A New(?) Argument Against Drinking Alcohol--Any Good Challenges?

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I believe drinking alcohol is not a sin (that is important to remember), but Christians should not drink, should actively encourage the church community to refrain from drinking, and would do well to restrict the use of alcohol as much as possible in their surrounding communities. This is the base-line belief, and I will offer a Biblically-based argument in favor of it and a few challenges to anyone who would disagree with it. Challenges welcomed!

There is a thread in Scripture and Christian history of repudiating, for Scripturally-based reasons, certain social practices that exist in the Bible. The three foremost examples are polygamy, slavery, and drinking alcohol. First challenge: is there any clear Biblical prohibition, for all believers, against polygamy or slavery, in God's Word? Or is there any declaration of either as a sin? Is there any passage or verse in the Bible that explicitly tells Christians to advocate for the abolition of either in their societies?

Not only is there no verse that clearly prohibits polygamy or slavery for the general population of believers, there are clear verses where both practices are condoned by God, at least in certain instances (Polygamy: 1 Samuel 12:8--God speaking. Slavery: Exodus 21, Leviticus 25:44-46).

Why have Christians then come to oppose both polygamy and slavery? Although both had practical reasons for their existence at a certain point in time, both looked different in Biblical times than the purely negative forms they have taken in modernity, and both were explicitly condoned by God in the Bible; there were issues that Christians ended up having with them, over time. Both have negative examples in Scriptural stories, the ideal situation given as examples of higher spiritual things are neither (marriage as between one man and one woman is a picture of Christ and the Church; Christ frees us from the bondage of sin), and both are seen to be negative for those in spiritual authority in the church age...and even in places in the Old Testament (elders to have one wife; the treatment of Onesiumus in Philemon; various pieces of wisdom and commands given to kings and priests). Both social practices were fraught with abuse towards people and became damaging to society.

Christians moved away from polygamy (Roman society was already more based in monogamy, but distant parts of the empire were not) early on. Christians actively advocated against slavery, eventually (because the form it had taken was clearly unscriptural, and higher ideals of freedom and all men being equal began to be in conflict with it). Christians then moved to remove alcohol from their subculture and general society because of various problems associated with it in Scripture, negative stories in the Bible about it, because of rules and laws restricting its use with spiritual leaders in the Bible (kings, priests and elders in churches), and lastly because of the way its use had changed in our society and the disappearance of it as a practical need.

My challenge to drinking Christians: if alcohol is not to be actively preached against (not drunkenness alone, but drinking alcohol in general) because the Bible does not explicity state it as a sin, should Christians also refuse to preach against polygamy if it arises (which it will) or speak against it in Christian circles; or, should they have sought the abolition of slavery or spoken against such a practice for Christians?

I think polygamy should not be practiced by Christians and society. I think slavery should not be practiced by Christians and society. I think drinking alcohol should not be practiced by Christians and society. But I think none of these are sin, inherently. Nonetheless, I do think none of these are things Christians should do--for Scriptural reasons.

And the Scriptural reasons against alcohol are much, much more stringent and numerous than they are for either polygamy or slavery. Its an easier argument to make against drinking alcohol than the other two practices.

Thanks for reading this lengthy post, and feel free to offer a challenge, I'd be interested if there are any good ones, because I haven't heard any in general conversation.
 

Dansiph

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I believe drinking alcohol is not a sin (that is important to remember), but Christians should not drink, should actively encourage the church community to refrain from drinking, and would do well to restrict the use of alcohol as much as possible in their surrounding communities. This is the base-line belief, and I will offer a Biblically-based argument in favor of it and a few challenges to anyone who would disagree with it. Challenges welcomed!

There is a thread in Scripture and Christian history of repudiating, for Scripturally-based reasons, certain social practices that exist in the Bible. The three foremost examples are polygamy, slavery, and drinking alcohol. First challenge: is there any clear Biblical prohibition, for all believers, against polygamy or slavery, in God's Word? Or is there any declaration of either as a sin? Is there any passage or verse in the Bible that explicitly tells Christians to advocate for the abolition of either in their societies?

