A polite and serious question

[Gerry]

You have to understand that One Bread One Body is our safe haven. We don't expect to have to defend our faith here. Feel free to ask as many polite questions as you like.
If we seem sensitive it is because we are being over run with anti-Catholics..(many are trolls) Once one leaves, another new one shows up......Annabel Lee

I am not Catholic, but I am not completely unaware of Catholic Doctrine. There are many Catholics in my family and I seriously dated a Catholic girl many many years ago now. I have spent a great deal of time inside Catholic Churches, though I confess most of that time was in the old days when the Masses were done in Latin.

Anyway, things change and most of my relatives are scattered across the country and I am not close to any of  them anymore and I have no Catholic friends in the small town where I live.

So, I am being brave and venturing into this place, all alone and feeling a little vulnerable. However, I know that Vow is here and Annabel, "The Kind and Sensitive Klingon" (and kind and sensitive Catholic too I hope). My question is about Masons.

I have been doing an informal study in this small town about Masons and thier relationships with various religious denominations. I don't know if there is an official Vatican position on this or not, But I would like to know how any of you as individuals feel about the organization, and if there is an official position on it I would love to know.

BTW Annabel, I find that new photo you are sporting to be a bit more intimidating than the other. This one seems more like "The Klingon With An Attitude"! Whew! NOT that there is anything wrong with this one.....In fact I like it. umm, I gotta run now, I think the phone is ringing. PEACE!!!

 

[VOW]

To Gerry:

I can find it for you later, but the OFFICIAL CHURCH POSITION is that Masonry is anti-Christian in foundation, and that it is forbidden for Catholics to become Masons.

I can give you further information by PM, if you wish, after the first of the week. But according to history, it basically began by the actual masons who constructed the cathedrals in Europe in the Middle Ages, I believe, and they didn't like feeling excluded from the "secrecy" of the Church. It was a counter-Catholic movement in intent.

Now, if you listen to the MASONS, it originated from the masons who built the temple of Solomon. (yeah, right) If you dig deep enough, you'll find a pagan deity at the foundation. Oh, good Christian Masons will deny that until their dying breath, but it just doesn't seem quite right.

If a man must join a fraternal organization and wear a funny hat, and elect a grand-Poohbah, then there are countless others which don't have the shadows in their history like the Masons do.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[Annabel Lee]

BTW Annabel, I find that new photo you are sporting to be a bit more intimidating than the other. This one seems more like "The Klingon With An Attitude"! Whew! NOT that there is anything wrong with this one.....In fact I like it. umm, I gotta run now, I think the phone is ringing. PEACE!!!

LOL
I was actually trying to go for a friendlier Klingon look. This one is half human. Doesn't seem to have worked..sigh

Don't leave Gerry. I don't bite! Despite those nasty rumors to the contrary..

 

[Gerry]

Originally posted by VOW
To Gerry:

I can find it for you later, but the OFFICIAL CHURCH POSITION is that Masonry is anti-Christian in foundation, and that it is forbidden for Catholics to become Masons.

I can give you further information by PM, if you wish, after the first of the week. But according to history, it basically began by the actual masons who constructed the cathedrals in Europe in the Middle Ages, I believe, and they didn't like feeling excluded from the "secrecy" of the Church. It was a counter-Catholic movement in intent.

Now, if you listen to the MASONS, it originated from the masons who built the temple of Solomon. (yeah, right) If you dig deep enough, you'll find a pagan deity at the foundation. Oh, good Christian Masons will deny that until their dying breath, but it just doesn't seem quite right.

If a man must join a fraternal organization and wear a funny hat, and elect a grand-Poohbah, then there are countless others which don't have the shadows in their history like the Masons do.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

Thanks Vow! This is exactly what I had hoped to hear, but just had no idea. The studies I have done have proven them to be any thing BUT Christian in nature, so this seems to be a point then that Catholics and non Catholics alike can agree on. See, there is one unifying point to add to the others. And thanks again. I would love to have whatever you can send on this matter.

