A New(?) Argument Against Drinking Alcohol--Any Good Challenges?

DavidAnderson1985 said:

I think the issue here is that the Bible doesn't explicitly prohibit slavery because it had practical value at the time. If 30,000 men invade your country, and 10,000 killed, maybe 8,000 captured... what do you do with the captured? Release them? Kill them? Put together a massive pow camp and do prisoner exchanges? No. Slavery was the best and most humane option.

This is also true with debt collection and criminals. Bad credit? Debtor prison? Bankruptcy laws? Petty theft being put in jail?

No. Slavery made sense in many ways. For God to forbid it altogether would have been ridiculous. Alcohol also had practical reasons. It also inhabited good situations.

In this day and age though, things have changed. Both slavery and alcohol need to go away.

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DavidAnderson1985 said:

I believe drinking alcohol is not a sin (that is important to remember), but Christians should not drink, should actively encourage the church community to refrain from drinking, and would do well to restrict the use of alcohol as much as possible in their surrounding communities. This is the base-line belief, and I will offer a Biblically-based argument in favor of it and a few challenges to anyone who would disagree with it. Challenges welcomed!

There is a thread in Scripture and Christian history of repudiating, for Scripturally-based reasons, certain social practices that exist in the Bible. The three foremost examples are polygamy, slavery, and drinking alcohol. First challenge: is there any clear Biblical prohibition, for all believers, against polygamy or slavery, in God's Word? Or is there any declaration of either as a sin? Is there any passage or verse in the Bible that explicitly tells Christians to advocate for the abolition of either in their societies?

Not only is there no verse that clearly prohibits polygamy or slavery for the general population of believers, there are clear verses where both practices are condoned by God, at least in certain instances (Polygamy: 1 Samuel 12:8--God speaking. Slavery: Exodus 21, Leviticus 25:44-46).

Why have Christians then come to oppose both polygamy and slavery? Although both had practical reasons for their existence at a certain point in time, both looked different in Biblical times than the purely negative forms they have taken in modernity, and both were explicitly condoned by God in the Bible; there were issues that Christians ended up having with them, over time. Both have negative examples in Scriptural stories, the ideal situation given as examples of higher spiritual things are neither (marriage as between one man and one woman is a picture of Christ and the Church; Christ frees us from the bondage of sin), and both are seen to be negative for those in spiritual authority in the church age...and even in places in the Old Testament (elders to have one wife; the treatment of Onesiumus in Philemon; various pieces of wisdom and commands given to kings and priests). Both social practices were fraught with abuse towards people and became damaging to society.

Christians moved away from polygamy (Roman society was already more based in monogamy, but distant parts of the empire were not) early on. Christians actively advocated against slavery, eventually (because the form it had taken was clearly unscriptural, and higher ideals of freedom and all men being equal began to be in conflict with it). Christians then moved to remove alcohol from their subculture and general society because of various problems associated with it in Scripture, negative stories in the Bible about it, because of rules and laws restricting its use with spiritual leaders in the Bible (kings, priests and elders in churches), and lastly because of the way its use had changed in our society and the disappearance of it as a practical need.

My challenge to drinking Christians: if alcohol is not to be actively preached against (not drunkenness alone, but drinking alcohol in general) because the Bible does not explicity state it as a sin, should Christians also refuse to preach against polygamy if it arises (which it will) or speak against it in Christian circles; or, should they have sought the abolition of slavery or spoken against such a practice for Christians?

I think polygamy should not be practiced by Christians and society. I think slavery should not be practiced by Christians and society. I think drinking alcohol should not be practiced by Christians and society. But I think none of these are sin, inherently. Nonetheless, I do think none of these are things Christians should do--for Scriptural reasons.

And the Scriptural reasons against alcohol are much, much more stringent and numerous than they are for either polygamy or slavery. Its an easier argument to make against drinking alcohol than the other two practices.

Thanks for reading this lengthy post, and feel free to offer a challenge, I'd be interested if there are any good ones, because I haven't heard any in general conversation.

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TuxAme said:

If God necessarily wanted us to avoid drinking, He did a very bad job at telling us that (and since I'm not of the opinion that God has done a bad job at anything, I'm inclined to disagree that drinking is so bad). Drunkenness is a sin, but nowhere in Scripture or Tradition is there a general prohibition on drinking- all we see is that too much leads one to drunkenness (and sin), and that priests, kings and rulers should avoid it at certain times.

There's also the fact that Jesus turned hundreds of gallons of water into wine, knowing that it would be consumed (unless you believe that Jesus desired to lead the wedding guests into sin, you can't hold that alcohol consumption is sinful). Then, at the Last Supper, Jesus passed around a chalice of wine (and later His Blood), telling His apostles to drink both. And then, on the cross, He drank wine that was offered to Him (should we believe that He sinned in His final moments?).