Not only is there no verse that clearly prohibits polygamy or slavery for the general population of believers, there are clear verses where both practices are condoned by God, at least in certain instances (Polygamy: 1 Samuel 12:8--God speaking. Slavery: Exodus 21, Leviticus 25:44-46).

Why have Christians then come to oppose both polygamy and slavery? Although both had practical reasons for their existence at a certain point in time, both looked different in Biblical times than the purely negative forms they have taken in modernity, and both were explicitly condoned by God in the Bible; there were issues that Christians ended up having with them, over time. Both have negative examples in Scriptural stories, the ideal situation given as examples of higher spiritual things are neither (marriage as between one man and one woman is a picture of Christ and the Church; Christ frees us from the bondage of sin), and both are seen to be negative for those in spiritual authority in the church age...and even in places in the Old Testament (elders to have one wife; the treatment of Onesiumus in Philemon; various pieces of wisdom and commands given to kings and priests). Both social practices were fraught with abuse towards people and became damaging to society.

Christians moved away from polygamy (Roman society was already more based in monogamy, but distant parts of the empire were not) early on. Christians actively advocated against slavery, eventually (because the form it had taken was clearly unscriptural, and higher ideals of freedom and all men being equal began to be in conflict with it). Christians then moved to remove alcohol from their subculture and general society because of various problems associated with it in Scripture, negative stories in the Bible about it, because of rules and laws restricting its use with spiritual leaders in the Bible (kings, priests and elders in churches), and lastly because of the way its use had changed in our society and the disappearance of it as a practical need.

My challenge to drinking Christians: if alcohol is not to be actively preached against (not drunkenness alone, but drinking alcohol in general) because the Bible does not explicity state it as a sin, should Christians also refuse to preach against polygamy if it arises (which it will) or speak against it in Christian circles; or, should they have sought the abolition of slavery or spoken against such a practice for Christians?

I think polygamy should not be practiced by Christians and society. I think slavery should not be practiced by Christians and society. I think drinking alcohol should not be practiced by Christians and society. But I think none of these are sin, inherently. Nonetheless, I do think none of these are things Christians should do--for Scriptural reasons.

And the Scriptural reasons against alcohol are much, much more stringent and numerous than they are for either polygamy or slavery. Its an easier argument to make against drinking alcohol than the other two practices.

Thanks for reading this lengthy post, and feel free to offer a challenge, I'd be interested if there are any good ones, because I haven't heard any in general conversation.

I don't drink and I can't see anything I disagree with in your post atm.

For me as you said, The Bible is against being drunk. To me being drunk can easily happen even with one beer. So that's my added point. If it's not drunkenness, what is it when you are "feeling the effects" of alcohol but aren't what society deems as "drunk"?
 
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TuxAme

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If God necessarily wanted us to avoid drinking, He did a very bad job at telling us that (and since I'm not of the opinion that God has done a bad job at anything, I'm inclined to disagree that drinking is so bad). Drunkenness is a sin, but nowhere in Scripture or Tradition is there a general prohibition on drinking- all we see is that too much leads one to drunkenness (and sin), and that priests, kings and rulers should avoid it at certain times.

There's also the fact that Jesus turned hundreds of gallons of water into wine, knowing that it would be consumed (unless you believe that Jesus desired to lead the wedding guests into sin, you can't hold that alcohol consumption is sinful). Then, at the Last Supper, Jesus passed around a chalice of wine (and later His Blood), telling His apostles to drink both. And then, on the cross, He drank wine that was offered to Him (should we believe that He sinned in His final moments?).

