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What is my current attitude towards them, and in which way/direction do you feel it could/might change if I were convinced a god existed?If you were convinced that God exists, how would your attitude towards miracles (be it the Resurrection of Christ, or other miracles, like Marian apparitions, charismatic gifts, etc) change?
Many things:
- I'd say that the laws of nature are laws about what will happen given that there is no intervention, so a miracle wouldn't really violate them.
- Your naturalistic/empiricist presuppositions are pretty plain here. You blatantly assume theoughout this entire post that only natural/material things can exist, and your only justification of said assumption is that they cannot be empirically demonstrated, ergo empiricism.
- What you said about how if supernatural entities have effects on the natural world, that makes them natural is invalid. When you play a video game, you can effect the video game, but that doesn't make you yourself part of the video game.
- Your statement that calling something a miracle is an argument from ignorance is simply false. Calling something a miracle is often an inference from the context of the event, along with the impossibility of it happening naturally
Take the Resurrection of Jesus for instance. Now, there are those that say that Jesus rose miraculously from the dead, and there are those that say He didn't rise from the dead, but no sane person says that He rse from the dead, but that maybe someday we will habe an explanation of it.
Not only are spontaneous resurrections after a night, a day and a night dead completely biologically impossible by natural means
If you were convinced that God exists, how would your attitude towards miracles (be it the Resurrection of Christ, or other miracles, like Marian apparitions, charismatic gifts, etc) change?
- Your naturalistic/empiricist presuppositions are pretty plain here. You blatantly assume theoughout this entire post that only natural/material things can exist, and your only justification of said assumption is that they cannot be empirically demonstrated, ergo empiricism.
I'm going to respond to many of your major points. I'm not gong to respond to everything, because a lot of your post is just stating your opinion, and quite frankly I don't have the time.And I say, as you can read in my post, that a distinction needs to be made between the subjective laws of nature (= our tentative models obtained through the scientific method) and the objective laws of nature (= the actual rules that we are trying to zero-in on through the scientific method)
The objective laws of nature are a set of rules that govern all of existence. ALL of existence. That means, if something exists BEYOND our observable universe (a multi verse, extra dimensions, parallell universes, gods, whatever), then that something is PART of ALL of existence. And these things are bound by the objective laws of nature (=existence) just like everything else.
Don't strawman me. Instead, try to understand what I am REALLY saying.
I'll assume that the video game is an analogy for our space-time continuum. And you call just this universe "nature". I completely disagree with that. When I talk about "nature", I'm talking about ALL THAT EXISTS. If things exist beyond our universe, then those things are included in ALL THAT EXISTS.
I, as a game hacker, programmer, player or cheater of the game am bound by the rules of the plain of existence I EXIST ON. In the very nature of the video game itself are also rules that allow ME to interfere with that internal world.
Again, if a multi-verse exists, then there are laws that govern how that multi-verse works. The universes that come from it can come with their own set of laws. But they don't make the laws of multi-verse dissappear.
In fact, the laws of the multi-verse will pretty much determine the set of possible universes (each with potentially it's own set of laws) that can come from it.
The same goes for gods or any other thing of which the existence is proposed. If gods exist, then they exist in some way on some plain of existence.
There's a misconception hidden in this statement. First, how do you know what is "impossible" if you are not all-knowing?
Secondly, "happening naturally" is an invalid statement.
For example, computers don't happen "naturally". In fact, much of the materials used for its components don't even occur "naturally". Humans create those machines. So there is an intervention to produce an object that does not occur naturally. I guess you will disagree that compuers are "miracles".
Third, I have issues with the word "impossible". If something is impossible, then it is impossible. If a certain thing can happen (like a miracle - however you define it), then that certain thing is BY DEFINITION not impossible. Things that are possible are not impossible.
If Jesus got resurected, then he got resurected in some way.
If this was the result of an all-knowing, all-powerfull being, then there are rules that allow for such thing to take place. Then such a thing is not impossible, since it happened - making it possible.
I have no issues with the idea that perhaps we are not able to comprehend HOW it happened. Our brains might physiologically simply not be fit to understand such things. Just like the brain of a chimp is physiologically not fit to comprehend quantum mechanics or newtonian physics. But nevertheless, if it happened then it happened in some way.
If a chimp would have the knowledge we have concerning science, the chimp too could build and deploy a GPS system.
Likewise, if we would have the knowledge that such a deity has, then we too could resurect people.
It happened in some way. The laws of nature / existence ALLOW for it to happen in some way. Just like they ALLOW humans to build non-naturally occuring cars, computers and space shuttles.
But it didn't happen by natural means. The claim of christianity is not that he spontanously came back to life without intervention.
Just like nobody claims that GPS satellites naturally assemble and get deployed. Somebody is intervening to build these things. Just like in christianity, some deity intervened to resurect a dead human.
Clearly, the laws and rules of nature / existence did not make it impossible for this being to do so. Just like the laws and rules of nature / existence did not make it impossible for us to build computers.
