A question for theistic evolutionists

[starelda]

I'm feeling drawn back to Christianity but I obviously have various doubts which I need to iron out. When I was a Christian I looked at the various creation theories and theistic evolution made the most sense to me. which is why this question is directed to theistic evolutionists.

One thing that bothered me was how God seemed to become a "God of the gaps" for me. It seemed that I had gaps in my knowledge of evolution and the origins of the universe and so God filled those gaps in a "I can't understand it, so God did it" kinda way. So I was wondering if others had this issue and how they dealt with it and also more information on what you believe as a theistic evolutionist may be useful to me.

 

[Rafael]

I agree that the science and knowledge of men will eventually be able to explain much of how God is able to do what He has done, but I also think we will always be part of the love relationship with Him that envolves a portion of mystery that makes it all satisfying and worthwhile. Being the object of God's love is a wonderful thing, and, IMO, it will always envolve anticipation, expectation and surprise.
I think God could have given us a manuel on how the universe worked, etc., but love was the greatest thing that He says is eternal. Exploring all that love means and entails and finding out experiencially by particiapating in God's love is what seems to be more important as I read the Bible. I get a kick out of how we, as man, struggle with the basic elemental powers, to understand them, but still have little control over them and the many dimensions we cannot see.....; yet we so often feel we just have to stand up and tell others how it was made or complain about not seeing or hearing from the "unseen" God whose works are so obvious and seen. All things seen are made of the unseen. I still see nobody making a cell of life live or a blade of grass. Why do we think it important - all these mechanisms of life, when all we have to do is really "live", and God tells us what true life is in the scriptures He inspired. That is something we can give to others by love - true life by living it ourselves.
Don't get me wrong. I enjoy science and trying to apply it to all the works of God. It leaves me with a sense of great expectation and awe that He would have anything to do with me...especially love me.

 

[Dondi]

I don't worry about gaps. I believe that whether God did it in 6 days or 15 billion years, God created the universe and every living thing. There is just too much diversity, too much complexity, too much in microbiology and biology, too much in the order of things to lead me to belief that there had to be an intelligence behind all this. Coupling this with my experience and relationship with God, I am satisfied that God is a reality.

I was helped, however, by several books by author Gerold Schroeder, who has some good insight from a theistic evolutionary viewpoint. His website is here:

http://www.geraldschroeder.com/

 

[gluadys]

Starelda

One of the things that attracted me to theistic evolution is that it gets rid of the "god of the gaps" concept. Everything we know about the universe and everything we don't know about the universe comes from God. We don't have to stuff God only in the darkness of our ignorance, but we can also see His glory in what we have come to understand.

Time and time again, when I have learned something scientific, I have been bowled over in amazement by the elegant simplicity and wonderful complexity of it all. (Amazing too, how these often seem to go together.) To me, these are the fingerprints of God, and they are much clearer in what we do understand than in what we do not understand yet.

It reminds me of a line from Gerard Manly Hopkin's poem "To Night". He begins by describing the anxiety of Adam and Eve as the sky darkens and they lose sight of the things around them. Then, he describes the appearance of the stars:

"Then Hesperus with the host of heaven came,
And lo! creation widened in man's view."

That is how I see the increasing scientific knowledge we have--as windows that widen creation in our view by showing how much more magnificent it is than we first dreamed in our ignorance.

Of course, there is a lot more to faith than its relationship with science. To some extent its relationship with science is just a sideshow. What Christianity teaches us about love and relationships and how to live in peace with each other and with the planet is much more important.

Dondi

With all due respect to Gerald Schroeder, while he has some interesting ideas, they are not in line with mainstream science or theistic evolution. In fact, as a physicist, he does not have a very good grasp on evolution and repeats many creationist misrepresentations of the theory of evolution.

A much more mainstream version of theistic evolution is "Finding Darwin's God" by Kenneth Miller.

 

[Key]

God, is the author of life.

Not a God of Gaps, if we find a fossil of some type of animal and say it progressed a specific way (assuming we are right), then maybe it did, but if it did, then that was because God wanted it to progress in that manner, not because "It just happened"

That was until man decided that they could figure our a better way to change life, I guess.

