A question to atheists regarding belief

inlight12 · Sep 26, 2014

Let me just put two definitions here, first.
agnostic - a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God.
atheist - a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.

I have seen many times atheists say that they do not have a belief in god. Rather they have a lack of belief regarding god. So not only do they not believe in a god, the belief or disbelief itself does not exist.

But whenever an agnostics say that they are neither atheists nor theists, and they identify as a separate category from both groups, atheists jump on the moment, asking "But, you must have a personal belief regarding the concept of god, right? You can't have heard the concept of god and not have formed any belief regarding this." In my experience, almost all the atheists who have met an agnostic, who said that he is neither atheist or theist, tried to convince him that he cannot be a separate group from atheists or theists. He can either be agnostic atheist or agnostic theist. (If you are an atheist and acknowledge that agnostics can be a separate group without being atheists or theists, then you need not answer my question.)

So I want to ask the atheists. Which one is it, 'lack of belief of god can exist' or 'there must be a belief or disbelief regrading god'?

N.B. By belief in god I mean belief in existence of god.

bhsmte · Sep 26, 2014

inlight12 said:
Let me just put two definitions here, first.
agnostic - a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God.
atheist - a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.

I have seen many times atheists say that they do not have a belief in god. Rather they have a lack of belief regarding god. So not only do they not believe in a god, the belief or disbelief itself does not exist.

But whenever an agnostics say that they are neither atheists nor theists, and they identify as a separate category from both groups, atheists jump on the moment, asking "But, you must have a personal belief regarding the concept of god, right? You can't have heard the concept of god and not have formed any belief regarding this." In my experience, almost all the atheists who have met an agnostic, who said that he is neither atheist or theist, tried to convince him that he cannot be a separate group from atheists or theists. He can either be agnostic atheist or agnostic theist. (If you are an atheist and acknowledge that agnostics can be a separate group without being atheists or theists, then you need not answer my question.)

So I want to ask the atheists. Which one is it, 'lack of belief of god can exist' or 'there must be a belief or disbelief regrading god'?

N.B. By belief in god I mean belief in existence of god.

I am an atheist towards personal Gods and my position is; the concepts of personal Gods (specifically Christian God) can not be reconciled with the reality of the world as we know it and is highly likely to not exist, IMO.

In regards to a universal, non personal God, I would say I am more agnostic.

BL2KTN · Sep 26, 2014

I think it all stems from Christopher Hitchins' argument that lack of belief is, in fact, atheism. I don't buy that. The word "agnostic" was invented for the very purpose of indicating "lack of position." Let's use astrology as an example:

If I believed in astrology, I would be pro-astrology. If I thought it was bunk, I would be anti-astrology. If I wasn't sure, I'd be agnostic about it. I don't see why that same system is misapplied to theism, atheism, and agnosticism.

inlight12 · Sep 26, 2014

bhsmte said:
I am an atheist towards personal Gods and my position is; the concepts of personal Gods (specifically Christian God) can not be reconciled with the reality of the world as we know it and is highly likely to not exist, IMO.

In regards to a universal, non personal God, I would say I am more agnostic.

So you're atheist towards personal god and agnostic towards universal god. Fine, you pass. Next.

N.B. Please don't distinguish between many personal or universal gods. If you are in doubt, use universal god or the concept of god.

GrowingSmaller · Sep 26, 2014

BlueLightningTN said:
I think it all stems from Christopher Hitchins' argument that lack of belief is, in fact, atheism. I don't buy that.

Wasnt if Anthony Flew who suggested lack of belief initially?

The word "agnostic" was invented for the very purpose of indicating "lack of position."

I thought it was originally used to mean "belief in an unknown God" - T H Huxley?

If I believed in astrology, I would be pro-astrology. If I thought it was bunk, I would be anti-astrology. If I wasn't sure, I'd be agnostic about it. I don't see why that same system is misapplied to theism, atheism, and agnosticism.

Agnostic means no knowledge. You still either believe or not. For instance some will say "I dont know, therefore I ought not affirm." And others will believe in unknown stuff, against the advice of the likes of the writer of "Ethics and Belief" (I forget his name at present, sorry).

