A Question on the Covering

[Argon88]

My question is on 1 Corinthians: 11, 2-16 and the whole issue of the covering. I have a Mennonite background and have allways been taught that it is a right if not imparitive for women to ware a covering. But since I'm a open minded person I would like to see the other side of the argument.

I personally don't think as big an issue as they make it. No, I don't consider myself as a Mennonite. Infact I don't like to say I'm of a sertain denomination. I prefer to say I'm just a Christain becouse it's the christian that's the church not the building...

 

[Argon88]

Hmm, did I put this in the wrong place or does no one want to say anything?


Well, I think Paul is saying that women should have thier head covered when they pray, and men shouldn't. I'll do some more reseach...

 

[Foundthelight]

My question is on 1 Corinthians: 11, 2-16 and the whole issue of the covering. I have a Mennonite background and have allways been taught that it is a right if not imparitive for women to ware a covering. But since I'm a open minded person I would like to see the other side of the argument.

I personally don't think as big an issue as they make it. No, I don't consider myself as a Mennonite. Infact I don't like to say I'm of a sertain denomination. I prefer to say I'm just a Christain becouse it's the christian that's the church not the building...

My understanding of this requires a look at the cultural situation in Corinth. The temple prostitutes were supposedly the only women who went around in public with shaven heads and without headcovering.

The women in the Church in Corinth took the teaching of freedom from the law in Christ to mean that they were subject to no one other than Christ.
They chose to show off (flaunt) their freedom by removing their headcoverings.

Paul said that by making themselves appear only a little better than the temple prostitutes they were actually dishonoring Christ and His headship over the Church. He also said that they were bring dishonor to their husbands at the same time. He uses the analogy of God being the Head of Christ, being the Head of man, being the Head of woman.

So, he was saying don't dishonor your husbands and the Church by running around in this fashion. In other words, in that society, they were creating a lack of respect for the Church among the unbelievers, thus hindering the message in the community.

In eastern societies today the use of covering to show respect is still the norm. In western societies it is not.

 

[Foundthelight]

As a further note, there is a recurring theme in Paul's writings that we should not do things which will create disrespect for the Church, while at the same time maintaining a high moral standard.

In western society removing a headcovering will not create a general condemnation and lack of respect.

Lowering moral standards will. We are to curb our tongues and keep our bodies pure. We are to live our lives to be an example to the unsaved.

These things we can do with the help of the Holy Spirit, God's love for us, and our love for all saved and unsaved.

 

[Tentmaker]

Foundthelight,

I Corinthians was not written by Paul(Saul). Attributing its contents to him is an inaccuracy and leads to mis-interpretations.

The epistle was written at Philippi by Stepanas, Fortunatus, Achaicus, and Timotheus.

Certain portions of the work contradicts the Pauline Doctrine.

 

[Tentmaker]

John Chrysostom (340-407 a.d.)



a. Chrysostom was the great preacher of Antioch. The following excerpts are taken from Homily XXVI (1 Corinthians 11:2-16).

b. Chrysostom identifies the problem Paul addresses in 1 Corinthians 11:2-16 as "Their women used to pray and prophesy unveiled and with their head bare."10 c. Especially to the point of a woman needing a separate head covering other than her long hair (cf. 1 Cor. 11:15) is the following remark: "' And if it
be given her for a covering,' say you, 'wherefore need she add another
covering?' That not nature only, but also her own will may have part in her
acknowledgment of subjection. For that thou oughtest to be covered nature
herself by anticipation enacted a law. Add now, I pray, thine own part also,
that thou mayest not seem to subvert the very laws of nature; a proof of
most insolent rashness, to buffet not only with us, but with nature also."11

 

[Foundthelight]

Foundthelight,

I Corinthians was not written by Paul(Saul). Attributing its contents to him is an inaccuracy and leads to mis-interpretations.

The epistle was written at Philippi by Stepanas, Fortunatus, Achaicus, and Timotheus.

Certain portions of the work contradicts the Pauline Doctrine.

That is an interesting position on the authorship of this document and contrary to all the study aids I have. Please cite the resources you are using. I would like to read them.

 

[Tentmaker]

Foundthelight,

The shortest route is go to the KJV of the Bible. Look at the very end of I or II Corinthians. You will find that neither were authored by Paul.

 

[Foundthelight]

Foundthelight,

The shortest route is go to the KJV of the Bible. Look at the very end of I or II Corinthians. You will find that neither were authored by Paul.

1Co 16:19 The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.

1Co 16:20 All the brethren greet you. Greet ye one another with an holy kiss.

1Co 16:21 The salutation of me Paul with mine own hand.

1Co 16:22 If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.

1Co 16:23 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.

1Co 16:24 My love be with you all in Christ Jesus. Amen.

I don't see it here in 1 Co.

2Co 13:10 Therefore I write these things being absent, lest being present I should use sharpness, according to the power which the Lord hath given me to edification, and not to destruction.

2Co 13:11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

2Co 13:12 Greet one another with an holy kiss.

2Co 13:13 All the saints salute you.

2Co 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

I don't see it here either.