 

[Gerry]

Originally posted by Annabel Lee


LOL
I was actually trying to go for a friendlier Klingon look. This one is half human. Doesn't seem to have worked..sigh

Don't leave Gerry. I don't bite! Despite those nasty rumors to the contrary..

Well, I must say this one is the most attractive and inviting "klingon" I have ever seen. Yet she seems to be saying, "You BETTER think I am beautiful and sexy, but you better NOT say so." lolololol!!!   The other one seemed to be "innocent" and more of a "baby" in comparison.  Innocent? Baby?? Klingon??? lol

As for not biting, I dunno......Brimshack.....seems to think......

Well, at any rate, Two people I have religious difference's with, seem to be the most humourous and delightful people I have met in a long while, and people I genuinely like and respect. I mean, really, what are the odds?

Generally, I would have to say I am politically conservative, but there is a political liberal on CNN, named Bill Press, for whom I have the utmost respect and admiration, and often find myself even agreeing with him. What on earth is going on???

 

 

[Wolseley]

I was actually trying to go for a friendlier Klingon look. This one is half human. Doesn't seem to have worked..sigh

If you like it, I'm satisfied. But to me, this one looks like a cross between David Bowie and an old boss of mine.

Don't leave Gerry. I don't bite! Despite those nasty rumors to the contrary..

And even if she does, Gerry, she's had all her shots.

Membership in the Masonic Order is forbidden by the Catholic Church, due in part to their shady origins and their secretive nature, but mainly because they conduct Communion ceremonies, and the Church frowns strongly upon a Catholic taking part in any ceremony where the Eucharist is taken lightly, or in a manner not approved by the Church under the proper theological understandings.

This is not to say that Masons are Satanic, or anything of that nature; I have had non-Catholic relatives who were Masons, and to the best of my knowledge, they were all upstanding citizens who didn't go around sacrificing babies to Moloch, or anything.

If a man must join a fraternal organization and wear a funny hat, and elect a grand-Poohbah, then there are countless others which don't have the shadows in their history like the Masons do.

This is true. If you want to wear a funny-looking hat and a cape and have a title like Imperial Grand Admiral of the Western Outhouse, join the Knights of Columbus.

 

[Fr. Rob]

Sadly, many non-Roman Catholic bodies have been more than happy with their members - even their clergy - being members of the Masons.

I can tell you that the Roman Catholic Church and the Primitive Episcopal Church consider membership in the Masonic Lodge to be excommunicable offences (in fact, a RC Bishop in the Midwest, +Burskewitz I believe) gave all Masons in his diocese 30 days to quit the Masons or be excommunicated.

The Episcopal Church is rampant with Masons (many Episcopal "priests" are Masons). How any Christian can join a voluntary fraternal organization that forbids witnessing to "unsaved" folks in a kind manner (i.e., not shoving it down their thorats) is beyond my comprehension.

Those good ole Shriners may do a lot for Kids, but their core-root does little for Christ, and that scares me.

Let's pray for the day when faithful Catholics of whatever stripe (Roman or other) get out of the Shrine. . . the Job's Daughters. . . the Masonic Lodge.

Father Rob
Primtive Episcopal Presbyter

 

[Wolseley]

Funny you should mention him, Fr. Rob, but IMHO, since Cardinal Ratzinger is retiring (lamentably!), Bishop Fabian Bruskewitz would make a fabulous Pope.

 

[jukesk9]

I never joinded a fraternity--partly because I didn't see eye to eye with them and partly because a lot of them require secret oathes and stuff to join. Some of the fraternity folks I knew couldn't talk about their initiation. I may be wrong, the Church may permit membership in frats, but I know She frowns on secret societies.

 

[nyj]

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13human.htm

In summary, it is against Catholic Christian ideals to be a member of the Masons. As such, one cannot be a Catholic AND be a Mason, and if said person refuses to renounce his Masonic vows, he is no longer considered to be a Catholic (ie: he is excommunicated)

 

[Annabel Lee]

The History Channel (THC) is having a documentary tonight on the Freemasons. At 11:00 pm,PT.