God Bless

Key

 

[Calminian]

I'm feeling drawn back to Christianity but I obviously have various doubts which I need to iron out. When I was a Christian I looked at the various creation theories and theistic evolution made the most sense to me. which is why this question is directed to theistic evolutionists.

One thing that bothered me was how God seemed to become a "God of the gaps" for me. It seemed that I had gaps in my knowledge of evolution and the origins of the universe and so God filled those gaps in a "I can't understand it, so God did it" kinda way. So I was wondering if others had this issue and how they dealt with it and also more information on what you believe as a theistic evolutionist may be useful to me.

Hi Starela. I never got as far as theistic evolution but I did dabble in mixing modern scientific theories with the Bible. I was into the gap theory and then later the day-age theory. I think you are perceptive in your "God of the gaps" dilemma. This is simply the practice of placing God where no naturalistic theory can be formulated. The problem is, a naturalistic theory can always be formulated. When Jesus made the wine at Cana, He did not need to stay within the confines natural law as science understands them. He skipped and bypassed processes to make the product He wanted instantaneously. But if one were to examine that wine soon after it was made, they would be able to form a natural logical theory of its origin. But that natural logical theory would have been wrong. The wine was produced by a miracle!

Here's the interesting part. If a believer approached that wine with a "God of the gaps" mentality, he would conclude the wine was indeed a product of God, he would just conclude it was made a long time ago. He would push God into the gap where no natural explanation existed. This is exactly what I was doing with my compromised views on origins.

It's important to understand that God's actions are not limited to the confines of scientific law. Jesus came to earth and violated scientific understandings every day. He was our Creator incarnate and we can learn from His life much about the Methods of the Creator. If creation was indeed a miracle, then perhaps science isn't the best tool of investigation.

Just some thoughts. Hope they help.

 

[FranciscanJ]

Here's a site that gives a great in depth introduction to theistic evolution from an Anglican Professor. It helped me as I have been moving into the evolutionary creation perspective.

http://community.berea.edu/scienceandfaith/default.asp

It is very in depth though, and it would probably be easier to read comfortably if printed out.

'Finding Darwin's God' which Gluadys recommended, is a great book. It was the first TE book I read.

These are some suggested to me that I plan on reading:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/08...UTF8&coliid=I1UYSYT44KUK25&colid=7ZELFMV2C215

and

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/08...UTF8&coliid=I1UYSYT44KUK25&colid=7ZELFMV2C215

Here's one by Francis Collins,
http://www.amazon.com/Language-God-..._bbs_sr_1/103-4820336-7372632?ie=UTF8&s=books

These guys are all Theistic Evolutionists, or BioLogos as Francis Collins likes to call us (I think its great).

And even with my 'wet behind the ears' knowledge, I don't see God as a God of the Gaps, but actively involved in our lives as well as in the beauty of nature.

 

[EmbracingHim]

I'm feeling drawn back to Christianity but I obviously have various doubts which I need to iron out. When I was a Christian I looked at the various creation theories and theistic evolution made the most sense to me. which is why this question is directed to theistic evolutionists.

One thing that bothered me was how God seemed to become a "God of the gaps" for me. It seemed that I had gaps in my knowledge of evolution and the origins of the universe and so God filled those gaps in a "I can't understand it, so God did it" kinda way. So I was wondering if others had this issue and how they dealt with it and also more information on what you believe as a theistic evolutionist may be useful to me.

Good questions, Starelda.

I do not see any gaps, just the absence of human knowledge. The scriptures do not focus on evolution, although in Genesis we note that God adds to His creations in the seven days the world was created.

I think God's creations are adaptive toward life -- meaning they withstand.

I think a lot of science is incorrect about their theories on evolution. The changes we see really are in the creator's hands to my belief. This at least makes the most sense to me in consideration of the gaps that the scientific community has left open as well as the incorrect theories.

I think holding all the answers of the universe is too much for one person -- although I used to want to know everything. After years in college and years of study...I still know little. . I do not however see any gaps in scripture as far as God's plans. In fact, I threw my studies into scripture and found so much congruency between the OT and NT focusing on God's plan that I am convinced that humans only guess at what they do not know (PhD or not). There will be a time in accordance with scripture that we will see more fully though. Hugs and I am glad you are drawn back to God. He keeps a grip on His children.