Perhaps your KJV has some text that mine lacks.

 

[Tentmaker]

Foundthelight,

You will find them as italicized footnotes to each epistle. Take II Corinthians for example, there we find this:

The second epistle to the Corinthians was written from Philippi, a city of Macedonia, by Titus and Lucas.

 

[colossi3]

Foundthelight,

I Corinthians was not written by Paul(Saul). Attributing its contents to him is an inaccuracy and leads to mis-interpretations.

The epistle was written at Philippi by Stepanas, Fortunatus, Achaicus, and Timotheus.

Certain portions of the work contradicts the Pauline Doctrine.

seya: Since they [the three: Timothy - my dear son; "Only Lucas is with me -with Paul] were of one mind and spirit, the epistles are inspired of the Holy Spirit.

 

[SonWorshipper]

This may help with those scriptures of pauls:

Should a woman cover her head and why?

 

[Tentmaker]

seya: Since they [the three: Timothy - my dear son; "Only Lucas is with me -with Paul] were of one mind and spirit, the epistles are inspired of the Holy Spirit.

And the various writers of Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, Philemon, and Hebrews which all in some way contradict the Pauline Doctrine as set forth in Romans can be explained away by this assumption?

 

[Foundthelight]

Foundthelight,

You will find them as italicized footnotes to each epistle. Take II Corinthians for example, there we find this:

The second epistle to the Corinthians was written from Philippi, a city of Macedonia, by Titus and Lucas.

Tentmaker,

Footnotes are placed in Bibles by the publisher. The translators of the KJV never doubted the authorship of the Pauline epistles.

Who was the publisher of your KJV Bible?

I will be blunt in saying that what you are writing flies in the face of most scholarly research and the testimony of the early church writers, such as Eusebius.

 

[Foundthelight]

This may help with those scriptures of pauls:

Should a woman cover her head and why?

Interesting article. The author neglects the headship of the father over his daughters. All unmarried and married women were required to wear a headcovering as a sign of respect.

 

[Tentmaker]

Tentmaker,

Footnotes are placed in Bibles by the publisher. The translators of the KJV never doubted the authorship of the Pauline epistles.

Who was the publisher of your KJV Bible?

I will be blunt in saying that what you are writing flies in the face of most scholarly research and the testimony of the early church writers, such as Eusebius.

Foundthelight,

No serious student of the Bible argues that the mentioned epistles were authored by Paul.

Your claim that the translators of the KJV never doubted the Pauline authorship in highly inaccurate. The fact is that some early contributors saw Paul as the First Great Heretic.

It has been a while since I read the thoughts of Eusebius. So I'll defer till a later time for a response to your suggestion concerning him.

I should say that Eusebius (270-340) was an Arian Christian and those against him were many. Most of his works have been refuted and not much trust can be invested in them.

 

[Foundthelight]

Foundthelight,

No serious student of the Bible argues that the mentioned epistles were authored by Paul.

Your claim that the translators of the KJV never doubted the Pauline authorship in highly inaccurate. The fact is that some early contributors saw Paul as the First Great Heretic.

It has been a while since I read the thoughts of Eusebius. So I'll defer till a later time for a response to your suggestion concerning him.

I am still waiting for your references and the publisher if your bible.

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

Foundthelight,

The shortest route is go to the KJV of the Bible. Look at the very end of I or II Corinthians. You will find that neither were authored by Paul.

I must be blind, because that isn't at the end of my KJV either. If that was the case on what you are saying, then why does it say, THE FIRST EPISTLE OF PAUL, in 1st Cor., and say, THE SECOND EPISTLE OF PAUL, in 2nd Cor.?

 

[Tentmaker]

I am still waiting for your references and the publisher if your bible.

Forgive my omission. The KJV I use was published by Cambridge University Press.

 

[Foundthelight]

Foundthelight,

No serious student of the Bible argues that the mentioned epistles were authored by Paul.

Tentmaker,

That is a pretty broad statement about serious scholarship. I have attached a link to a portion of a Doctoral Thesis written in 1993. I recommend that you look at the entire document

http://bible.ovc.edu/terry/dissertation/2_2-lit.htm

Also I will quote from this document. The references are listed in the Thesis linked above.

2.2 Literary Concerns

The Authorship, Authenticity, and Dating of I Corinthians

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The fact that I Corinthians was written by Paul to the Christians at Corinth is beyond dispute. Barrett states, "No serious scholar questions it" (1968, 11). And Craig notes, "It has been denied only by fanciful scholars who have looked upon all the Pauline correspondence as falsifications from the second century. No letter has better external testimony than this one" (1953, 13). It is referred to by I Clement 37:5; 47:1-3; 49:5 (just 45 years after it was written); Ignatius to the Ephesians 16:1; 18:1; to the Romans 5:1; to the Philadelphians 3:3 (about A.D. 110); Justin Martyr (Dialogue with Trypho 33); Athenagoras (On the Resurrection of the Dead 18); and numerous times by Irenaeus, Tertullian, and Clement of Alexandria (Craig 1953, 13; and Feine, Behm, and Kümmel 1966, 202).
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