A question for Old Earth Creationists

Oncedeceived · Jun 19, 2014

The Bible was written in stages and the OT is thousands of years old and has been translated from its original language which is difficult to begin with, and then we in turn use our own language to interpret these writings from long ago. There is no doubt that it can be interpreted differently and we being human tend to have our own subjective opinions imprinting upon them.

It is no different than any area of historic relics. The same holds true with fossils which is fossilized history and isn't in words at all. The difference of what one scientist think about a fossil has many different conclusions and those conclusions change if something else is found to prove the previous conclusion wrong.

I don't see having different interpretations of a language written thousands of years ago a problem with the truth value of the Bible.

whitebeaches · Jun 25, 2014

Mod Hat On

This thread has undergone a clean up due to the violation of the flame rule. It is quite possible another cleaning may take place. If you noticed a post of yours missing it was removed in the clean up. It has also been noted there are several off topic posts. Please stick with the original topic of the original post. Remember not to flame and to address the context of the post only and not the poster. Thank you and may you have a wonderful day.

Mod Hat Off

RickG · Jun 25, 2014

whitebeaches said:
Please stick with the original topic of the original post. Remember not to flame and to address the context of the post only and not the poster. Thank you and may you have a wonderful day.

Excellent idea. Here's the "Original topic" stated again.

Explain the fossil record without evolution?

And this time let's stick to the science.

EternalDragon · Jun 25, 2014

RickG said:
Excellent idea. Here's the "Original topic" stated again.

Explain the fossil record without evolution?

And this time let's stick to the science.

Gen. 7:20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

lasthero · Jun 25, 2014

EternalDragon said:
Gen. 7:20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

That's a Bible verse, and the situation it describes isn't what we find in the fossil record.

Sorry. Try again. Just saying the Flood explains the fossil record doesn't actually mean the Flood explains the fossil record. Because it doesn't.

Dizredux · Jun 25, 2014

EternalDragon said:
Gen. 7:20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

But that does not explain the pattern of fossils we see in the earth while evolution does it quite nicely.

Dizredux

Delphiki · Jun 25, 2014

Where's the part in the bible that explains how the fossil record and geological column read like a vertical timeline as it does?

Delphiki · Jun 25, 2014

EternalDragon said:
God, as a human, died on the cross. The Holy Spirit can't die.

So, once again you show that the distinctions between the aspects of trinity are conditional according to whatever argument you're trying to make at a given moment.

God, as a human, died* on the cross because God, as a human, is Jesus. God, as a human, did not create the universe. Jesus did not create the universe. According to the story, God, in his entirety (i.e. not as a human), created the universe.

This isn't rocket science.

*was temporarily inconvenienced for our sins

AV1611VET · Jun 25, 2014

Delphiki said:
Where's the part in the bible that explains how the fossil record and geological column read like a vertical timeline as it does?

Next to the part where the Big Bang singularity and the cosmological spread read like like a horizontal timeline as it does?

RickG · Jun 25, 2014

EternalDragon said:
Gen. 7:20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

Bible verses are not science. Do you have anything to contribute from a scientific point of view that can explain the fossil record without using evolution?

Delphiki · Jun 25, 2014

AV1611VET said:
Next to the part where the Big Bang singularity and the cosmological spread read like like a horizontal timeline as it does?

It doesn't read that way, but I'll reply anyway so you can get your little narcissism fix.

When I say the fossil record and geological column read like a vertical timeline, I am talking about how the deeper you look, the further back in earth's time we see. Down is back in time, up is forward in time.

The Big Bang is the universe as it is expanding in all directions. So the farther we look in space in any direction, the further back in universe's time we see.

Neither of these are explain in the bible, but rather ignorantly contradicted by it.

RickG · Jun 25, 2014

AV1611VET said:
Next to the part where the Big Bang singularity and the cosmological spread read like like a horizontal timeline as it does?

Did whitebeaches not ask that we stay on topic?

