A Preterist Response to 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18

random person said in post 1:

John 5:25, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live."

Click to expand...

John 5:25 indeed says "The hour is coming, and now is [original Greek present tense, not perfect tense], when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live" (John 5:25). "The hour is coming" refers to the still-future time of the 1st resurrection, the physical resurrection of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Romans 8:23-25). In John 5:25, "and now is" referred to the time of Jesus' first coming, when he on the Cross "cried with a loud voice", and some dead people heard it and came back to mortal life (Matthew 27:50,52).

random person said in post 1:

One thing that needs to be mentioned right up front is that there is also a tremendous similarity between the language here in this context (1 Thes. 4-5) and Mat. 23-25 (esp. Matt. 24:29-31).

Click to expand...

That's right.

For Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same (never fulfilled) 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Matthew 24:29 can refer literally to clouds blocking the light from the sun and moon. And it can refer to what we still today call "falling stars", i.e. meteors, but ones which will also be meteorites, i.e. ones which will pass through the clouds and be seen before they land on the earth. So "heaven" in Matthew 24:29-31 can simply refer to the 1st heaven, the sky/atmosphere. Also, "the powers of the heavens" which will be shaken can refer to the literal, fallen-angelic "powers" who currently rule the unsaved world from high above the earth (Ephesians 6:12, Ephesians 2:2).

Matthew 24:30 refers to Jesus' never-fulfilled 2nd coming, when he himself will appear in the clouds: "they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Matthew 24:30). And this won't occur until immediately after the never-fulfilled tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). Matthew 24:30 will occur at the same time as the never-fulfilled Matthew 24:29 and Matthew 24:31.

The "sign of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:30a), if it isn't the sign of the Cross, can be the appearance of Jesus himself (Luke 11:29-30) in the sky at his 2nd coming, when "they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Matthew 24:30b). Before he lands on the earth (Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11-12), he could circle the globe in the sky so that everyone will be able to see his 2nd coming with their own eyes, as Revelation 1:7 and Matthew 24:27,30b require. Or most people could see his 2nd coming via a live, breaking-news video feed to their smartphone, computer, or television. This is also the whole point of Matthew 24:23-31: If Jesus' 2nd coming isn't obvious to everyone at the same time, then it is not really Jesus. Another test is that the church's physical resurrection, and then its gathering together (rapture) to hold a meeting in the sky with the returned Jesus, have to occur at the 2nd coming of the real Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

That is, when Jesus returns, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Revelation 19:7-21, Matthew 24:29-31), he will descend physically from heaven on a white horse (Revelation 19:7-21; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Zechariah 14:3-4, Acts 1:11-12) with all the holy angels (Matthew 25:31; 2 Thessalonians 1:7) for all the world to see (Matthew 24:27,30, Revelation 1:7). Then the church will be physically resurrected (if dead) or changed (if alive) into immortality (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Revelation 20:4-6) and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48) and marry its obedient part (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12) in the clouds, before it mounts white horses and comes back down from sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the world's armies (Revelation 19:19,21), and the Antichrist and False Prophet (Revelation 19:20), and has Lucifer (Satan) bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3).

Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54), while the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's defeated armies (Revelation 19:17-18). Then Jesus and the obedient part of the church will rule the surviving nations with a rod of iron for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 2). After the 1,000 years, Lucifer will be released from the bottomless pit and bring about the Gog/Magog rebellion, only to be defeated for the last time (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

At least 7 years after that defeat (Ezekiel 39:9b), the great white throne judgment will occur, in which all those who hadn't been resurrected and judged at Jesus' return will be resurrected and judged (Revelation 20:11-15). Then God will create a new heaven (a new 1st heaven: a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a new earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1; 2 Peter 3:10b,13). Then God the Father will descend from the 3rd heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2), the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:3), and he will dwell on the earth with Jesus and the church (Revelation 21:3).

In one area outside the walls of New Jerusalem on the new earth will be the lake of fire (Revelation 22:15, Revelation 21:8), in which all of unsaved humanity will be punished forever in fire and brimstone with Lucifer and his fallen angels (Revelation 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46).

random person said in post 1:

The "catching-up" (1 Thess. 4:17) or "gathering" (Matt. 24:31) was accomplished when the faithful remnant of Jewish believers with the in-grafted Gentiles were transformed (and transferred) into Christ's new spiritual Israel. This was accomplished at the same time the old fleshly-based Israel was dissolved at A.D. 70.

Click to expand...

"... what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" (Matthew 24:3).