Again, if abstaining from alcohol is what God wanted, He did a bad job of telling us (and we shouldn't believe that He has done a bad job in anything)
 
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Basil the Great

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David - You get no argument from me re: the problems associated with drinking alcohol. Yes, it is true that drinking red wine does help some people with heart issues. However, this must be weighed against the fact that alcohol intake is associated with rape, sexual abuse, child abuse, spousal abuse, traffic accident deaths, multiple cancers, child birth defects, etc. It is a personal decision and considering how Prohibition failed badly 90 years ago and how society has changed since then, it is not realistic to think that we will be able to convince many Christians who now drink to give up drinking. It is possible that overtime more and more Christians will slowly come to agree with us, not for religious reasons, but for health reasons. All we can do is hope for the best, but I am not optimistic that we will see much change anytime soon.

By the way, welcome to the forums and may God bless you very much!
 
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Again, if abstaining from alcohol is what God wanted, He did a bad job of telling us (and we shouldn't believe that He has done a bad job in anything)
Did you consider God's lack of prohibition of slavery or polygamy and think about what that means for drinking alcohol?
 
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David - You get no argument from me re: the problems associated with drinking alcohol. Yes, it is true that drinking red wine does help some people with heart issues. However, this must be weighed against the fact that alcohol intake is associated with rape, sexual abuse, child abuse, spousal abuse, traffic accident deaths, multiple cancers, child birth defects, etc. It is a personal decision and considering how Prohibition failed badly 90 years ago and how society has changed since then, it is not realistic to think that we will be able to convince many Christians who now drink to give up drinking. It is possible that overtime more and more Christians will slowly come to agree with us, not for religious reasons, but for health reasons. All we can do is hope for the best, but I am not optimistic that we will see much change anytime soon.

By the way, welcome to the forums and may God bless you very much!
David - You get no argument from me re: the problems associated with drinking alcohol. Yes, it is true that drinking red wine does help some people with heart issues. However, this must be weighed against the fact that alcohol intake is associated with rape, sexual abuse, child abuse, spousal abuse, traffic accident deaths, multiple cancers, child birth defects, etc. It is a personal decision and considering how Prohibition failed badly 90 years ago and how society has changed since then, it is not realistic to think that we will be able to convince many Christians who now drink to give up drinking. It is possible that overtime more and more Christians will slowly come to agree with us, not for religious reasons, but for health reasons. All we can do is hope for the best, but I am not optimistic that we will see much change anytime soon.

By the way, welcome to the forums and may God bless you very much!
Thank you! I joined specifically to discuss this, but it looks like there are a lot of interesting topics I can learn from on here. God's blessing on you as well.

Do you see an issue with the argument about Christians acting against things that are not necessarily sins, if the are addressed in the Bible (polygamy, slavery, etc)? That was the main point I'm looking for push-back against.
 
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SkyWriting

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I don't drink and I can't see anything I disagree with in your post atm.

For me as you said, The Bible is against being drunk. To me being drunk can easily happen even with one beer. So that's my added point. If it's not drunkenness, what is it when you are "feeling the effects" of alcohol but aren't what society deems as "drunk"?

Thanks for the comment! To reinforce the point I'm making in the post, would you tell a slavery abolitionist that slavery is only wrong if the master is mistreating his slave, and one shouldn't say slavery shouldn't exist as an institution at all?
 
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Thanks for the Scriptures! I believe the Golden Rule is one of the many Scriptural reasons abolitionists wanted to get rid of slavery. But I do not think that those verses state that slavery or polygamy are sins inherently, any more than I think 1 Corinthinans 10:23 prohibits drinking alcohol explicitly.
 
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SkyWriting

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if alcohol is not to be actively preached against


7 Jesus said to the servants, “Fill the jars with water.” And they filled them up to the brim. 8 And he said to them, “Now draw some out and take it to the master of the feast.” So they took it.
9 When the master of the feast tasted the water now become wine, and did not know where it came from
 
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Basil the Great

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Thank you! I joined specifically to discuss this, but it looks like there are a lot of interesting topics I can learn from on here. God's blessing on you as well.

