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A progressive Adventist Church
- Thread starter amiel
- Start date
Mate, the church would look exicting. it would be overwhelming, inviting. A place where i'd want to worship!
Im still trying to work out what it exactly might look like.
what would you percieve it to look like? cheers. Keep the flame alive.
Im still trying to work out what it exactly might look like.
what would you percieve it to look like? cheers. Keep the flame alive.
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I guess it would be REAL, RELEVANT, fairly modern but NOT loosing Adventist doctrine as some of these modern churches seem to.
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Yes amiel, i would agree. Yet Real and Relevant are words that are merely thrown around. What do they exactly mean? Many places(churches) have a passion for people, and are good at accomodating for them. Many Churches have a passion for God, but very few churches i believe have an outward passion for God. If your on fire for God people will come and watch you burn. It all depends on how much you want him, your passion for God is the Key. Its not just about the service it's about Church....
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John 17:17 ¶Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 ¶Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
A progressive Adventist church would be one that is united in Christ and filled with the Holy Spirit. God would be preforming miracles in the hearts and lives of the people. Let us progress to following Christ with our whole heart and we will be joined together as one. The world will then see our lights shine in the darkness.
Acts 2:1 ¶And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost,
Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Acts 8:6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.
7 For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed.
8 And there was great joy in that city.
The Holy Spirit works with great power when people put aside themselves and lift up Christ.
Philippians 2:2 Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.
Your sister in Christ,
Lauri
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 ¶Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
A progressive Adventist church would be one that is united in Christ and filled with the Holy Spirit. God would be preforming miracles in the hearts and lives of the people. Let us progress to following Christ with our whole heart and we will be joined together as one. The world will then see our lights shine in the darkness.
Acts 2:1 ¶And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost,
Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Acts 8:6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.
7 For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed.
8 And there was great joy in that city.
The Holy Spirit works with great power when people put aside themselves and lift up Christ.
Philippians 2:2 Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.
Your sister in Christ,
Lauri
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What Lauri said
. The Word of God would be a living active thing in our lives; the Holy Spirit's power would be made manifest in all that we do for God's glory. I mean, just think about it! It's allowing the Holy Spirit to guide us, really guide us. Just thinking about it gives me goosebumps.
. The Word of God would be a living active thing in our lives; the Holy Spirit's power would be made manifest in all that we do for God's glory. I mean, just think about it! It's allowing the Holy Spirit to guide us, really guide us. Just thinking about it gives me goosebumps.
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Hi, Progressive? Modern? I believe the adventist church Traditional or reformed will be what GOD wants it to be when we as His chldren surrender unconditionally to Him. When people see Jesus instead of us then the church will be like the disciples after penecost. When we are fully converted so that Christ lives in us and through us then we will be ready for Heaven.
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JDMiowa
Outside the box
A Progressive Church is what Ellen White hoped for, but feared would not happen!
Can you share any "new light" the SDA church is teaching now it did not teach 50 years age?
Light will come to God's people, and those who have sought to close the door will either repent or be removed out of the way. The time has come when a new impetus must be given to the work. There are terrible scenes before us, and Satan is seeking to keep from our knowledge the very things that God would have us know. God has messengers and messages for his people. If ideas are presented that differ in some points from our former doctrines, we must not condemn them without diligent search of the Bible to see if they are true. We must fast and pray and search the Scriptures as did the noble Bereans, to see if these things are so. We must accept every ray of light that comes to us. Through earnest prayer and diligent study of God's word, dark things will be made plain to the understanding. ST, May 26, 1890 par. 12 ...."
If you named your church, "The Progressive/Moderate SDA Church" you would be sued to remove the, "Adventest" from your name.
Don't mean to sound senicle.
Can you share any "new light" the SDA church is teaching now it did not teach 50 years age?
Light will come to God's people, and those who have sought to close the door will either repent or be removed out of the way. The time has come when a new impetus must be given to the work. There are terrible scenes before us, and Satan is seeking to keep from our knowledge the very things that God would have us know. God has messengers and messages for his people. If ideas are presented that differ in some points from our former doctrines, we must not condemn them without diligent search of the Bible to see if they are true. We must fast and pray and search the Scriptures as did the noble Bereans, to see if these things are so. We must accept every ray of light that comes to us. Through earnest prayer and diligent study of God's word, dark things will be made plain to the understanding. ST, May 26, 1890 par. 12 .
..." If you named your church, "The Progressive/Moderate SDA Church" you would be sued to remove the, "Adventest" from your name.
Don't mean to sound senicle.
