A question for reflection, not so much for debate.

[Xeno.of.athens]

I am 68 years old and I presume you are much younger, yet you seem to long for the mass as it was in my early childhood. Why is that? Do you yearn for stability, believing it resides in the past rather than the present?

[NOTE: I understand that some younger individuals have been raised with the Latin Mass, and I do not presume that everyone who appreciates it, longs for it, or desires its continuity is driven solely by a longing for stability.]

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

I am 69. I think it ought to be available like other rites. But I do not attend. I do like to read the Psalms in Latin.

 

[AlexB23]

I am 68 years old and I presume you are much younger, yet you seem to long for the mass as it was in my early childhood. Why is that? Do you yearn for stability, believing it resides in the past rather than the present?

[NOTE: I understand that some younger individuals have been raised with the Latin Mass, and I do not presume that everyone who appreciates it, longs for it, or desires its continuity is driven solely by a longing for stability.]

I am 24, so I have never been to a Latin mass in the US, though sometimes I do long for more organ and choral stuff. Piano is good though. Some Italian dude named Bartolomeo invented the piano during the early 1700s.

But yes, a Latin Mass would be cool to go to, even though I may not understand it. A church should hold at least one Latin Mass per month in my opinion, with the regular English masses scheduled as normal.

Piano Inventor:

The origins of the Piano:The Story of the Piano's Invention - Musical Instrument Guide - Yamaha Corporation

This is the Yamaha Corporation [Musical Instrument Guide] website. This article contains information about the Piano [The origins of the Piano:The Story of the Piano's Invention]

www.yamaha.com

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

,Latin Mass would be cool to go to

As a novelty? The problem is that some view it as holier. And then , of course they feel holier that the rest of us. If not holier, certainly more ritually correct. I guess then the fear is that it can become kind of cultish.

But OP is asking about stability. For young forks it is actually an innovation. For old guys like me it it a touch with the past, not just my childhood when it was all in Latin but with the centuries of monks and religious praying Divine Office.

 

[AlexB23]

As a novelty? The problem is that some view it as holier. And then , of course they feel holier that the rest of us. If not holier, certainly more ritually correct. I guess then the fear is that it can become kind of cultish.

But OP is asking about stability. For young forks it is actually an innovation. For old guys like me it it a touch with the past, not just my childhood when it was all in Latin but with the centuries of monks and religious praying Divine Office.

Yeah, as a novelty, as that was how masses were done before the 1960s. Both masses are equally correct, so I see no reason why folks debate about which mass version is better. Both English and Latin masses have their own place. So, if we want to prevent Latin Mass from dying out, churches should hold a Latin mass at least once a month, preferably once per week, maybe after two English masses.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Yeah, as a novelty, as that was how masses were done before the 1960s. Both masses are equally correct, so I see no reason why folks debate about which mass version is better. Both English and Latin masses have their own place. So, if we want to prevent Latin Mass from dying out, churches should hold a Latin mass at least once a month, preferably once per week, maybe after two English masses.

Maybe even a renaissance of Latin language study.

 

[AlexB23]

Maybe even a renaissance of Latin language study.

That would be a good idea. I was home schooled from 2006-2009, and learned a bit of Latin in home school as a second and third grader. Not enough to get through a church service though.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

As a novelty? The problem is that some view it as holier. And then , of course they feel holier that the rest of us. If not holier, certainly more ritually correct. I guess then the fear is that it can become kind of cultish.

But OP is asking about stability. For young forks it is actually an innovation. For old guys like me it it a touch with the past, not just my childhood when it was all in Latin but with the centuries of monks and religious praying Divine Office.

Truly, for the young, it is an innovation unlike anything they've experienced before, while for us, it is merely a memory. It cannot provide the longed-for stability.

 

[jas3]

I am 68 years old and I presume you are much younger, yet you seem to long for the mass as it was in my early childhood. Why is that? Do you yearn for stability, believing it resides in the past rather than the present?

I'm in my late 20's. How I came to prefer the TLM is a long story, but to make it short, I was raised going to a relatively traditional Methodist church. Subjectively, the Latin mass feels more familiar than the Novus Ordo, which to me feels more like a Methodist "contemporary service," which I have always disliked since it desacralizes the act of worship in the pursuit of making people more materially comfortable. I do think that there is also a good argument for the TLM being objectively more reverent and serious than the NO, especially in that it doesn't allow for extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion.

As for stability, yes, I think most of the liturgical changes that have happened in the last century, both in Protestantism and in Catholicism, have been horribly misguided attempts to make worship more "participatory" and "approachable" and "relevant." I've seen some of these as they affected Methodism in my lifetime, in the introduction of projectors and screens into the sanctuary, the use of guitars and drums instead of the organ for music in the traditional service, the explicit encouragement from the pastor of more casual dress during the summer, and even the substitution of the whole worship service with a choir recital on several occasions. Clearly the result has been a loss of reverence in worship and a corresponding loss of faith.

 

[All4Christ]

I’m not Catholic, but since this is Traditional Theology, I’ll chime in. We have a Western Rite in the Orthodox Church, which frequently uses an ancient liturgy (the Liturgy of St. Gregory) that is based on the Tridentine Mass with some corrections. That form of liturgy definitely resonates more with me over the Novus Ordo. Usage of the Gregorian chant probably has something to do with that as well, since we heavily rely on Byzantine chant (or Kieven, Obhikod, etc.) in the Eastern Orthodox Church. We also have a tendency to avoid change (why fix something if it isn’t broken?) , and the Pre-Tridentine Mass (pre-Trent) is an ancient venerable liturgy that is absolutely beautiful.