Do you see an issue with the argument about Christians acting against things that are not necessarily sins, if the are addressed in the Bible (polygamy, slavery, etc)? That was the main point I'm looking for push-back against.
It is hard to say, David. Some will say that if the Bible does not specifically declare something a no-no, then we are free to choose. Others will say that the commandment to love God and your neighbor covers many things not specifically touched on in Scripture, including slavery. As for drinking, if one has an alcoholic in the family or within a group of friends, and yet alcohol is served in his/her presence, then that would seem to violate the commandment to love our neighbor, as we are tempting said person to become drunk.
 
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SkyWriting

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Thanks for the Scriptures! I believe the Golden Rule is one of the many Scriptural reasons abolitionists wanted to get rid of slavery. But I do not think that those verses state that slavery or polygamy are sins inherently,
Correct. If you would wish to be beaten as a slave,
you may treat others that way as well.
That's rare enough though.

If you wish to be forced to be part of a harem of men,
you may force others to be harem of women for you as well.
 
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Thanks for reading this lengthy post, and feel free to offer a challenge, I'd be interested if there are any good ones, because I haven't heard any in general conversation.
I don't see in your post an argument for preaching against alcohol consumption. Yes, it's true that polygamy and slavery are condoned in the Bible and that we have nevertheless decided that they are not valid options for Christians. So what? Why should that have any implications for alcohol? Lots of things are condoned in the Bible. Each issue has to be considered on its own.
 
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I believe drinking alcohol is not a sin (that is important to remember), but Christians should not drink, should actively encourage the church community to refrain from drinking, and would do well to restrict the use of alcohol as much as possible in their surrounding communities. This is the base-line belief, and I will offer a Biblically-based argument in favor of it and a few challenges to anyone who would disagree with it. Challenges welcomed!

There is a thread in Scripture and Christian history of repudiating, for Scripturally-based reasons, certain social practices that exist in the Bible. The three foremost examples are polygamy, slavery, and drinking alcohol. First challenge: is there any clear Biblical prohibition, for all believers, against polygamy or slavery, in God's Word? Or is there any declaration of either as a sin? Is there any passage or verse in the Bible that explicitly tells Christians to advocate for the abolition of either in their societies?

Not only is there no verse that clearly prohibits polygamy or slavery for the general population of believers, there are clear verses where both practices are condoned by God, at least in certain instances (Polygamy: 1 Samuel 12:8--God speaking. Slavery: Exodus 21, Leviticus 25:44-46).

Why have Christians then come to oppose both polygamy and slavery? Although both had practical reasons for their existence at a certain point in time, both looked different in Biblical times than the purely negative forms they have taken in modernity, and both were explicitly condoned by God in the Bible; there were issues that Christians ended up having with them, over time. Both have negative examples in Scriptural stories, the ideal situation given as examples of higher spiritual things are neither (marriage as between one man and one woman is a picture of Christ and the Church; Christ frees us from the bondage of sin), and both are seen to be negative for those in spiritual authority in the church age...and even in places in the Old Testament (elders to have one wife; the treatment of Onesiumus in Philemon; various pieces of wisdom and commands given to kings and priests). Both social practices were fraught with abuse towards people and became damaging to society.

Christians moved away from polygamy (Roman society was already more based in monogamy, but distant parts of the empire were not) early on. Christians actively advocated against slavery, eventually (because the form it had taken was clearly unscriptural, and higher ideals of freedom and all men being equal began to be in conflict with it). Christians then moved to remove alcohol from their subculture and general society because of various problems associated with it in Scripture, negative stories in the Bible about it, because of rules and laws restricting its use with spiritual leaders in the Bible (kings, priests and elders in churches), and lastly because of the way its use had changed in our society and the disappearance of it as a practical need.

My challenge to drinking Christians: if alcohol is not to be actively preached against (not drunkenness alone, but drinking alcohol in general) because the Bible does not explicity state it as a sin, should Christians also refuse to preach against polygamy if it arises (which it will) or speak against it in Christian circles; or, should they have sought the abolition of slavery or spoken against such a practice for Christians?

I think polygamy should not be practiced by Christians and society. I think slavery should not be practiced by Christians and society. I think drinking alcohol should not be practiced by Christians and society. But I think none of these are sin, inherently. Nonetheless, I do think none of these are things Christians should do--for Scriptural reasons.