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JDMiowa
Outside the box
“In every age there is a new development of truth, a message of God to the people of that generation. The old truths are all essential; new truth is not independent of the old, but an unfolding of it. It is only as the old truths are understood that we can comprehend the new. When Christ desired to open to His disciples the truth of His resurrection, He began "at Moses and all the prophets" and "expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning Himself." Luke 24:27. But it is the light which shines in the freshunfolding of truth that glorifies the old. He who rejects or neglects the new does not really possess the old. For him it loses its vital power and becomes but a lifeless form.” COL 127, 128 EGW. .
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JDMiowa
Outside the box
.....Quotes from Ellen G. White. ....."In regard to infallibility, I NEVER claimed it; God ALONE is Infallible." Selected Messages, Book One, pp 415 and 37
"Let no one come to the conclusion that there is no more truth to be revealed. The diligent, prayerful seeker for truth will find precious rays of light yet to shine forth from the word of God." Counsels on Sabbath School Work, p. 34
"There is no excuse for anyone in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make an error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. Review and Herald, December 20,1892
"We cannot hold that a position once taken, an idea once advocated, is not, under any circumstances, to be relinquished. There is but One who is infallible --- He is the way, the truth, and the life.
"If the pillars of our faith will not stand the test of investigation, it is time we knew it." Testimonies to Ministers, pp 105 and 107
"The Bible and the Bible alone, is our creed, the sole bond of union; all who bow to this holy Word will be in harmony . . . Man is fallible, but God's Word is infallible.
"We have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn. God and heaven alone are infallible. Those who think that they will never have to give up a cherished view, never have occasion to change an opinion, will be disappointed.
"In regard to infallibility, I never claimed it; God alone is infallible. His word is true, and in Him is no variableness, or shadow of turning." Selected Messages, Book One, pp. 416 and 37.
"Our position and faith is in the Bible. . . . And never do we want any soul to bring in the Testimonies ahead of the Bible." Evangelism, p. 256
We are not to accept the opinion of commentators as the voice of God; they are erring mortals like ourselves. God has given reasoning powers to us as well as to them. We should make the Bible its own expositor.
We must study the truth for ourselves. No man should be relied upon to think for us. No matter who he is, or in what position he may be placed, we are not to look upon any man as a criterion for us. Testimonies to Ministers, pp. 106 and 110
Whatever may be mans intellectual advancement, let him not for a moment think that there is no need of thorough and continuous searching of Scripture for greater light. As a people we are called individually to be students of prophecy. We must watch with earnestness that we may discern any ray of light which God shall present to us. We are to catch the first gleamings of truth; and through prayerful study, clearer light may be obtained, which can be brought to others.
Some of our leading brethren have frequently taken their position on the wrong side: and if God would send a message and wait for these older brethren to open the way for its advancement, it would never reach the people.
The rebuke of the Lord will rest upon those who would bar the way, that clearer light shall not come to the people. . . . Let no one run the risk of interposing between the people and the message of heaven. Gospel Workers, pp 300, 303, and 304.
A spirit of pharisaism has been coming in upon the people who claim to believe the truth for these last days. They are self-satisfied. They have said, We have the truth. There is no more light for the people of God. But we are not safe when we take the position that we will not accept anything else than that upon which we have settled as truth. We should take the Bible, and investigate it closely for ourselves. We should dig in the mine of Gods word for truth. Review and Herald, June 18, 1888.
We need to begin all over again. . . . Errors may be hoary with age; but age dos not make error truth, nor truth error. Altogether too long have the old customs and habits been followed. The Lord would now have every idea that is false put away from teachers and students. We are not at liberty to teach that which shall meet the worlds standard or the standard of the church, simply because it is the custom to do so. Testimonies for the Church, vol 6, p. 142. ........
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I believe one of the reasons nearly half of the delegates to the 1860 conference in Battle Creek opposed organization was because there were aware of the tendency of organizations to become self-satisfied / stagnent and they didn't want that to happen to the advent movement.
I also believe hundreds or thousands of people have answered the last question they were asked before their baptism in the affirmative because of confusion about the relationship between the advent movement and the organization that was ostensibly created to promote the movement.
Do you believe the Seventh-day Adventist Church is the remnant church of Bible prophecy.....?
When this question is asked verbally, the person who is being asked doesn't have the opportunity to see that the word "Church" is capitalized and the word "church" isn't. Few realize that the first reference is capitalized because it is a reference to an organization and the second isn't capitalized because it is a reference to the church which may be organized but which consists of all true believers. The remnant of the seed of the woman are believers. The believers may be organized. (I think we should be organized.) But we (believers) are the church. "Our" organization is not the church.
I was one of several candidates the morning of my baptism. I answered the last question, "No." Nobody seemed to notice and I was baptized anyway.