Again, if abstaining from alcohol is what God wanted, He did a bad job of telling us (and we shouldn't believe that He has done a bad job in anything)

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SkyWriting said:

The new covenant has done away with all prohibitions in the old covenant and given us Jewish experience and history to illustrate that prohibitions are ungainly and that they don't work.

What Does the Bible Say About The New Covenant in Jesus? - OpenBible.info

God has set up local governments to create and enforce laws to the public as He sees fit.
Local laws are now God's will for us.

Romans 13:1-7
1 Peter 2:13-17

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DavidAnderson1985 said:

I believe drinking alcohol is not a sin (that is important to remember), but Christians should not drink, should actively encourage the church community to refrain from drinking, and would do well to restrict the use of alcohol as much as possible in their surrounding communities. This is the base-line belief, and I will offer a Biblically-based argument in favor of it and a few challenges to anyone who would disagree with it. Challenges welcomed!

There is a thread in Scripture and Christian history of repudiating, for Scripturally-based reasons, certain social practices that exist in the Bible. The three foremost examples are polygamy, slavery, and drinking alcohol. First challenge: is there any clear Biblical prohibition, for all believers, against polygamy or slavery, in God's Word? Or is there any declaration of either as a sin? Is there any passage or verse in the Bible that explicitly tells Christians to advocate for the abolition of either in their societies?

Not only is there no verse that clearly prohibits polygamy or slavery for the general population of believers, there are clear verses where both practices are condoned by God, at least in certain instances (Polygamy: 1 Samuel 12:8--God speaking. Slavery: Exodus 21, Leviticus 25:44-46).

Why have Christians then come to oppose both polygamy and slavery? Although both had practical reasons for their existence at a certain point in time, both looked different in Biblical times than the purely negative forms they have taken in modernity, and both were explicitly condoned by God in the Bible; there were issues that Christians ended up having with them, over time. Both have negative examples in Scriptural stories, the ideal situation given as examples of higher spiritual things are neither (marriage as between one man and one woman is a picture of Christ and the Church; Christ frees us from the bondage of sin), and both are seen to be negative for those in spiritual authority in the church age...and even in places in the Old Testament (elders to have one wife; the treatment of Onesiumus in Philemon; various pieces of wisdom and commands given to kings and priests). Both social practices were fraught with abuse towards people and became damaging to society.

Christians moved away from polygamy (Roman society was already more based in monogamy, but distant parts of the empire were not) early on. Christians actively advocated against slavery, eventually (because the form it had taken was clearly unscriptural, and higher ideals of freedom and all men being equal began to be in conflict with it). Christians then moved to remove alcohol from their subculture and general society because of various problems associated with it in Scripture, negative stories in the Bible about it, because of rules and laws restricting its use with spiritual leaders in the Bible (kings, priests and elders in churches), and lastly because of the way its use had changed in our society and the disappearance of it as a practical need.

My challenge to drinking Christians: if alcohol is not to be actively preached against (not drunkenness alone, but drinking alcohol in general) because the Bible does not explicity state it as a sin, should Christians also refuse to preach against polygamy if it arises (which it will) or speak against it in Christian circles; or, should they have sought the abolition of slavery or spoken against such a practice for Christians?

I think polygamy should not be practiced by Christians and society. I think slavery should not be practiced by Christians and society. I think drinking alcohol should not be practiced by Christians and society. But I think none of these are sin, inherently. Nonetheless, I do think none of these are things Christians should do--for Scriptural reasons.

And the Scriptural reasons against alcohol are much, much more stringent and numerous than they are for either polygamy or slavery. Its an easier argument to make against drinking alcohol than the other two practices.

Thanks for reading this lengthy post, and feel free to offer a challenge, I'd be interested if there are any good ones, because I haven't heard any in general conversation. I believe drinking alcohol is not a sin (that is important to remember), but Christians should not drink, should actively encourage the church community to refrain from drinking, and would do well to restrict the use of alcohol as much as possible in their surrounding communities. This is the base-line belief, and I will offer a Biblically-based argument in favor of it and a few challenges to anyone who would disagree with it. Challenges welcomed!

There is a thread in Scripture and Christian history of repudiating, for Scripturally-based reasons, certain social practices that exist in the Bible. The three foremost examples are polygamy, slavery, and drinking alcohol. First challenge: is there any clear Biblical prohibition, for all believers, against polygamy or slavery, in God's Word? Or is there any declaration of either as a sin? Is there any passage or verse in the Bible that explicitly tells Christians to advocate for the abolition of either in their societies?

Not only is there no verse that clearly prohibits polygamy or slavery for the general population of believers, there are clear verses where both practices are condoned by God, at least in certain instances (Polygamy: 1 Samuel 12:8--God speaking. Slavery: Exodus 21, Leviticus 25:44-46).