And the Scriptural reasons against alcohol are much, much more stringent and numerous than they are for either polygamy or slavery. Its an easier argument to make against drinking alcohol than the other two practices.

Thanks for reading this lengthy post, and feel free to offer a challenge, I'd be interested if there are any good ones, because I haven't heard any in general conversation.

Is there anywhere in the Bible where polygamy or slavery are shown as GOOD things?
 
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I would argue that David's marriage to Abigail is seen as a good thing (that was polygamous) and that God was referring to that when He said said that He enacted that in 1 Samuel 12:8. I think the Leviticus passage definitely shows that the labor of these people would be a blessing to the Israelites and an inheritance.
 
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I don't see in your post an argument for preaching against alcohol consumption. Yes, it's true that polygamy and slavery are condoned in the Bible and that we have nevertheless decided that they are not valid options for Christians. So what? Why should that have any implications for alcohol? Lots of things are condoned in the Bible. Each issue has to be considered on its own.

This is a good comment. I would say, first of all, that what this argument does is that, when a Christian says that the church as a whole should not participate in drinking alcohol and lists whatever reasons they have for that, to say that drinking alcohol is not a sin, or that it takes place in the Bible is no longer a valid defense of it.

If that point is established, then I would argue that there are many reasons to not drink alcohol that are Scriptural in nature. I'll give two brief ones:

1. The role of Christians, in the New Testament, as kings and priests

Revelation 1:4-6 states that God has made us kings and priests, in a manner of speaking. We are His representatives on earth, we are given authority in His name, and we are to teach of His Righteousness and the Kingdom of God. I think Scriptures that prohibit, on pain of death, priests from drinking alcohol when they are performing their duties (Leviticus 10:8-11) and kings in general (Proverbs 31:4-5) are worth our taking seriously. Both of these passages express similar reasoning. Alcohol will inhibit their ability to perform those duties towards those they are serving on God's behalf. I think these passages are important to keep in mind for New Testament Christians, particularly in this day and age.

2. Our Society

One of the problems in comparing the ancient world to ours, is that there is more alcohol, it is stronger, and it is more easily acquired now. Alcohol has become very strong for a very low cost. An average modern American (for example) could purchase more alcohol than even some of the wealthiest of the ancient world, just because of how cheap mass production has made alcoholic beverages.

If you quickly review the CDC's information on alcohol, the level of problems in our society that come from it are readily apparent.
CDC - Alcohol and Public Health Home Page - Alcohol

In our society, much of the petty crime, murders, rape, child abuse, homelessness, and health issues are tied to alcohol. In terms of just sin, much of the adultery, fornication, profanity, fighting and contention, wastefulness and drunkeness all are often fueled by alcohol.

I think there are plenty of good reasons to try to remove alcohol from Christian circles, and indeed preach against it. I think it makes sense to try to restrict it in the general populace as well, but that is a different topic.

I think many of the reasons to remove slavery and polygamy also apply to alcohol. The main thing is that an argument of drinking not being a sin, or anybody engaging in that behavior in the Bible, is nullified in away by the OP.

Thanks! Good comment and question.
 
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Correct. If you would wish to be beaten as a slave,
you may treat others that way as well.
That's rare enough though.

If you wish to be forced to be part of a harem of men,
you may force others to be harem of women for you as well.

I think the issue here is that the Bible doesn't explicitly prohibit slavery because it had practical value at the time. If 30,000 men invade your country, and 10,000 killed, maybe 8,000 captured... what do you do with the captured? Release them? Kill them? Put together a massive pow camp and do prisoner exchanges? No. Slavery was the best and most humane option.

This is also true with debt collection and criminals. Bad credit? Debtor prison? Bankruptcy laws? Petty theft being put in jail?

No. Slavery made sense in many ways. For God to forbid it altogether would have been ridiculous. Alcohol also had practical reasons. It also inhabited good situations.

In this day and age though, things have changed. Both slavery and alcohol need to go away.
 
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