**Edited to be more accurate.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I’m not Catholic, but since this is Traditional Theology, I’ll chime in. We have a Western Rite in the Orthodox Church, which frequently uses the Tridentine Mass, like the TLM with English (or whatever language people speak in the area). That form of liturgy definitely resonates more with me over the Novus Ordo. Usage of the Gregorian chant probably has something to do with that as well, since we heavily rely on Byzantine chant (or Kieven, Obhikod, etc.) in the Eastern Orthodox Church. We also have a tendency to avoid change (why fix something if it isn’t broken?) , and the Tridentine Mass is an ancient venerable liturgy that is absolutely beautiful.

I understand that the Mass of Trent is not ancient but incorporates elements from ancient liturgical texts. Similarly, the Ordinary Form of the Mass today, often referred to as Novus Ordo, is not ancient either and also draws from ancient liturgical texts, which may be older than those used for the Mass of Trent.

 

[All4Christ]

I understand that the Mass of Trent is not ancient but incorporates elements from ancient liturgical texts. Similarly, the Ordinary Form of the Mass today, often referred to as Novus Ordo, is not ancient either and also draws from ancient liturgical texts, which may be older than those used for the Mass of Trent.

Ah - great point. The Western Orthodox Rite uses either the Liturgy of St Gregory (a modification of the Tridentine Mass) or The Liturgy of St. Tikhon (heavy modification of an Anglican mass). *** Corrected in light of later posts *** Admittedly, I am much more well-versed in the Eastern development of liturgical services over development in the West. I need to brush up on that. @The Liturgist probably know more history about the Western Rite in Orthodoxy.

Edit: I also read that the Tridentine Mass was heavily based on that ancient pre-Tridentine mass that was pre-schism, and that it wasn’t a completely new rite - rather a codification of existing rites with some changes. It was an organic development of liturgy. I also read that the older parts of Novus Ordo were pulled from Eastern Liturgies and inserted into the streamlined form of liturgy. Again, I am not an expert - but I look forward to pulling out my Development of Liturgy books.

 

[The Liturgist]

They use the Liturgy of St Gregory - which from what I understand, is based on the Pre-Tridentine mass.

Actually, not really. ROCOR uses more ancient Western Rite liturgies, but with the AWRV, the Divine Liturgy of St. Gregory is basically the Tridentine Mass with some modifications and corrections and the Divine Liturgy of St. Tikhon is the Anglican mass (or Holy Communion service) with many modifications, as outlined by a committee organized by St. Tikhon when he was Metropolitan of North America.

To see the exact Antiochian Western Rite Vicarate text, you’ll want to find a copy of St. Andrew’s Service Book.

 

[All4Christ]

Actually, not really. ROCOR uses more ancient Western Rite liturgies, but with the AWRV, the Divine Liturgy of St. Gregory is basically the Tridentine Mass with some modifications and corrections and the Divine Liturgy of St. Tikhon is the Anglican mass (or Holy Communion service) with many modifications, as outlined by a committee organized by St. Tikhon when he was Metropolitan of North America.

To see the exact Antiochian Western Rite Vicarate text, you’ll want to find a copy of St. Andrew’s Service Book.

Then my original post prior to edits was more accurate (saying that it was based on the Tridentine mass vs Pre-Tridentine). Thanks.

 

[Bob Crowley]

I am 68 years old and I presume you are much younger, yet you seem to long for the mass as it was in my early childhood. Why is that? Do you yearn for stability, believing it resides in the past rather than the present?

[NOTE: I understand that some younger individuals have been raised with the Latin Mass, and I do not presume that everyone who appreciates it, longs for it, or desires its continuity is driven solely by a longing for stability.]

I'm 70 but I didn't become Catholic till I was in my early to mid 40's. That was after about 14 or 15 years as a practising Protestant, and a mixture of atheism and cultural Sunday School Christianity in my early years.

So I'm way past the Vatican I years, and I don't have any particular interest in the Latin mass. I was eight years old when Vatican II started and 11 when it finished. As far as I was concerned it was a news item in the local newspaper from time to time and that was about it.

I don't care what music instruments are played during the mass (I play the guitar myself - er, sort of) provided a reasonable standard is kept. Since there is a learning curve for all musicians, if the church wants to have any hope of encouraging learner musicians to participate, then it will need to be a bit forgiving, which I believe is a Christian tradition?? I only picked up a guitar due to the encouragement I received back when I was a Presbyterian. Had the same circumstances applied in the Catholic Church, I don't think I would have bothered. There wouldn't have been the same encouragement or forbearance.

Mind you I am doing a U3A course in Latin. U3A is an educational outfit for older people - "University of the Third Age" - but it's nowhere near actual university standard. The amount of conjugation and declension in Latin took me by unpleasant surprise, so if someone is really thinking about learning Latin then rest assured it's a steep uphill climb.

My reason was, supposedly, so I could read some Latin Church documents and maybe the Latin Vulgate but I haven't made a start yet.

I'm not in the least bit impressed by the desire for Latin masses as though that is somehow going to rejuvenate the church. The church is growing most strongly in Africa and Asia, and they have no Latin background to their languages other than those where variations of the Latin alphabet are used due to European colonisation eg. Indonesia (Dutch), Malay (English), Tagalog (Spanish & American), Vietnamese (French) and across the western, southern and central parts of Africa.

I'm quite happy to continue with masses in the local vernacular.