Why have Christians then come to oppose both polygamy and slavery? Although both had practical reasons for their existence at a certain point in time, both looked different in Biblical times than the purely negative forms they have taken in modernity, and both were explicitly condoned by God in the Bible; there were issues that Christians ended up having with them, over time. Both have negative examples in Scriptural stories, the ideal situation given as examples of higher spiritual things are neither (marriage as between one man and one woman is a picture of Christ and the Church; Christ frees us from the bondage of sin), and both are seen to be negative for those in spiritual authority in the church age...and even in places in the Old Testament (elders to have one wife; the treatment of Onesiumus in Philemon; various pieces of wisdom and commands given to kings and priests). Both social practices were fraught with abuse towards people and became damaging to society.

Christians moved away from polygamy (Roman society was already more based in monogamy, but distant parts of the empire were not) early on. Christians actively advocated against slavery, eventually (because the form it had taken was clearly unscriptural, and higher ideals of freedom and all men being equal began to be in conflict with it). Christians then moved to remove alcohol from their subculture and general society because of various problems associated with it in Scripture, negative stories in the Bible about it, because of rules and laws restricting its use with spiritual leaders in the Bible (kings, priests and elders in churches), and lastly because of the way its use had changed in our society and the disappearance of it as a practical need.

My challenge to drinking Christians: if alcohol is not to be actively preached against (not drunkenness alone, but drinking alcohol in general) because the Bible does not explicity state it as a sin, should Christians also refuse to preach against polygamy if it arises (which it will) or speak against it in Christian circles; or, should they have sought the abolition of slavery or spoken against such a practice for Christians?

I think polygamy should not be practiced by Christians and society. I think slavery should not be practiced by Christians and society. I think drinking alcohol should not be practiced by Christians and society. But I think none of these are sin, inherently. Nonetheless, I do think none of these are things Christians should do--for Scriptural reasons.

And the Scriptural reasons against alcohol are much, much more stringent and numerous than they are for either polygamy or slavery. Its an easier argument to make against drinking alcohol than the other two practices.

Thanks for reading this lengthy post, and feel free to offer a challenge, I'd be interested if there are any good ones, because I haven't heard any in general conversation.

Click to expand...

DavidAnderson1985 said:

I believe drinking alcohol is not a sin (that is important to remember), but Christians should not drink, should actively encourage the church community to refrain from drinking, and would do well to restrict the use of alcohol as much as possible in their surrounding communities. This is the base-line belief, and I will offer a Biblically-based argument in favor of it and a few challenges to anyone who would disagree with it. Challenges welcomed!

There is a thread in Scripture and Christian history of repudiating, for Scripturally-based reasons, certain social practices that exist in the Bible. The three foremost examples are polygamy, slavery, and drinking alcohol. First challenge: is there any clear Biblical prohibition, for all believers, against polygamy or slavery, in God's Word? Or is there any declaration of either as a sin? Is there any passage or verse in the Bible that explicitly tells Christians to advocate for the abolition of either in their societies?

Not only is there no verse that clearly prohibits polygamy or slavery for the general population of believers, there are clear verses where both practices are condoned by God, at least in certain instances (Polygamy: 1 Samuel 12:8--God speaking. Slavery: Exodus 21, Leviticus 25:44-46).

Why have Christians then come to oppose both polygamy and slavery? Although both had practical reasons for their existence at a certain point in time, both looked different in Biblical times than the purely negative forms they have taken in modernity, and both were explicitly condoned by God in the Bible; there were issues that Christians ended up having with them, over time. Both have negative examples in Scriptural stories, the ideal situation given as examples of higher spiritual things are neither (marriage as between one man and one woman is a picture of Christ and the Church; Christ frees us from the bondage of sin), and both are seen to be negative for those in spiritual authority in the church age...and even in places in the Old Testament (elders to have one wife; the treatment of Onesiumus in Philemon; various pieces of wisdom and commands given to kings and priests). Both social practices were fraught with abuse towards people and became damaging to society.

Christians moved away from polygamy (Roman society was already more based in monogamy, but distant parts of the empire were not) early on. Christians actively advocated against slavery, eventually (because the form it had taken was clearly unscriptural, and higher ideals of freedom and all men being equal began to be in conflict with it). Christians then moved to remove alcohol from their subculture and general society because of various problems associated with it in Scripture, negative stories in the Bible about it, because of rules and laws restricting its use with spiritual leaders in the Bible (kings, priests and elders in churches), and lastly because of the way its use had changed in our society and the disappearance of it as a practical need.

My challenge to drinking Christians: if alcohol is not to be actively preached against (not drunkenness alone, but drinking alcohol in general) because the Bible does not explicity state it as a sin, should Christians also refuse to preach against polygamy if it arises (which it will) or speak against it in Christian circles; or, should they have sought the abolition of slavery or spoken against such a practice for Christians?