Twenty years later, when my wife requested membership in our denomination, I didn't tell her how I had answered that question. When the conference officer who came to our home to "study" with Sally asked her that question, she answered, "No."
He said, "Then can you please tell me what you DO believe about that?
When he understood what she believed, he said, "I entirely agree with you."
On the morning of her baptism, he changed the wording of that last question.
It seems to me that almost anyone will undestand the problem (and understand what to do about it) who realizes that that the advent movement existed for more than a decade before there was any Seventh-day Adventist organization AND that the first Seventh-day Adventist organziations did not include the word "church" in their official names, eg. Michigan Conference of Seventh-day Adventists; General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists.
It is possible to believe that the advent movement was and is divinely ordained while beling less sure that every decision by the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists in session is divinely ordained.
A person who answered yes to the last question on the morning of his baptism thinking that it was a question about the prophetic nature of the MOVEMENT need not be intimidated by those who insist that he was agreeing to something else.
Roger Metzger
Benzonia, Michigan
I also believe hundreds or thousands of people have answered the last question they were asked before their baptism in the affirmative because of confusion about the relationship between the advent movement and the organization that was ostensibly created to promote the movement.
Do you believe the Seventh-day Adventist Church is the remnant church of Bible prophecy.....?
When this question is asked verbally, the person who is being asked doesn't have the opportunity to see that the word "Church" is capitalized and the word "church" isn't. Few realize that the first reference is capitalized because it is a reference to an organization and the second isn't capitalized because it is a reference to the church which may be organized but which consists of all true believers. The remnant of the seed of the woman are believers. The believers may be organized. (I think we should be organized.) But we (believers) are the church. "Our" organization is not the church.
I was one of several candidates the morning of my baptism. I answered the last question, "No." Nobody seemed to notice and I was baptized anyway.
Twenty years later, when my wife requested membership in our denomination, I didn't tell her how I had answered that question. When the conference officer who came to our home to "study" with Sally asked her that question, she answered, "No."
He said, "Then can you please tell me what you DO believe about that?
When he understood what she believed, he said, "I entirely agree with you."
On the morning of her baptism, he changed the wording of that last question.
It seems to me that almost anyone will undestand the problem (and understand what to do about it) who realizes that that the advent movement existed for more than a decade before there was any Seventh-day Adventist organization AND that the first Seventh-day Adventist organziations did not include the word "church" in their official names, eg. Michigan Conference of Seventh-day Adventists; General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists.
It is possible to believe that the advent movement was and is divinely ordained while beling less sure that every decision by the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists in session is divinely ordained.
A person who answered yes to the last question on the morning of his baptism thinking that it was a question about the prophetic nature of the MOVEMENT need not be intimidated by those who insist that he was agreeing to something else.
Roger Metzger
Benzonia, Michigan
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Roger I realize your post is a little bit old but I shall comment nonetheless. I think your commentary on baptismal vows reveals a deeper problem with the SDA church it's insistence in including doctrines in baptismal vows. This is completely unBiblical. Baptism in the New Testament was about understanding Christs sacrifice and accepting him as Lord and Savior nothing else.
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JojotheBeloved
Part of the Family
I agree with the aforementioned sentiments that we wish/hope/pray that the Adventist Church moving forward will truly be lead by God's Spirit, Christ's love and example, and will accept current understanding that is biblically accurate. I also agree that Ellen White, and the team of leaders she was a part of, never intended this movement to stop moving. Bravo to all those who remember these principles and act accordingly.
As to what a progressive Adventist Church would look like, I'm not sure that it matters in terms of form or function. I think the heart is what needs to be revived. Not just the heart of one individual, but of the united group. I agree that the church would need to be real and current. When I say real, I mean that real human experiences would be accepted and people would seek to understand, rather than seek to change each other. Deep relationships would be valued and purposefully grown among its members, and with community groups and neighbors. Change that does happen would be encouraged as the result of Christ's work, rather than our own efforts. When I say current, I mean that instead of placing our confidece in tradition from 150 years past and looking at our past leaders and history through rose colored glasses - romantisicing what actually happened so it looks like a fantasy - we should rather look forward trusting God to influence our hearts and minds in the world as it is now.
The most important thing that I see currently hindering these ideals: a pattern of thought, teaching, and belief that is predominantly fear-based. Especially in the area of living out biblical principles, the tradition tells us to teach that we are responsible for an eternal outcome. This makes us fearful to make mistakes or do anything wrong. I recently heard a sermon in which a preacher claimed that forgiveness is weak and does not negate personal responsibility. I can't quote exactly, but the message I heard that day was that Christ's sacrifice meant nothing and we still have to earn salvation. When we are afraid to make mistakes, every choice we make is frought with fear. A few examples I grew up hearing a lot were as follows: Q. Why do we keep Sabbath? A. Because the Ten Commandments say so and the remnant church will be those who keep the commandments. Q. Why do we dress modestly? A. Because we don't want people to think badly of us or "cause our brothers to stumble" (this was mostly told to girls). Q. Why do we avoid meats, sugars, alcohol, and all things not vegan? A. Because we don't want to become glutton diabetic alcoholics and die until we've lived at least 100 years (admittedly, this one is a little sarcasticly descripted here, but I have heard variations of this one and they all seem to lead back to "I don't want to die" or "I want to live extrordinarily long"). Do you see the fear that backs up these statements? It doesn't seem like much at first, but when these sentiments pile up it makes for people who are not only fearful for themselves and their own salvation, but critical of others as well. We start to fear the devil more than we trust God. I can't count how many times I've heard and been told, "Watch out! The devil will ...!" Yes the Bible says the devil is a dragon and a lion seeking to devour and destroy, but that's not the Gospel! That's not even the point of the Old Testament! The point of the entire biblical record is: the reality of this world is that it is not what it was nor what it should be, the devil is real and destructive, BUT GOD IS VICTORIOUS ANYWAY!!! GOD ALWAYS WINS!!! So why can't we trust God? The Bible says over and over again that He is trustworthy. It says He loves us more passionately than anyone else ever could. It says He actively intervenes to shield us and fight for us against the devil's snares. So why are we so afraid? I don't think anything will change until we actually put real faith - tested by our behaviors not in the sense of saving ourselves but in the sense of relaxing and living by the heart of Christ not the logic of command - in Christ. I hope and pray for that outcome. That whatever happens, we will all put real faith in Christ and follow Him above all else.
As to what a progressive Adventist Church would look like, I'm not sure that it matters in terms of form or function. I think the heart is what needs to be revived. Not just the heart of one individual, but of the united group. I agree that the church would need to be real and current. When I say real, I mean that real human experiences would be accepted and people would seek to understand, rather than seek to change each other. Deep relationships would be valued and purposefully grown among its members, and with community groups and neighbors. Change that does happen would be encouraged as the result of Christ's work, rather than our own efforts. When I say current, I mean that instead of placing our confidece in tradition from 150 years past and looking at our past leaders and history through rose colored glasses - romantisicing what actually happened so it looks like a fantasy - we should rather look forward trusting God to influence our hearts and minds in the world as it is now.
The most important thing that I see currently hindering these ideals: a pattern of thought, teaching, and belief that is predominantly fear-based. Especially in the area of living out biblical principles, the tradition tells us to teach that we are responsible for an eternal outcome. This makes us fearful to make mistakes or do anything wrong. I recently heard a sermon in which a preacher claimed that forgiveness is weak and does not negate personal responsibility. I can't quote exactly, but the message I heard that day was that Christ's sacrifice meant nothing and we still have to earn salvation. When we are afraid to make mistakes, every choice we make is frought with fear. A few examples I grew up hearing a lot were as follows: Q. Why do we keep Sabbath? A. Because the Ten Commandments say so and the remnant church will be those who keep the commandments. Q. Why do we dress modestly? A. Because we don't want people to think badly of us or "cause our brothers to stumble" (this was mostly told to girls). Q. Why do we avoid meats, sugars, alcohol, and all things not vegan? A. Because we don't want to become glutton diabetic alcoholics and die until we've lived at least 100 years (admittedly, this one is a little sarcasticly descripted here, but I have heard variations of this one and they all seem to lead back to "I don't want to die" or "I want to live extrordinarily long"). Do you see the fear that backs up these statements? It doesn't seem like much at first, but when these sentiments pile up it makes for people who are not only fearful for themselves and their own salvation, but critical of others as well. We start to fear the devil more than we trust God. I can't count how many times I've heard and been told, "Watch out! The devil will ...!" Yes the Bible says the devil is a dragon and a lion seeking to devour and destroy, but that's not the Gospel! That's not even the point of the Old Testament! The point of the entire biblical record is: the reality of this world is that it is not what it was nor what it should be, the devil is real and destructive, BUT GOD IS VICTORIOUS ANYWAY!!! GOD ALWAYS WINS!!! So why can't we trust God? The Bible says over and over again that He is trustworthy. It says He loves us more passionately than anyone else ever could. It says He actively intervenes to shield us and fight for us against the devil's snares. So why are we so afraid? I don't think anything will change until we actually put real faith - tested by our behaviors not in the sense of saving ourselves but in the sense of relaxing and living by the heart of Christ not the logic of command - in Christ. I hope and pray for that outcome. That whatever happens, we will all put real faith in Christ and follow Him above all else.
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