A Question

[Buttermilk]

Just out of curiosity I have a question I would like to ask

I live in Scotland (it took rocket science to work that out ). Scotland is/was considered a very religious country, and since the Reformation the main churches have been variations of Presbyterianism. These various churches are allegedly Calvinistic and so one would assume that they take the stance that all Christians are Elect. That being the case do you think it was right that these churches dictated how everyone in Scotland should live their lives. By that I mean (and is still largely the case on the Islands but not really so much now on Mainland Scotland) they dicatated that the only activity one should be doing on a Sunday is going to church and other Godly things - not secular activities.

Where does that leave the non Elect - should they be dictated to like this?

Surely if they are going to Hell anyway then they should be allowed to do what they like on a Sunday?

 

[cygnusx1]

Just out of curiosity I have a question I would like to ask

I live in Scotland (it took rocket science to work that out ). Scotland is/was considered a very religious country, and since the Reformation the main churches have been variations of Presbyterianism. These various churches are allegedly Calvinistic and so one would assume that they take the stance that all Christians are Elect. That being the case do you think it was right that these churches dictated how everyone in Scotland should live their lives. By that I mean (and is still largely the case on the Islands but not really so much now on Mainland Scotland) they dicatated that the only activity one should be doing on a Sunday is going to church and other Godly things - not secular activities.

Where does that leave the non Elect - should they be dictated to like this?

Surely if they are going to Hell anyway then they should be allowed to do what they like on a Sunday?

Hi there Buttermilk
ahhhhhhh so many questions within one question , I would say no person and no church can dictate anything to anyone , Church and state may sound ideal but the persecuted Church soon becomes the persecuting Church .
Now as for The Church's in Scotland , yes the mainland is mainly Arminian , the Highlands still have a strong Calvinistic emphasis , and with that usually comes the strong sabbatarian views.
Personally I am non sabbatarian , and think any day is good for a day of rest , yet the early Church did meet on a set day (Sunday) and it makes some sense to hold meetings on a regualar basis , but as for Rules on the Sabbath , I don't believe there are any , unless we desire to go back under the Law as a covenant.
I would be strongly opposed to anyone making rules including Tything for others , unless it is coming from within , what good will it do , it will create hypocrites,,,,,,,,, see the Leading Pharisees.

 

[Buttermilk]

What about things like shops being open?

It is only fairly recently that shops have been allowed to open on a Sunday in Scotland - the churches kept them shut (as opposed to England and Wales where it is an actual legal thing).

As you say Mainland central belt Scotland is now a lot more lenient than the Highlands and Islands where shops remain shut and only genuine travellers can get a meal in an hotel on a Sunday

 

[cygnusx1]

What about things like shops being open?

It is only fairly recently that shops have been allowed to open on a Sunday in Scotland - the churches kept them shut (as opposed to England and Wales where it is an actual legal thing).

As you say Mainland central belt Scotland is now a lot more lenient than the Highlands and Islands where shops remain shut and only genuine travellers can get a meal in an hotel on a Sunday

well I am not a Sabbatarian , I don't even think the Lord's day (Sunday) is the Sabbath (Saturday) that is why Seventh Day Adventists get a bit between their teeth and love to bang on about how good they are and how bad every Christian is.......

so if shops want to open , let them open , as long as they don't force anyone who is a Sabbatarian to work on a Sabbath , then fine, otherwise they are overstepping their jurisdiction.

Just consider how many people have to work on a sunday (and saturday)
Armed Forces = hundreds of thousands
Police
Hospitals
Old peoples homes
Ambulance
Fire brigade

and then there are teachers who mark up home work on a Sunday ........

as I say I am not a Sabbatarian , so I just get my days rest when I can.

The law was made for man but many spend there time making man FOR the LAW!

 

[rnmomof7]

What about things like shops being open?

It is only fairly recently that shops have been allowed to open on a Sunday in Scotland - the churches kept them shut (as opposed to England and Wales where it is an actual legal thing).

As you say Mainland central belt Scotland is now a lot more lenient than the Highlands and Islands where shops remain shut and only genuine travellers can get a meal in an hotel on a Sunday

Many civil laws have their roots in Church law or scripture.
Canada was never a Calvinist Country yet they just eliminated the Sunday "blue laws" this year i believe.
They had separate entrances to taverns for men and women.

Actually I just read that Calvin did not believe in church states.

The US constitution was written by a primarily Calvinist group.


As I grow older I have met more libertarian Calvinists than one might think.
Calvinists take seriously "render to Caesar what is Caesars "

 

[Jon_]

You know, I was wondering. Is Scotland really all that religious? I mean, 28% of the country professes no religion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland#Religion.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Buttermilk]

You know, I was wondering. Is Scotland really all that religious? I mean, 28% of the country professes no religion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland#Religion.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

And I believe everything I read in an online website such such as that

But also em........ do the maths that leaves - that leaves 72 % who do profess a religion 65% being Christian.

It may be a few years since I was at school, but when I was there 72% was a much greater perecentage than 28%,.

 

[Jon_]

And I believe everything I read in an online website such such as that

But also em........ do the maths that leaves - that leaves 72 % who do profess a religion 65% being Christian.

It may be a few years since I was at school, but when I was there 72% was a much greater perecentage than 28%,.

Easy, sister. I profess my MacNicol heritage proudly. My only point is that 28% is an high proportion of non-religious persons. All I was wondering is how pervasive that worldview had become within society. That is, has Scotland become as secular as America?

The statistic is about as accurate as they come, by the way. It comes from the 2001 Census.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Elderone]

And I believe everything I read in an online website such such as that

But also em........ do the maths that leaves - that leaves 72 % who do profess a religion 65% being Christian.