Anyway, I may have it wrong, in which case apologies!

bhsmte · Sep 26, 2014

inlight12 said:
So you're atheist towards personal god and agnostic towards universal god. Fine, you pass. Next.

N.B. Please don't distinguish between many personal or universal gods. If you are in doubt, use universal god or the concept of god.

Fine, but I happen to think, the concepts of a universal non-personal God and a personal God, are light years apart.

inlight12 · Sep 26, 2014

GrowingSmaller said:
You still either believe or not.

Please explain, what is meant by "believe or not" in the context of existence of belief.

jayem · Sep 26, 2014

I'm a naturalist. I believe everything in the universe is purely a function of mass/energy and the fundamental forces of nature. So I reject the existence of any kind of god that is claimed to be supernatural, or exist in some realm beyond the natural world. I can't prove that absolutely, but I believe it with the same degree of certainty that I reject the existence of telekinesis, and reincarnation, and Bigfoot, and a second gunman on the grassy knoll.

GrowingSmaller · Sep 26, 2014

inlight12 said:
Please explain, what is meant by "believe or not" in the context of existence of belief.

You either believe, disbelieve or lack belief.

Eg. I believe in astrology, I disbelieve in it, or I just lack belief without actually going so far as to deny it (ie to disbelieve).

inlight12 · Sep 26, 2014

jayem said:
I'm a naturalist. I believe everything in the universe is purely a function of mass/energy and the fundamental forces of nature. So I reject the existence of any kind of god that is claimed to be supernatural, or exist in some realm beyond the natural world. I can't prove that absolutely, but I believe it with the same degree of certainty that I reject the existence of telekinesis, and reincarnation, and Bigfoot, and a second gunman on the grassy knoll.

That is not the answer to my question.

GrowingSmaller said:
You either believe, disbelieve or lack belief.

Eg. I believe in astrology, I disbelieve in it, or I just lack belief without actually going so far as to deny it (ie to disbelieve).

OK.

PsychoSarah · Sep 26, 2014

inlight12 said:
Let me just put two definitions here, first.
agnostic - a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God.
atheist - a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.

I have seen many times atheists say that they do not have a belief in god. Rather they have a lack of belief regarding god. So not only do they not believe in a god, the belief or disbelief itself does not exist.

But whenever an agnostics say that they are neither atheists nor theists, and they identify as a separate category from both groups, atheists jump on the moment, asking "But, you must have a personal belief regarding the concept of god, right? You can't have heard the concept of god and not have formed any belief regarding this." In my experience, almost all the atheists who have met an agnostic, who said that he is neither atheist or theist, tried to convince him that he cannot be a separate group from atheists or theists. He can either be agnostic atheist or agnostic theist. (If you are an atheist and acknowledge that agnostics can be a separate group without being atheists or theists, then you need not answer my question.)

So I want to ask the atheists. Which one is it, 'lack of belief of god can exist' or 'there must be a belief or disbelief regrading god'?

N.B. By belief in god I mean belief in existence of god.

Agnosticism is a knowledge statement, while theism/atheism is a belief system. I am an agnostic atheist, I do not claim to have any real evidence or knowledge in regards to whether or not deities in general exist. As an atheist, I lack the belief in any deities. Technically, you could claim to be agnostic about cars or time travel, because the term agnostic means "without knowledge". It would be a weird way to use the word, but not technically incorrect.

You can also be agnostic and undecided in regards to religion. But I think those people just call themselves agnostic and nothing else.

inlight12 · Sep 26, 2014

PsychoSarah said:
Agnosticism is a knowledge statement, while theism/atheism is a belief system. I am an agnostic atheist, I do not claim to have any real evidence or knowledge in regards to whether or not deities in general exist. As an atheist, I lack the belief in any deities. Technically, you could claim to be agnostic about cars or time travel, because the term agnostic means "without knowledge". It would be a weird way to use the word, but not technically incorrect.

You can also be agnostic and undecided in regards to religion. But I think those people just call themselves agnostic and nothing else.

So according to you, an agnostic atheist is someone who does not have knowledge of god AND lacks any existence of belief regarding god.
But a simply agnostic is someone who does not have knowledge of god AND is undecided in regards to religion.