Oh...one last scriptural thought...remember that God's days are different than humans. 2 Peter 3:8 (noting that time frames were spoken of above in consideration of God's creation of the earth). Sorry I don't have more to offer.

 

[Stinker]

The difference between a Christian's belief that God used evolution to bring things this far, and a secularist's belief of evolution, is that the Christian believes that God used supernatural acts in the steps along the way.

Theistic Evolutionists believe that God used the kind of communication found in the first 3 chapters of the book of Genesis because that was the best way to communicate to them at the time.

 

[DailyBlessings]

It's not so much that God used supernatural steps to guide evolution, as it is that evolution was God's plan in the first place. You don't need to fix a machine that is running smoothly, and you don't need divine intervention to make the universe work properly, if it was perfectly designed.

Nor is God filling in gaps, since there aren't really gaps to fill, except in the realm of human knowledge. We can be confident that God had a role in the creation and nature of the universe regardless of his methods, but the creation itself is the best instructor of how creation takes place.

 

[InnocentOdion]

Hi stardela, glad you're feeling drawn back to Christianity!

If you have any questions, feel free to iron them out with me! Haha, just kidding. I've always believed in evolution to some extent, but when I was into creationism, I thought that evolution was a theory and there was no proof to it. Somehow I just became... an theistic evolutionist, you know?

I personally don't worry about the origins of the universe, I'm somewhere between creationism and theistic evolution.

The way I see it, the Bible explains why we're here. It says God created everything, it doesn't say how long it took him in a literal sense in my opinion. Not six days. Six æons - immeasurable periods of time, it could of been a day, a week, a million years, or even a billion years, who knows for sure?

I see evolution as how we got here, but God is still the Creator.

Hope this helps!

God bless,
IO

 

[rocklife]

I'm feeling drawn back to Christianity but I obviously have various doubts which I need to iron out. When I was a Christian I looked at the various creation theories and theistic evolution made the most sense to me. which is why this question is directed to theistic evolutionists.

One thing that bothered me was how God seemed to become a "God of the gaps" for me. It seemed that I had gaps in my knowledge of evolution and the origins of the universe and so God filled those gaps in a "I can't understand it, so God did it" kinda way. So I was wondering if others had this issue and how they dealt with it and also more information on what you believe as a theistic evolutionist may be useful to me.

just keep in focus Jesus is the savior of sins, and He will give us a Holy Spirit to guide us in our questions and seeking God and Truth. I also recommend continue in daily bible readings, especially New Testament, and be a doer. Jesus is the core of Christianity. I just want to warn not to get sidetracked on creationism, the message of the bible is mainly for repentance of sins and seeking salvation, life in good conscience. God bless

 

[Jaison]

Starelda,
I thank God for what you said:” I'm feeling drawn back to Christianity…”
Thank you my sister.
Studying fully about God and about the science in the creations will lead us time short, for our life is estimated something below 100 years. It will take more than 1000 years to study on the subject. After that period also you will find some big question marks which God himself has to come before you and clear it. I think it is a real foolery to know about our God through our limited knowledge as it is pre defined by Him. From my experience and my observations for the last 50 years of my life I think it is wise to believe God as real blindly or you can simply say there is no God blindly. I agree fully to that is what is written ‘fool will only say in his heart that there is no God.’
I agree fully with what my sister Embracing Him on what she said:
“I do not see any gaps, just the absence of human knowledge. The scriptures do not focus on evolution, although in Genesis we note that God adds to His creations in the seven days the world was created.”