Again: if a thing exists, then that thing exists in some way, in some place, in some form. If this thing can then do certain things (like reaching into a space-time continuum or even creating it), then it can do these things in some way. And those actions are then possible by definition.
Huh? I'm not a presuppositionalist, in fact the reason why I am critiquing his blatant circular reasoning is the same reason I critique presups' blatant circular reasoning.A Catholic van Tillian. Now I've seen everything.
'Supernatural' does not even have a positive, coherent definition, let alone a workable method by which the glean information about it. It is an ontologically and epistemologically vacuous non-concept with zero explanatory power. As such, there is no reason to even consider it as a plausible explanation for anything.
That is why it is discarded out of hand. Not because I 'presuppose' naturalism.
Huh? I'm not a presuppositionalist, in fact the reason why I am critiquing his blatant circular reasoning is the same reason I critique presups' blatant circular reasoning.
And defining the supernatural is pretty darn easy. That which is outside of the natural.
Huh? I'm not a presuppositionalist,
defining the supernatural is pretty darn easy. That which is outside of the natural.
- Who cares if it's not a positive definition? Extra-terrestrial means outside of planet Earth, and that's not a positive definition, but it's still a definition.You sure sound like one.
Firstly, that's not a positive definition.
Secondly, it answers absolutely nothing.
What exactly does it mean to be 'outside nature'?
By what method is information about things 'outside nature' reliably gleaned?
How are things 'outside nature' reliably differentiated from imaginary things?
How are things 'outside nature' reliably differentiated from unknown natural phenomena?
By what mechanism does something 'outside nature' causally integrate with nature?
If things 'outside nature' can causally integrate with nature, why not just expand your definition of 'nature' to include those things?
That will do for a start.
- Who cares if it's not a positive definition? Extra-terrestrial means outside of planet Earth, and that's not a positive definition, but it's still a definition.
- The fact that you can't empirically obtain knowledge about supernatural agents (which is what I think a lot of these questions are meant to demonstrate), is only a problem if you 're an empiricist.
- I am what you would call an idealist, so the interaction problem isn't a problem with my view, because both the natural and supernatural would be the same fundamental substance, so it is possible for them to interact, even though you might not be able to empirically show how.
- Who cares if it's not a positive definition? Extra-terrestrial means outside of planet Earth, and that's not a positive definition, but it's still a definition.
- The fact that you can't empirically obtain knowledge about supernatural agents (which is what I think a lot of these questions are meant to demonstrate), is only a problem if you 're an empiricist.
- I am what you would call an idealist, so the interaction problem isn't a problem with my view, because both the natural and supernatural would be the same fundamental substance, so it is possible for them to interact, even though you might not be able to empirically show how.
Empiricism.If you can't show things to interact, there is no basis to think they do. Especially if you have working models which don't require the interaction.
- "Naturally impossible" is not "impossible." Learn the difference.
- Your analogy of GPSs actually supports my case. Laws of nature talk about what will happen under certain conditions, which include that no intervention happens.
- I can know that something is impossible by natural means by comparing it to what is possible by natural means. Now, you could say that I can't know it's naturally impossible, because I can't say I'm 100% sure it's naturally impossible, but by that standard of knowledge, there isn't that much we do know.
- Who cares if it's not a positive definition?
Extra-terrestrial means outside of planet Earth, and that's not a positive definition, but it's still a definition.
- The fact that you can't empirically obtain knowledge about supernatural agents (which is what I think a lot of these questions are meant to demonstrate), is only a problem if you 're an empiricist.
- I am what you would call an idealist, so the interaction problem isn't a problem with my view, because both the natural and supernatural would be the same fundamental substance, so it is possible for them to interact, even though you might not be able to empirically show how.
Don´t even get me started on the hyper-supernatural.
Well, computers/GPSs would be naturally impossible in the sense that the laws of nature alone could not make them. So to use the video game analogy, our minds would be like somebody playing with an avatar loaded up in the video game doing things in it, and God would be like the ultimate remote controller.Then explain the difference.
Are computers "naturally impossible"? If not, why not?
Really? So GPS systems are supernatural?
So, are computers "naturally impossible"?
More question-begging, I see?People who value substance over useless nonsense.
Actually, extra-terrestrial means from places in the universe other then planet earth. Like Mars, Venus or even other solar systems.
Can you give examples of places "outside of existence"?
This is why your defintion is useless. Because it doesn't mean anything.
...And when you're also an empiricistNo. It is a problem when you value being justified in your beliefs.
More question-begging, I see?The word "supernatural" is a meaningless word.
When we talk about the laws of nature, we mean the laws/rules that govern everything that exists. If gods exist, then they exist in some way on some plain of existence. And they couldn't have created "existence", since that would have existence existing before existence existing. It makes no sense.
Gods, if they exist, are bound by the laws of existence just like any other thing that exists.
You mean empirically? If not, there are plenty of arguments whose conclusion is that something which would be supernatural exists (but I won't make the mistake of following the red herrings of talking abojt the specific ones again.) If so, then... more question-begging, I see?But until you can actually demonstrate such existence, the whole discussion is an exercise in futility and wasting of energy.
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