So when you say undecided, what does it mean regarding existence of belief in god, in the person's mind?
Because undecided means he lacks the existence of the belief. But that would make him an agnostic atheist.

EDIT:added a line.

PsychoSarah · Sep 26, 2014

inlight12 said:
So according to you, an agnostic atheist is someone who does not have knowledge of god AND lacks any existence of belief regarding god.
But a simply agnostic is someone who does not have knowledge of god AND is undecided in regards to religion.

So when you say undecided, what does it mean regarding existence of belief in god, in the person's mind?

An undecided person doesn't lean strongly towards having belief or really lacking it, or could be someone who just hasn't really thought about it.

inlight12 · Sep 26, 2014

PsychoSarah said:
An undecided person doesn't lean strongly towards having belief or really lacking it, or could be someone who just hasn't really thought about it.

You cannot "lean strongly towards having belief or really lacking it". You either believe or disbelieve existence of something or do not know about it at all. In the latter case you don't have any belief to start with. Same goes for someone who hasn't really thought about it.

PsychoSarah · Sep 26, 2014

inlight12 said:
You cannot "lean strongly towards having belief or really lacking it". You either believe or disbelieve existence of something or do not know about it at all. In the latter case you don't have any belief to start with. Same goes for someone who hasn't really thought about it.

Why do we have to be black and white about this? Are there not varying degrees of how strongly people feel in their belief? My sister is one of these inbetweens, you can have it where you simply don't know and don't feel strongly about either position

inlight12 · Sep 26, 2014

PsychoSarah said:
Why do we have to be black and white about this? Are there not varying degrees of how strongly people feel in their belief? My sister is one of these inbetweens, you can have it where you simply don't know and don't feel strongly about either position

A resounding no. I cannot accept something like 22.794% believe, 38.056% disbelieve and 39.150% lack the belief itself as a legitimate state of mind.

bhsmte · Sep 26, 2014

inlight12 said:
A resounding no. I cannot accept something like 22.794% believe, 38.056% disbelieve and 39.150% lack the belief itself as a legitimate state of mind.

Why not?

Would this mean, you are 100% sure that the God you believe in exists and there is zero possibility you could be wrong?

For myself, I am 99% sure the Christian God as described does not exist, because of the realities of the world we live in and the typical description of the Christian God can not be reconciled for me. Could I be wrong? Sure, I could, but I highly doubt that I am.

I am not 100% sure the sun will come up tomorrow, but my confidence level is around; 99.9999999999999999999999 that it will.

Paradoxum · Sep 26, 2014

I don't know if I understand the question, but you are an atheist if you don't positively believe in a God. So that would mean some people who claim to be agnostic are atheists.

I called myself agnostic for a while because I wasn't ready to say I was atheist. Some people find the word 'atheist' a little scary, but I think it's right to accept the truth about yourself.

inlight12 · Sep 26, 2014

bhsmte said:
Why not?

Would this mean, you are 100% sure that the God you believe in exists and there is zero possibility you could be wrong?

If you correctly understood the case I wrote it would mean, you believe God exists AND God does not exist AND does not have any belief at all, simultaneously.

bhsmte said:
For myself, I am 99% sure the Christian God as described does not exist, because of the realities of the world we live in and the typical description of the Christian God can not be reconciled for me. Could I be wrong? Sure, I could, but I highly doubt that I am.

I am not 100% sure the sun will come up tomorrow, but my confidence level is around; 99.9999999999999999999999 that it will.

What would a 50% belief and 50% disbelief in God be like? I know God exists this second. Next, second. Poof its gone.

bhsmte · Sep 26, 2014

inlight12 said:
If you correctly understood the case I wrote it would mean, you believe God exists AND God does not exist AND does not have any belief at all, simultaneously.

What would a 50% belief and 50% disbelief in God be like? I know God exists this second. Next, second. Poof its gone.

Quite clearly, you are a strong black and white thinker and don't like any grey, but grey exists, if people are honest with themselves.

You didn't answer my question, are you 100% certain the God you believe in exists and there is zero percent chance you are wrong about your belief?

A 50% certainty of belief would be just that, you have some information that points to belief and some that doesn't and you are honest enough, to acknowledge both.

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