For an example:
Think, that you made a pen by yours using your skill and materials and you gave a little knowledge to the pen to think about you to some limit you predefined. And that you are using the pen. Pen can not go and start writing because you have not given it in the “knowledge’. Only you could use the pen or the one whom you allow. Think that the pen started thinking of its creator. Pen stopped at a point where you made the limit of the “knowledge”. Pen can not think more. Only some question marks left for the finding of you not even your picture. It is because of that you haven’t given the pen the knowledge to make your picture. So that is the end limit of hard earned knowledge of the pen about its owner!!!
I suggest in the above story you substitute God in the place of the creator of the pen and you in the pace of the pen. Then I think on it, this will clear your doubt about “what is the gap’?
I agree with my sister Gluadys:
“That is how I see the increasing scientific knowledge we have--as windows that widen creation in our view by showing how much more magnificent it is than we first dreamed in our ignorance.”
I agree with my brother DailyBlessings:
“Nor is God filling in gaps, since there aren't really gaps to fill, except in the realm of human knowledge. We can be confident that God had a role in the creation and nature of the universe regardless of his methods, but the creation itself is the best instructor of how creation takes place.”
I agree with InnocentOdeon:
“I personally don't worry about the origins of the universe, I'm somewhere between creationism and theistic evolution”
I am of opinion as my brother Dondi:
“I don't worry about gaps. I believe that whether God did it in 6 days or 15 billion years, God created the universe and every living thing. There is just too much diversity, too much complexity, too much in microbiology and biology, too much in the order of things to lead me to belief that there had to be intelligence behind all this. Coupling this with my experience and relationship with God, I am satisfied that God is a reality.”
I agree with Rafael:
“Yet we so often feel we just have to stand up and tell others how it was made or complain about not seeing or hearing from the "unseen" God whose works are so obvious and seen. All things seen are made of the unseen.”



I also recommend you as Rocklife advice:
“Just keep in focus Jesus is the savior of sins, and He will give us a Holy Spirit to guide us in our questions and seeking God and Truth. I also recommend continue in daily bible readings, especially New Testament, and be a doer. Jesus is the core of Christianity. I just want to warn not to get sidetracked on creationism; the message of the bible is mainly for repentance of sins and seeking salvation, life in good conscience. God bless”

I think our ‘knowledge’ is limited to a limit predefined by our God when we are created!!!! Thinking more on the subject will lead to a vacuum!!! So my advice: Just believe in Him blindly!!!

JAISON

 

[starelda]

So my advice: Just believe in Him blindly!!!

There is no way I can do that.

The pull I was feeling back towards Christianity is gone, yet again. I don't think I will be coming back but thanks everyone for taking the time to try to answer my questions.

 

[Dondi]

There is no way I can do that.

The pull I was feeling back towards Christianity is gone, yet again. I don't think I will be coming back but thanks everyone for taking the time to try to answer my questions.

It shouldn't be the religion of Christianity that pulls you back anyway. It ought to be the Love of God.

If you ever desire to explore the possibility of coming back, my advise is to strip down everything you believe in Christianity and start fresh with just a relationship with God.

I suspect that you haven't really experienced the Love of God in your life.

Maybe you started your relationship with God out of the fear of going to hell. That you motivation is to avoid hell at all costs, so your relationship isn't based on love.

God doesn't want you worshipping Him because you are afraid of Him.

Here's the whole matter, starelda.

God wants us to know His love. God is love. But the resason we do not experience this is because sin has distorted our capacity to love. We are caught up in our vices, our anxieties, and our worries that we are blind to God's Love. We don't experience it because our hearts are impure.

Oh great, now what do we do.

Well, that's just it. We have to find out how we can get our hearts pure. Jesus said that if the Son of Man sets you free, you are free indeed. What God has done is break down that barrier of sin through Christ. What that enables us to do is obtain mercy from God, instead of that sense of impending doom that death seems to toss at us.

I know you are scared of death. We all are. And I know you are scared about what lies beyond. But bear with me for a second.

Forget for a moment that you aren't going to die. Forget for a moment that there is even a hell.

I ask you, do you have the capacity to love as God wants you to? Do you see that you sin keeps you from loving as you ought?

You will never find peace until you learn to love.

You are frustrated because you think God is not real in your life. You are seeking for signs, seeking other religions for Him. Trying to find God is some tangable way.

But God is found when we allow Him to be in our life. God is found in our relationship with Him and our relationship with others.

If you don't know how to love, go to God and ask Him to give you what you need. Acknowledge that you fall short and that He give you His Spirit and show you His Love.

Pour your heart to Him to change your life, not because you fear hell, but because you want that change in your life.

Salvation is not an end, but a means to an end. God doesn't just want to save you, He wants to change you. But the ball is in our court. We have to allow him into our life.

Do this as an experiment. John 14:21 says:

"He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him."