 

[Wolseley]

I never joinded a fraternity--partly because I didn't see eye to eye with them and partly because a lot of them require secret oathes and stuff to join. Some of the fraternity folks I knew couldn't talk about their initiation. I may be wrong, the Church may permit membership in frats, but I know She frowns on secret societies.

I never joined a fraternity either; but that was basically due to the fact that when I was in college, the behavior of those frat boys very nearly convinced me that Darwin was right.

 

[nyj]

If you want to wear a funny-looking hat and a cape and have a title like Imperial Grand Admiral of the Western Outhouse, join the Knights of Columbus.

Was that supposed to be funny?

 

[Wolseley]

Yes, it was supposed to be funny. If it offends you, I apologize. It was not my intent to denigrate the KoC.

But IMHO, those outfits they wear are definitely a little odd. Especially those Napoleonic hats with the white plume all down the edges....weird.

Again, if I angered or annoyed you, I am sorry. I admit it was a cheap shot for laughs, and I shouldn't have said what I did.

Now, the Lodge on the Red Green Show, however......

 

[nyj]

Yes, it was supposed to be funny.

It wasn't.

If it offends you, I apologize.

Apology accepted.

But IMHO, those outfits they wear are definitely a little odd. Especially those Napoleonic hats with the white plume all down the edges....weird.

The cape, chapeux and sabre are part of the regalia worn only by members of the Fourth Degree (the Patriotic Degree) of the Knights of Columbus. Colors of the cape and chapeux plume are based on rank within the Fourth Degree Order which has a maritime symbolism to it (since the Orders ideal is based on Christopher Columbus, the first person to bring the Catholic faith to the New World).

While it may be considered "odd" to some, there is no hiding a Fourth Order Knight of Columbus, which is the intention. The Knights of Columbus promise to live a outwardly Catholic Christian life, using their good works for the betterment of the Church, established by Jesus Christ. Called the "Strong Right Arm" of the Church, the Knights of Columbus, and especially the Fourth Degree has been placed in service to the bishops of dioceses of America (and now extending outside the N. American continent) since 1900. Everytime you see the Knights of Columbus in regalia at a Church function, you know they are there are the request of the Church, be it a prayer march to an abortion clinic or an honor guard at a Church celebration.

 

[frandall]

Below is the text of a letter from the Office of the Archdiocesan Tribunal, Archdiocese of Los Angeles, dated September 15, 2000, to the Masonic Service Bureau of North America:

Thank you for your inquiry of September 11, 2000 directed to Cardinal Mahoney, on whose behalf I am replying. The question is "whether a practicing Catholic may join a Masonic Lodge."

Unfortunately, the matter is too complex for a straightforward "yes" or "no" answer. But at least for Catholics in the United States, I believe the answer is probably yes. Permit me to explain this qualified response. 

Your letter states that a member's "allegiance to one God is all we require." To the extent that this is an accurate statement of the organization's beliefs and teachings, and that its activities are humanitarian and charitable in nature, there is no reason to prevent a practicing Catholic from joining.

Past history, of course, has muddied the waters because earlier church law (prior to November 27, 1983) specifically named Masonic groups as a forbidden society (canon 2335, 1917 Code). The dialogues between Catholic and Masonic representatives in the years since the Second Vatican Council were generally very positive and yet did not resolve questions or concerns raised in certain parts of the world. As a result, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in Rome issued a statement one day before the new Code of Canon Law took effect (November 26, 1983), in which it held that since Masonic principles were still contrary to the teachings of the Church, Catholics would commit a grave sin in belonging to Masonic associations and so could not receive Holy Communion.

