A question about the episcopacy.

Colabomb · Oct 17, 2004

Hey guys, I have a question if you don't mind.

How Biblical is the Trifold ministry.

I have seen claims that there is no difference between Episcopos and Presbyter.

Is this right, wrong?

God Bless you Brothers.

benedictine · Oct 17, 2004

Working on it.

benedictine · Oct 17, 2004

Begining with the establishment of the episcopal office:

Matthew 10:1-15 said:
1 Then he summoned his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits to drive them out and to cure every disease and every illness. 2 The names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon called Peter, and his brother Andrew; James, the son of Zebedee, and his brother John; 3 Philip and Bartholomew, Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James, the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddeus; 4 Simon the Cananean, and Judas Iscariot who betrayed him. 5 Jesus sent out these twelve after instructing them thus, "Do not go into pagan territory or enter a Samaritan town. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 As you go, make this proclamation: 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.' 8 Cure the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, drive out demons. Without cost you have received; without cost you are to give. 9 Do not take gold or silver or copper for your belts; 10 no sack for the journey, or a second tunic, or sandals, or walking stick. The laborer deserves his keep. 11 Whatever town or village you enter, look for a worthy person in it, and stay there until you leave. 12 As you enter a house, wish it peace. 13 If the house is worthy, let your peace come upon it; if not, let your peace return to you. 14 Whoever will not receive you or listen to your words--go outside that house or town and shake the dust from your feet. 15 Amen, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.

The Priestly office:

Acts 15:6 said:
The apostles and the elders met together toconsider this matter

And, finally, the Diaconate:

Acts6:1-7 said:
1 Now in these days when the disciples were increasing in number, the Hellenists murmured against the Hebrews because their widows were neglected in the daily distribution. 2 And the twelve summoned the body of the disciples and said, "It is not right that we should give up preaching the word of God to serve tables. 3 Therefore, brethren, pick out from among you seven men of good repute, full of the Spirit and of wisdom, whom we may appoint to this duty. 4 But we will devote ourselves to prayer and to the ministry of the word." 5 And what they said pleased the whole multitude, and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit, and Philip, and Proch'orus, and Nica'nor, and Ti'mon, and Par'menas, and Nicola'us, a proselyte of Antioch. 6 These they set before the apostles, and they prayed and laid their hands upon them. 7 And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were obedient to the faith.

J-Tron · Oct 17, 2004

hmm... the priestly office verse seems a little thin on details.

Polycarp1 · Oct 17, 2004

Each metropolitan church had one episkopos (and occasionally more) whose job it was to give oversight to the activities of that local church and to the outlying churches that were founded from it, as Christianity spread. There was also a body of presbuterioi who assisted and advised him, and exercised his ministry collegially with him. Both Paul and Luke occasionally refer to the same men with both terms, probably relating to the work being done rather than to the offices held.
The result was in a bishop seated in a cathedral church in each metropolitan city, with presbyters serving that church and the smaller churches that were offshoots from it.

Only small elements relating to this are described in Scripture, since the principal intent of those passages was relative to other matters. One of the letters to Timothy does the most thorough job of addressing this, since it was Timothy's duty, for which Paul's letter was a guideline, to evangelize an area and name bishops, priests, and deacons for the churches he founded.

Colabomb · Oct 18, 2004

benedictine said:
Begining with the establishment of the episcopal office:

The Priestly office:

And, finally, the Diaconate:

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I know that the deaconate is a separate office, but I don't see any difference in the Scriptures shown between a priest and a Bishop. Is there a difference in Scripture?

I am not trying to arguementative, but I really would like to get this figured out.

God Bless you Brothers!

benedictine · Oct 18, 2004

The Bishops are the successors to the Apostles, Priests are elders. I think Elder translates into Presbyter, which is a long form of Priest. I think.

PaladinValer · Oct 18, 2004

Presbyter, when it reached Ango-Saxon lands, was Anglicized into the word "priest."

ahab · Oct 19, 2004

I have to agree with what Polycarp1 wrote.