Don't view the commandments as a bunch of dos and don'ts. But rather believe in God that what He says is for you happiness and joy for your life. What you obey God, He promises to manifest himself to you. Now he isn't going to manifest Himself by some sign in the heave, but by working through you life as you obey Him. You will see you situation change, you will see results of God's love. You will experience His forgiveness. You will find yourself with the ability to forgive others. Because your obedience to his Word will activate his Spirit in your life.

This may not seem very concrete way of finding God to you, but it has worked for me.

All I'm saying is that you take Him on His Word. Try Him on this. Try for one week to seek God for changes in your life. Trust Him that He will do something amazing and unexpected. See what happens. Please.

 

[MedicMan]

I wonder if anyone here is familiar with the idea of 'irreducible complexity'. Both my philosophy lecturer and my biology lecturer have explained it to me, and personally it really drives home the proof that God, and God alone, created the world and everything in it.

As an example, I'll use the eye. Of the older members of this forum, I wonder who remembers high school / GCSE biology learning about the structure of the eye - the retina, the lens, the iris, and so forth. Atheistic evolutionists tell us that this organ and all its constituent parts evolved purely by chance, from simpler life forms. They explain that first we had single-celled life forms, then there was a mutation that caused some to have more than one cell, and these survived better so they multiplied, yadda yadda yadda. No problem. But, however, if we look at the various parts of the eye, we see that they cannot have evolved on their own. The retina would be absolutely useless with out the lens to focus light on it; vice versa there would be no point in having a lens unless there was something for it to focus light on. In essence, there is no point in possessing the individual parts of the eye unless we possess all of them. How, then, could a creature have randomly evolved to be like this? This is what we mean when we say something is irreducibly complex - we cannot reduce the eye to a simpler level of complexity, because to make the eye any less complex is to remove its function.
A similar argument is to look at the flagellum (the whip-like tails found on bacteria). The method by which they rotate is astoundingly complex - the cell possesses a form of 'biological motor' which can rotate the flagellum by use of certain proteins and so on. If we remove the flagellum, we are just left with this 'motor' which, on its own, has no function at all for the cell, beneficial or otherwise. How could this have evolved without the simultaneous evolution of the flagellum?

I hope that helped

Ian

 

[starelda]

There are arguments against irreducible complexity. Taking the example of the eye, that could have started out as an area of photosensitive cells which just distinguish light from dark. Even today there are creatures which have very basic eyesight...such as the nautilus whose eye basically works like a pinhole camera...it's an eye without a lens. It's poor sight but it's still better than no sight.

 

[*Rob*]

well i am one of them people who believes a day to God could be a million years. but don't forget there was no humans or animals on the first couple of days, therefore God didn't create time till day 3, so i belive the first few days were a long time

 

[MedicMan]

There are arguments against irreducible complexity. Taking the example of the eye, that could have started out as an area of photosensitive cells which just distinguish light from dark. Even today there are creatures which have very basic eyesight...such as the nautilus whose eye basically works like a pinhole camera...it's an eye without a lens. It's poor sight but it's still better than no sight.

Granted, but how then would the lens have evolved, along with the iris, ciliary ligaments, etc? A lens on its own would not function at all without the iris to change its shape, and the ciliary ligaments to do that. I just can't understand how it all could have evolved purely by chance.
And what about the bacterial flagellum, then? I am not familiar with any cells that have a simpler method of transport than that, and I'm sure you'll agree that the flagellum and related structure are irreducibly complex.

Lol I don't mean to get really worked up, and I'm sorry if I come across as such, but I remember the joy I felt (and still do feel) when I first discovered God and it makes me feel bad to think that some people haven't experienced this in full. What was it that made you a Christian in the first place?

Ian

 

[starelda]

Lol I don't mean to get really worked up, and I'm sorry if I come across as such, but I remember the joy I felt (and still do feel) when I first discovered God and it makes me feel bad to think that some people haven't experienced this in full. What was it that made you a Christian in the first place?

Ian

My upbringing...well school in particular. My parents are non-Christians but I was taught about God and Christianity at school...not just in RE lessons but the hymns, nativity plays, prayer before lunch, etc. Until last year I never questioned whether God was real or not, I'd just accepted it. I had that joy too. In fact, part of me misses that...as well as traditions in church, reading the bible, praying etc. I do miss those things...I'd love to find there was a loving God out there but right now I just can't believe that there is.