It may be a few years since I was at school, but when I was there 72% was a much greater perecentage than 28%,.

Item one - Non-elect being dictated too.

There have been these thoughts for decades, "it isn't right cramming your religion down our throats" or "you can't legislate morality". Actually you can legislate morality and here in the U.S. the laws have been Biblically based for hundreds of years. Now that has changed with the irreligious being more prevelant and the laws have been liberalized. I for one do not believe the situation is better, by any stretch of the imagination. When society has millions locked up, abortions at about 40 MILLION, just to mention two items, that doesn't strike me as good.

Item two. Polls

These polls about the number of Christians in any particular country are hog wash. The came out with a very large number for the U.S. and from the church membership rolls, which are decreasing, things didn't add up. It is my theory that when people are asked their religion they answer Christian because they are not something else, and the truth be told most of the respondents don't have a clue as to what Christianity really is. They could more honestly be called church attendees.

The world would be in a much better state if there actually were the massive number of Christians as has been reported.

 

[Buttermilk]

I don't really want to take this thread any more OT than it already is. I am still interested in peoples opinions to my OP, but just a few passing comments on the second part of the last post:

These polls about the number of Christians in any particular country are hog wash.

Yes I agree - there are lies, more lies and statistics

The came out with a very large number for the U.S. and from the church membership rolls, which are decreasing, things didn't add up. It is my theory that when people are asked their religion they answer Christian because they are not something else, and the truth be told most of the respondents don't have a clue as to what Christianity really is.

Sadly true and especially so in the West of Scotland. Protestants and Catholics "fight in the name of religion", and it ususlly involves a couple of well known football teams (Rangers and Celtic). most have never been near a church in their life and don't actually know what they are allegedly fighting about.

They could more honestly be called church attendees.

Sadly most can't even be called that

The world would be in a much better state if there actually were the massive number of Christians as has been reported.

True - but if they are not elected...........................who's fault is that?

Disclaimer - I'm playing Devil's advocate with the above statement - I totally respect the views of all Christians including Calvinsists, even if I don't agree with them, but I am trying to illustrate my point to the statement above it

Easy, sister. I profess my MacNicol heritage proudly.

My only point is that 28% is an high proportion of non-religious persons.

High proportion? when I was learning maths I was taught that 28% was just over 1/4, that leaves 3/4 of the population. It is all relative what you deem a high percentage of course, but I would take the other view and say that IMHO a large percentage are religious. I am am not saying that is actually the case, I am just giving you my interpretation on the statistics you quoted.

All I was wondering is how pervasive that worldview had become within society. That is, has Scotland become as secular as America?

Yes Scotland is secular; whether it is as secular as America, I don't know having never been there. Of the UK though Scotland is the most religious country. In comparison to the rest of Europe I am unsure. I have visited several European countries but I can't decide.

The statistic is about as accurate as they come, by the way. It comes from the 2001 Census.['quote]
I am not disputing your statistics, but at the end of the day they are just that - statistics. It is your interpretation of them I am at varience (good statistical word there ) with.

 

[Elderone]

True - but if they are not elected...........................who's fault is that?

God is working His plan and He knows what He is doing.

Ro 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to [His] purpose.

Disclaimer - I'm playing Devil's advocate with the above statement - I totally respect the views of all Christians including Calvinsists, even if I don't agree with them, but I am trying to illustrate my point to the statement above it

Understood.

 

[Imblessed]

Jon: My only point is that 28% is an high proportion of non-religious persons.

buttercup: High proportion? when I was learning maths I was taught that 28% was just over 1/4, that leaves 3/4 of the population. It is all relative what you deem a high percentage of course, but I would take the other view and say that IMHO a large percentage are religious. I am am not saying that is actually the case, I am just giving you my interpretation on the statistics you quoted.

I think we are seeing a case of the glass being half empty vs half full here!!!

 

[Buttermilk]

I think we are seeing a case of the glass being half empty vs half full here!!!

I don't know how they teach maths in America, but 72% a lot more than half in Scotland

 

[Elderone]

I don't know how they teach maths in America, but 72% a lot more than half in Scotland

The government school system in the U.S. is abysmal, the universities not a lot better.

 

[Buttermilk]

Any more comments opinions on my original post?

 

[Lockheed]

This has to do with theonomy, and ones view thereof. That said, I think if the governing body of a particular nation is Christian, than God's Law should therefore be the law of the land... at current no such 'Christian nation' exists to my knowledge.

 

[JJB]

We try to keep Sundays as our family day. A day for celebrating the gifts God has given us through worship and remembering what God has done for us. But we have to make a concerted effort for this to happen as stores and restaurants and other things are open on Sundays. It also means no team sports for our children, since so many baseball, soccer league games take place on Sunday mornings!

As for forcing others to follow "blue laws", as they are called here in the States -- I think that's unfair. Sometimes I am envious of those who loll in Starbuck's with their Sunday morning papers -- until I look at my children and would prefer a walk in the woods with them!

 

[rnmomof7]

Buttermilk, as a Calvinist I agree with you.

The church has no right to impose its view on the secular world.

I do believe that even marriage should be regulated by the church.

It is not generally Calvinists that see the need to regulate the behavior of others as we do not believe one is saved by their behavior.

God has ordained governments so that the world has order and some peace and safety, they are not there to save anyone.

BTW as a nurse I worked Sundays and never felt I was out of Gods will.
I may go out to dinner or pick up something on sale..

I am free in Christ ! ( I know that all calvinists would not agree with that )