Because this declaration has not been superseded by any further official statements, the question keeps recurring about its interpretation and application. There is no agreement among the experts in church law who have considered the matter. Consequently one can only judge the individual circumstances in light of the principles that clearly do apply. These principles are set forth in canons 1374 and 1364 of the 1983 Code, which forbid a Catholic from joining "an association which plots against the Church" and impose penalties for heresy under certain conditions. If "a particular Masonic lodge truly promoted heretical teaching or conspired against the interests of the Church" (Ronny E. Jenkins, "The Evolution of the Church's Prohibition Against Catholic Membership in Freemasonry," <I>The Jurist,</I> 56 (1996), pg 735,) then a Catholic would be bound to avoid membership.

The reason, then, I answer 'probably yes' is because I am unaware of any ideology or practice by the local lodges that challenges or subverts the doctrine and interests of the Catholic Church. In the previous paragraph, I have cited the article which best presents the current state of the question. The 1974 newspaper clipping that you enclosed with your letter probably refers to a letter written by Cardinal Seper, then in charge of the same doctrinal congregation mentioned above, which was addressed to certain bishops. In this letter one can see the movement at that time from a blanket prohibition to the application of a case-by-case judgment whether a group did in fact conspire against the Church. The history of the development of the Church's current law suggests that this case-by-case approach is what canon 1374 on forbidden associations intends.&nbsp;

Please forgive this lengthy reply, but a shorter one would not do justice to those inquirers who are aware that the matter is still controversial. I thank you for giving me the opportunity to learn more about it myself, and I close by asking God's blessing on your well-known endeavors to relieve human suffering and assist the needy.

Rev. Thomas C. Anslow, C.M., J.C.L. Judicial Vicar

 

[frandall]

Originally posted by Gerry
Thanks Vow! This is exactly what I had hoped to hear, but just had no idea. The studies I have done have proven them to be any thing BUT Christian in nature, so this seems to be a point then that Catholics and non Catholics alike can agree on. See, there is one unifying point to add to the others.

Dear Gerry,

Please tell me where it is mandated the Freemasonry must be Christian in nature?

I don't know for sure what criteria and sources you used to arrive at your conclusion, but I think you would find other fraternal, business,&nbsp;and social groups (Rotary, Lions Club, chambers of commerce, Eagles, Elks, Moose, and so on) to be "anything BUT Christian" based on the criteria you have applied to our Craft.

Are the criteria you used based on the writings of Saint Paul or on the words of our Lord Jesus Christ? If our teachings, principles, and practices conform to Christ's teachings but not to St. Paul's writing, by whose words&nbsp;is Freemasonry&nbsp;to be judged as being non-Christian in nature? Would not the words of Jesus Christ supercede those of St. Paul?

Freemasonry is neutral regarding the religious beliefs of its members. It favors no one religion over another (as do other non-religion-related organizations). The only religious requirement is that candidates for the degrees and lodge members must believe in the existence of a superintending supreme being. An atheist cannot become a Freemason.

The men who organized Freemasonry in 1717 were all Christians, and for a long time only Christians could join the Fraternity. In Scandanavia still, only Christians can join a Masonic Lodge. Freemasonry became neutral toward religion as a means to allow men of other faiths and religious beliefs to join and to inculcate and apply in their lives the tenets of Brotherly Love, Relief, and Truth (aren't these Christian principles?) and the virtues of Fortitude, Prudence, Temperance, and Justice.

&nbsp;

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

So, I am being brave and venturing into this place, all alone and feeling a little vulnerable. However, I know that Vow is here and Annabel, "The Kind and Sensitive Klingon" (and kind and sensitive Catholic too I hope).

Hey Gerry! Don't worry, I just look rabid.

 

[swalker]

I was driving down the street last week and saw two men from the Knights of Columbus collecting for charity. How can this organization say that it contributing to charity, when in fact, it is asking the general public to donate, instead of having the members contribute (which I know they also do.)

It seems that they are taking their que from corporate America, which also has companies that ask their customers to donate money for worthy causes and then says that the COMPANY is making the contribution. Isn't this WRONG? DOES ANYONE UNDERSTAND WHAT I AM SAYING? Is there no morality left in this world?

 

[seebs]

I'm afraid you'll have to put me down as not understanding. Can you be more specific in your explanation of the problem?