I think polygamy should not be practiced by Christians and society. I think slavery should not be practiced by Christians and society. I think drinking alcohol should not be practiced by Christians and society. But I think none of these are sin, inherently. Nonetheless, I do think none of these are things Christians should do--for Scriptural reasons.

And the Scriptural reasons against alcohol are much, much more stringent and numerous than they are for either polygamy or slavery. Its an easier argument to make against drinking alcohol than the other two practices.

Thanks for reading this lengthy post, and feel free to offer a challenge, I'd be interested if there are any good ones, because I haven't heard any in general conversation.

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DavidAnderson1985 said:

Hmm. I don't understand your point. I know we have a New Covenant. In some ways we have a higher standard: "he that looketh upon a woman"

I think the passing of alcohol is inevitable in this New Covenant. We are not just priests in a Temple. We are priests and the temple.

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MonstersvsMartyrs said:

1 Timothy 5:23
Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.

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Celticroots said:

Drinking alcohol in moderation is not sinful. I’ll continue to enjoy a glass of wine once in a while.

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twin.spin said:

Could you tell us how you are able to have Bible verses listed and not have the default ASV automatically appear.

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Loyce KG said:

By the way, nowhere in the New Testament is the communion drink called “wine.” Now, it probably was, I am not arguing it wasn’t. But nowhere is communion called “wine.” It is usually called the cup, or it is called the fruit of the vine. As we know it it could have been grape juice.

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DavidAnderson1985 said:

I believe drinking alcohol is not a sin (that is important to remember), but Christians should not drink, should actively encourage the church community to refrain from drinking, and would do well to restrict the use of alcohol as much as possible in their surrounding communities. This is the base-line belief, and I will offer a Biblically-based argument in favor of it and a few challenges to anyone who would disagree with it. Challenges welcomed!

There is a thread in Scripture and Christian history of repudiating, for Scripturally-based reasons, certain social practices that exist in the Bible. The three foremost examples are polygamy, slavery, and drinking alcohol. First challenge: is there any clear Biblical prohibition, for all believers, against polygamy or slavery, in God's Word? Or is there any declaration of either as a sin? Is there any passage or verse in the Bible that explicitly tells Christians to advocate for the abolition of either in their societies?

Not only is there no verse that clearly prohibits polygamy or slavery for the general population of believers, there are clear verses where both practices are condoned by God, at least in certain instances (Polygamy: 1 Samuel 12:8--God speaking. Slavery: Exodus 21, Leviticus 25:44-46).

Why have Christians then come to oppose both polygamy and slavery? Although both had practical reasons for their existence at a certain point in time, both looked different in Biblical times than the purely negative forms they have taken in modernity, and both were explicitly condoned by God in the Bible; there were issues that Christians ended up having with them, over time. Both have negative examples in Scriptural stories, the ideal situation given as examples of higher spiritual things are neither (marriage as between one man and one woman is a picture of Christ and the Church; Christ frees us from the bondage of sin), and both are seen to be negative for those in spiritual authority in the church age...and even in places in the Old Testament (elders to have one wife; the treatment of Onesiumus in Philemon; various pieces of wisdom and commands given to kings and priests). Both social practices were fraught with abuse towards people and became damaging to society.

Christians moved away from polygamy (Roman society was already more based in monogamy, but distant parts of the empire were not) early on. Christians actively advocated against slavery, eventually (because the form it had taken was clearly unscriptural, and higher ideals of freedom and all men being equal began to be in conflict with it). Christians then moved to remove alcohol from their subculture and general society because of various problems associated with it in Scripture, negative stories in the Bible about it, because of rules and laws restricting its use with spiritual leaders in the Bible (kings, priests and elders in churches), and lastly because of the way its use had changed in our society and the disappearance of it as a practical need.

My challenge to drinking Christians: if alcohol is not to be actively preached against (not drunkenness alone, but drinking alcohol in general) because the Bible does not explicity state it as a sin, should Christians also refuse to preach against polygamy if it arises (which it will) or speak against it in Christian circles; or, should they have sought the abolition of slavery or spoken against such a practice for Christians?

I think polygamy should not be practiced by Christians and society. I think slavery should not be practiced by Christians and society. I think drinking alcohol should not be practiced by Christians and society. But I think none of these are sin, inherently. Nonetheless, I do think none of these are things Christians should do--for Scriptural reasons.

And the Scriptural reasons against alcohol are much, much more stringent and numerous than they are for either polygamy or slavery. Its an easier argument to make against drinking alcohol than the other two practices.

Thanks for reading this lengthy post, and feel free to offer a challenge, I'd be interested if there are any good ones, because I haven't heard any in general conversation.

Click to expand...