RickG · Jun 26, 2014

Isn't it amazing that when people are asked to stay on topic and actually discuss science, that many suddenly fall silent.

All I am asking for is for someone to explain the fossil record throughout geologic time with respect to how it got there from a scientific point of view. If not by evolution over time, then how?

AV1611VET · Jun 26, 2014

RickG said:
All I am asking for is for someone to explain the fossil record throughout geologic time with respect to how it got there from a scientific point of view.

And how long does it take someone to learn all this, Rick?

2 years of college? 4?

A year of high school?

How much money did it take for you to learn all this?

And you want it explained in one sentence?

How many classes did it take you, to learn the fossil record throughout geologic time with respect to how it got there?

It would probably take a post a mile and a half long to explain all this, eh?

And to get it explained to your satisfaction, I assume the explainer would have had to have taken the same classes as you did?

DerelictJunction · Jun 26, 2014

AV1611VET said:
And how long does it take someone to learn all this, Rick?

2 years of college? 4?

A year of high school?

How much money did it take for you to learn all this?

And you want it explained in one sentence?

How many classes did it take you, to learn the fossil record throughout geologic time with respect to how it got there?

It would probably take a post a mile and a half long to explain all this, eh?

And to get it explained to your satisfaction, I assume the explainer would have had to have taken the same classes as you did?

As usual, I don't understand your reply. At first glance, it looks like a long self-indulgent excuse to not answer the question.
However, in the past, you have stated that God cleaned up all the mess from the Flood so no evidence of it was left behind.
Why didn't you just say that God put all the fossils in sediments in the order they are found?
If He purposely removed evidence for the Flood, He can put in fossils to look like evolution occurred. In fact, those fossils are not required to have ever been living creatures. The radioactive elements and their decay products could have been put there in the right ratios also.

RickG · Jun 26, 2014

AV1611VET said:
And how long does it take someone to learn all this, Rick?

Learning never stops, but most any middle school child has a pretty good grasp of it.

2 years of college? 4?

A year of high school?

How much money did it take for you to learn all this?

More than likely the total of all three of my degrees cost less than a single year of college today. Ah, the 60's & 70's, those were the days. Well actually, the last two didn't cost me a cent as they were paid for via the G.I. Bill. Your tax dollars. Thank you for funding my education.

And you want it explained in one sentence?

The only thing I asked was that it be explained with science. I didn't restrict the explanation length.

How many classes did it take you, to learn the fossil record throughout geologic time with respect to how it got there?

I'm still learning.

It would probably take a post a mile and a half long to explain all this, eh?

Actually I just want a simple explanation. How did they get there if not by evolution.

And to get it explained to your satisfaction, I assume the explainer would have had to have taken the same classes as you did?

Calm down AV, If you have any meds you need to take you might want to go and do that now. In fact, that reminds me that I need to take mine.

AV1611VET · Jun 26, 2014

DerelictJunction said:
However, in the past, you have stated that God cleaned up all the mess from the Flood so no evidence of it was left behind.

Yes ... with a very few exceptions.

First of all, I'm not convinced that all these fossils that are in the ground today are from animals that lived before the Flood.

Maybe a few are ... but for the most part, the remains of the animals that died during the Flood -- including layers of earth -- were taken elsewhere in the solar system to be placed on display as a warning sign to other angels.

I do think God left these coccoliths or coccospores or whatever they're called here on earth for cross-reference purposes.

God swept them up before Noah disembarked, and stockpiled them in what is now called "white cliffs," such as in Dover, England.

A corresponding set of "white cliffs" then would be taken elsewhere in the solar system for ... as I said ... cross reference.

Suppose you're a fallen angel, approaching the earth.

The first thing you see as you enter our solar system -- (or are aware of) -- is a planet ... Neptune, to be exact ... that contains fossils or skeletons of 30' beings (or however tall they were), dinosaurs, trees, men, women, children, and various plants and animals.