However the episkopos, as overseers, were probably overseers of small groups of churches with the same 'status'/function as deacons and elders Phil 1:1-2, 1 Tim 3, 1. However, how do we feel about God appointing in the church first of all apostles, then prophets, teachers, workers of miracles, healers, helpers, administrators? 1 Cor 12, Eph 4.

Wigglesworth · Oct 19, 2004

ahab said:
However, how do we feel about God appointing in the church first of all apostles, then prophets, teachers, workers of miracles, healers, helpers, administrators? 1 Cor 12, Eph 4.

Bishops, priests, deacons, and laypersons can all exercise all of the above mentioned gifts, anointings, and offices. My pastor, the "senior pastor" of the church, is clearly an evangelist, but he has chosen another man to be the "executive pastor" of the church who is more suited to administration. Some priests are gifted teachers, and others are clearly better suited to exhortation or encouragement.

Polycarp1 · Oct 19, 2004

ahab said:
I have to agree with what Polycarp1 wrote.

However the episkopos, as overseers, were probably overseers of small groups of churches with the same 'status'/function as deacons and elders Phil 1:1-2, 1 Tim 3, 1 ***.
However, how do we feel about God appointing in the church first of all apostles, then prophets, teachers, workers of miracles, healers, helpers, administrators? 1 Cor 12, Eph 4.

Those are people who fulfill tasks in the Church -- "offices" in the sense of people named to do those jobs.

A bishop skilled at administration may become an executive officer of a given church commission. Or that commission may employ a layman skilled at administration. My bishop speaks with a prophetic voice, calling people to discipleship and ministry to their fellow man. I flatter myself that sometimes I rise to write with a prophetic voice, saying what I believe God wants people to hear through my words. A priest anoints the sick; a devout layman doctor treats through the practice of medicine.

It's important to note that the Episcopal Church recognizes that "the ministers of the church" are bishops, priests, deacons, and the laity -- we all function in roles of ministry to others. These may be any of the "task" ministries above.

ahab · Oct 19, 2004

Hi WigglesworthThank you for your reply , however I believe I am disrupting the thread with thead with that question if I continue with that.

Father Rick · Oct 21, 2004

ahab said:
I have to agree with what Polycarp1 wrote.

However the episkopos, as overseers, were probably overseers of small groups of churches with the same 'status'/function as deacons and elders Phil 1:1-2, 1 Tim 3, 1. However, how do we feel about God appointing in the church first of all apostles, then prophets, teachers, workers of miracles, healers, helpers, administrators? 1 Cor 12, Eph 4.

We have two different things here, which overlap...

First, there is heirarchical structure/authority... then there are charismata (spiritual giftings). Those called to sacramental ministry are called into roles of service within the structure/heirarchy of the church... those in these roles may function in a variety of different charismata. Some priests are teachers, some are pastors, some are evangelists, some prophets, some apostles. There are also laity who function in many of these giftings as well, such as teachers, evangelists, gifts of healing, etc.

One can also change/grow in their giftings and callings. In scripture we first see Stephen as a deacon, then we see him later as an evangelist. Paul started as a prophet and teacher who later became an apostle. Timothy, a pastor and bishop, was told to do the work of an evangelist.

Colabomb · Oct 24, 2004

Perhaps I should clarify my question.

I understand the Tri-fold Ministry and how it works.

My Question is not "what is the trifold ministry", but "how biblical is it"?

Quite honestly I see more of a two fold ministry when I read the Scriptures. What I see is a minister (of some type with some title), and a deacon. I cannot find a distinction between Presbyter/Priest/Elder and Bishop/Episcopos.

I am not denying that the trifold ministry is the right one as of this point. I just have some questions. I (obviously) have accepted the trifold ministry in the past, but every honest Christian questions himself and his beliefs from time to time.

A question about the episcopacy.

I seek sin like a moth towards flame, save me God.

No Surrender, No desertion - Whatever Happens.

No Surrender, No desertion - Whatever Happens.

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Born-again Liberal Episcopalian

I seek sin like a moth towards flame, save me God.

No Surrender, No desertion - Whatever Happens.

Traditional Orthodox Anglican

ahab

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Simple Chicken Farmer

Born-again Liberal Episcopalian

ahab

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Peace be with you

I seek sin like a moth towards flame, save me God.

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