In Matthew 24:3, the original Greek word (aion: G0165) translated as "world" can be translated as "age" (Ephesians 2:7, Colossians 1:26).

It is sometimes claimed that the end of the age refers to the end of the Old-Covenant age in 70 AD. But the time of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law ended not at the destruction of the 2nd temple in 70 AD, but decades earlier, at the moment Jesus died on the Cross (Matthew 27:50-51a), and abolished the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19), which was the same moment he brought the New Covenant into effect (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17, Hebrews 10:19-20, Matthew 27:51a). So there was no transition period, no overlap at all (Hebrews 10:9b, Hebrews 7:12), between the time of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law and the time of the New Covenant.

Also, while the apostles asked Jesus about the end of the age (Matthew 24:3), he didn't tell them that the end of the age would occur at the destruction of the 2nd temple, or (as is sometimes claimed) before the future tribulation, or even at the end of the future tribulation, i.e. at his (post-tribulation) 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-31), or when the end of the age would occur, just as Jesus didn't tell the apostles many other things during his ministry (John 16:12). It wouldn't be until much later that Jesus would show the apostle John, through the vision in the book of Revelation (given about 95 AD: Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c), that the end of the age, when all the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Matthew 13:40, Matthew 25:41, Revelation 20:15), won't occur until over 1,000 years after Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:15).

random person said in post 1:

In Matthew 16:28, speaking of when it would happen, Jesus claims the same timing as Paul: Jesus said, "Some of you standing here shall not taste death," . . .

Click to expand...

Matthew 16:28, Luke 9:27, and Mark 9:1 were fulfilled at the subsequent transfiguration (Matthew 16:28 to 17:9, Luke 9:27-36, Mark 9:1-9; 2 Peter 1:16-18).

That is, just as the "power", "coming", and "majesty" in 2 Peter 1:16 refer to the transfiguration in 2 Peter 1:17-18, so the "power", "coming", and "kingdom" in Mark 9:1, Matthew 16:28, and Luke 9:27 refer to the subsequent transfiguration in Mark 9:2-9, Matthew 17:1-9, and Luke 9:28-36.

The transfiguration was a coming of the kingdom of God with power (Mark 9:1-9, Luke 9:27-36) in the same sense that Jesus' previous and subsequent casting out of devils was a coming of the kingdom of God with power (Matthew 12:28, Luke 11:20). That is, such events showed that God's power had come to the earth in the person of Jesus Christ.

random person said in post 1:

. . . Paul said "We who are alive and remain."

Click to expand...

1 Thessalonians 4:17 means we believers who will still be alive when the never-fulfilled 2nd coming occurs.

That is, some in the church will still be "alive and remain" at Jesus' 2nd coming and the church's rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

Also, even all those in the church who will die before or during the tribulation will be in the rapture, for it will include all dead believers of all times, right after they have been resurrected (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).

1 Thessalonians 3:13 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 show that at Jesus' 2nd coming, the souls of all obedient dead believers of all times will be brought down from the 3rd heaven with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15), and their souls will descend to the earth and their physical bodies will resurrect/rise from their graves (1 Thessalonians 4:16). Then they and all believers who will survive the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 on the earth (those who will still be "alive and remain") will be raptured up high into the air above the places all around the globe where they will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17a), and then they will be gathered together from the sky (the 1st heaven) all around the globe (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) to the one place in the sky where the returned Jesus will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17b), which will be right above Jerusalem, before he sets his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4-5, Acts 1:11-12).

It is because of this 2nd-coming rapture into the sky, and then the gathering to where in the sky Jesus will be (and then the marriage of the obedient part of the church there to Jesus: Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), that the obedient part of the church will already be with Jesus when he subsequently descends from the sky (the 1st heaven) to the earth (Revelation 19:14, Revelation 17:14, Zechariah 14:5c,4).

random person said in post 1:

What kind of "comfort" is it for the Thessalonians if it's not going to happen for thousands of years? (1 Thessalonians 4:18 )

Click to expand...

The comfort in 1 Thessalonians 4:18 is the comfort that the dead in Christ aren't lost, but their souls will come back from heaven with Jesus at his 2nd coming, and their physical bodies will be resurrected at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Similarly, the comfort in 1 Thessalonians 5:11 applies to those in Christ no matter whether they live or die (1 Thessalonians 5:10-11).

Christians going through any tribulation are comforted by God even while they are going through that tribulation (2 Corinthians 1:3-7; 1 Peter 4:12-13). So Christians will be comforted by God even as they go through the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). They will be waiting for Jesus' 2nd coming and the rapture, which will occur immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).