This is a "warning" ... or a "reminder" ... of what God can, and has, done, and should get you to thinking about your contemporaries who are currently locked up in chains of darkness forever.

Should you ignore this "warning buoy" (Neptune), then when you arrive at earth, you will see basically some of the same things you saw on Neptune: white cliffs, dinosaurs, humans, plants and animals.

This should then serve as a powerful deterrent for a repeat of the activities of Genesis 6.

This is, of course, speculation on my part; but if you have a better explanation, then more power to you.

Oncedeceived · Jun 26, 2014

Delphiki said:
It doesn't read that way, but I'll reply anyway so you can get your little narcissism fix.

When I say the fossil record and geological column read like a vertical timeline, I am talking about how the deeper you look, the further back in earth's time we see. Down is back in time, up is forward in time.

The Big Bang is the universe as it is expanding in all directions. So the farther we look in space in any direction, the further back in universe's time we see.

Neither of these are explain in the bible, but rather ignorantly contradicted by it.

This is blatantly false.

The Bible claims the universe is expanding.

I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, [even] my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
Isaiah 45:12

And forgettest the LORD thy maker, that hath stretched forth the heavens, and laid the foundations of the earth; and hast feared continually every day because of the fury of the oppressor, as if he were ready to destroy? and where [is] the fury of the oppressor?
Isaiah 51:13

He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heaven by his understanding.
Jeremiah 51:15

The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
Zechariah 12:

DerelictJunction · Jun 26, 2014

Oncedeceived said:
This is blatantly false.

The Bible claims the universe is expanding.

I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, [even] my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
Isaiah 45:12

And forgettest the LORD thy maker, that hath stretched forth the heavens, and laid the foundations of the earth; and hast feared continually every day because of the fury of the oppressor, as if he were ready to destroy? and where [is] the fury of the oppressor?
Isaiah 51:13

He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heaven by his understanding.
Jeremiah 51:15

The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
Zechariah 12:

But all of those are past tense. So, the expansion has stopped according to the Bible.

RickG · Jun 26, 2014

AV1611VET said:
Yes ... with a very few exceptions.

First of all, I'm not convinced that all these fossils that are in the ground today are from animals that lived before the Flood.

Maybe a few are ... but for the most part, the remains of the animals that died during the Flood -- including layers of earth -- were taken elsewhere in the solar system to be placed on display as a warning sign to other angels.

I do think God left these coccoliths or coccospores or whatever they're called here on earth for cross-reference purposes.

God swept them up before Noah disembarked, and stockpiled them in what is now called "white cliffs," such as in Dover, England.

A corresponding set of "white cliffs" then would be taken elsewhere in the solar system for ... as I said ... cross reference.

Suppose you're a fallen angel, approaching the earth.

The first thing you see as you enter our solar system -- (or are aware of) -- is a planet ... Neptune, to be exact ... that contains fossils or skeletons of 30' beings (or however tall they were), dinosaurs, trees, men, women, children, and various plants and animals.

This is a "warning" ... or a "reminder" ... of what God can, and has, done, and should get you to thinking about your contemporaries who are currently locked up in chains of darkness forever.

Should you ignore this "warning buoy" (Neptune), then when you arrive at earth, you will see basically some of the same things you saw on Neptune: white cliffs, dinosaurs, humans, plants and animals.

This should then serve as a powerful deterrent for a repeat of the activities of Genesis 6.

This is, of course, speculation on my part; but if you have a better explanation, then more power to you.

That's making stuff up and you know it. More non literal made up stuff to justify the literal. Remember the 9th commandment.

A question for Old Earth Creationists

Senior Veteran

Legend

Senior Veteran

Counselor

Newbie

Newbie

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE

Senior Veteran

Well-Known Member

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE

DerelictJunction

Guest

Senior Veteran

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE

Senior Veteran

DerelictJunction

Guest

Senior Veteran

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency