A Messianic Creed?

visionary said:

What is more telling is the person who thinks it is a good thing to have... I could easily see what similarity it would be to his seminary training.

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You do realize that seminaries are not nameless and faceless places where people get molded into the image of the anti-Christ, right?

Seminaries are places where you can think for yourself, and usually the staff are cleared by a board selected by people from all walks of Church life. Often, they are ecumenical, and have teachers from various denominations and positions. These days they are no different to a university in most respects.

Heber said:

... about my motives for the thread.

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I mostly read the discussions nowadays, but "about my motives for the thread."

A while back if I remember correctly you expressed a view about the idea of a common Messianic statement of faith. Which is a similiar topic in my opinion. I wish I could search up that post and see exactly what was said.

But the only conclusion I can say for certain is you write a lot of posts and I have reached my limit of reading through the search function.

ContraMundum said:

You do realize that seminaries are not nameless and faceless places where people get molded into the image of the anti-Christ, right?

Seminaries are places where you can think for yourself, and usually the staff are cleared by a board selected by people from all walks of Church life. Often, they are ecumenical, and have teachers from various denominations and positions. These days they are no different to a university in most respects.

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Still trained, just like a doctor is trained to do things a certain way.. A doctor in american is trained to look with suspicion on all herbs ... Something God has given us.

So is that the thread we can ask questions about standards and practices? That would be nice.
I have one. Of course, congs differ n this, probably, but how is communion ( lords table, bread-wine,etc, etc. whatever nomenclature we use) seen and practiced, if at all, in MJ congregations? How often, what are the limitations? Maybe it was discussed, but a quick review would be nice. Thanks in advance.
**
PS confidentially to Heber: Come on, brother. Back in the day they used to throw stones and beat up preachers, still do it in some places. A good shepherd overcomes hatred and misunderstanding and finds ways to put point across.Anybody can just leave... If you are here just to have fun, then dont be confrontational, but if you want to preach your views,get tougher skin. Otherwise you are sending mixed signals. Maybe take a small hiatus and then be back, ok? We DO love you!

BUT DO NOT EXPECT DIPLOMATIC IMMUNITY FROM HARSH CRITICISM. be you a pastor, rabbi, The Pope, etc... we judge people by the content of their posts not the regalia attached to his name, to rephrase Martin Luther King. If someone's views cant be scrutinized just because he is a pastor, then i myself will leave such forum...

yonah_mishael said:

I've just been made aware of this basic distinction among types of MJ congregations, some in which they teach "One Law" and some which teach "Two House." Even these differences would make it nigh impossible to formulate any kind of unifying creed. Do you any good references for learning about these things? I just started reading something regarding One Law from Tim Hegg.

Thanks.

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For one law you found the source, Tim Hegg. So this response by Russ Resnik the General Secretary of the UMJC should be considered as the counter to his claims.

The Relationship of Jew and Non-Jew in God?s Covenant
A response by Russ Resnik

This page also includes related articles regarding the one law movement written by Dan Juster and Russ Resnik.

Another person you may be interested in reading is Rabbi Derek Leman. He interacts quite intimately with FFOZ staff (Michael Boaz) and also teaches the distinction between Jew and Gentile within the MJ community. This blog post by him dives into the Acts 15:21 issue as it regards to Gentiles being called to learn and later observe Torah through the synagogues.

Quick Conversation on Acts 15:21

And finally, as mentioned before by Steve in regards to this topic, Rabbi Michael Schiffman of the Messianic Jewish Rabbinical Council (yes they have such a thing) has this to say about the topic of Jews and Gentiles in regards to Torah observance.

Messianic Judaism for All Nations

Beth Immanuel Sabbath Fellowship practices Messianic Judaism, but we are not primarily a Messianic Jewish community. The majority of community members and attendees are Gentile Christians who have taken hold of apostolic, Jewish expression in an attempt to reconcile their faith to the earliest form of Christianity. Our services are modeled after contemporary synagogue services, and our mode of worship can be described as Torah-observant.

We endeavor to restore the Torah of God to the all the disciples of Yeshua. At Beth Immanuel, we believe that God’s Law (Torah) is still the binding and unchanging standard for the Jewish people. Jesus taught His disciples to keep even the least of the commandments of the Torah (Matthew 5:19). According to the Apostles, Gentile believers are not held to the same Torah standard as Jewish believers, but the God-fearing Gentiles in fellowship with those Jewish believers naturally participated in the Sabbath, Synagogue, and Torah-life along with the Jewish community of faith (Acts 15:19-21).

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yonah_mishael said:

The Tim LaHaye brand of futurism seems to generally have taken firm grasp among Messianic Jewish congregations, or at least how they're represented here. Do you know much in terms of statistics and how many congregations view eschatology through the eyes of Scofield within MJism?

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I am not qualified to remark on the statistics. But I will tell you my experience. I have been involved if not mearly fellowshiped with a host of MJ congregations. And I have a good friend who visits all MJ congregations around the world that will listen to his testimony and his music. I myself have witnessed many if not all of the shades of MJ congregations. The 'Jewish' based Messianic congregations unanomously hold to the eschatological view of a 'restored Yisrael', after much tribulation. Messiah will return and fight our enemies himself, and defeat them. Then he will return all Yisrael to her land and rule forever. All Yisrael will be saved and filled with the Spirit of God to minister to the nations as originally purposed. Quite far from Scofields interpretation of scripture, no?

Here is my paraphrase of the scriptural proof texts involving this view of MJ eschatology.

The Restoration of Yisrael

yonah_mishael said:

The Tim LaHaye brand of futurism seems to generally have taken firm grasp among Messianic Jewish congregations, or at least how they're represented here.

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Yes, it's the baggage that comes with those who are fleeing the Church and all it's teachings. As identified above, this baggage comes from

The majority of community members and attendees are Gentile Christians who have taken hold of apostolic, Jewish expression in an attempt to reconcile their faith to the earliest form of Christianity

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Desert Rose said:

but how is communion ( lords table, bread-wine,etc, etc. whatever nomenclature we use) seen and practiced, if at all, in MJ congregations? How often, what are the limitations? Maybe it was discussed, but a quick review would be nice. Thanks in advance.

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From my experience it is practiced once a year, at Pesach. As this was when Yeshua enacted it. i.e. take this bread as my body, and this cup of wine as my blood...... This was done at Pesach so most MJ congregations i know observe it then. Not once a month or every time. This stems from the baggage I defined in my previous post.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I'm going now to read your post on the regathering.

I think the Messianic Judaism should conserve the Nicene Creed in order to maintain its fellowship with mainstream Christianity. What seems to me more important is to make a systematic study how Yeshua practiced the Torah, which commandments he has focused on ?
In Summary , I would define as follows the two main branches of Judaism:
Classical Judaism:
G-D Torah-Israel- Messiah
Presently, the practice of Judaism is centered on the Torah, the influence of the Messiah is small, since he is expected in the future.
Messianic Judaism:
The Lord Father- the Lord Yeshua-Torah-Israel-Messianic Gentiles
The Torah seen through the eyes of Yeshua.
For instance Yeshua Seder is the quintessence of the ceremonial laws. Once observed, it fulfill all the ceremonial commandments
The 9 blessings of the sermon of the mount can be interpreted as positive Mitzvot. The observance of these Mitzvot , together to the 10 Sinaic declarations summarized in two commandment of the Messiah 1. Love G-d with all heart, soul, and might and 2. Love your neighbor as one self are the quintessence of the Torah.
Once we have set up a Mishnah Torah Yeshua, one can derivatehow to observe the Mitzvoth, with the priorities on a Messianic point of view.

janwoG said:

I think the Messianic Judaism should conserve the Nicene Creed in order to maintain its fellowship with mainstream Christianity. What seems to me more important is to make a systematic study how Yeshua practiced the Torah, which commandments he has focused on ?
In Summary , I would define as follows the two main branches of Judaism:
Classical Judaism:
G-D Torah-Israel- Messiah
Presently, the practice of Judaism is centered on the Torah, the influence of the Messiah is small, since he is expected in the future.
Messianic Judaism:
The Lord Father- the Lord Yeshua-Torah-Israel-Messianic Gentiles
The Torah seen through the eyes of Yeshua.
For instance Yeshua Seder is the quintessence of the ceremonial laws. Once observed, it fulfill all the ceremonial commandments
The 9 blessings of the sermon of the mount can be interpreted as positive Mitzvot. The observance of these Mitzvot , together to the 10 Sinaic declarations summarized in two commandment of the Messiah 1. Love G-d with all heart, soul, and might and 2. Love your neighbor as one self are the quintessence of the Torah.
Once we have set up a Mishnah Torah Yeshua, one can derivatehow to observe the Mitzvoth, with the priorities on a Messianic point of view.

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In order to be in the Christian congregation section MJ believers had to accept the Nicene Creed, and those who did not are over in the unorthodox theology section. It was a heartbreaking event in this MJ community... all over a creed.

visionary said:

all over a creed.

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Not true, the Deity of Yeshua is the real issue. The ECF created the creed to deal with this issue.

The issue is the Deity of Yeshua, not the creed of the ECF. The disbelief that Yeshua is God in the flesh is at the root of the problem. Not the creed the RCC came up with to deal with it. Though I wouldn't go so far as to say 'persons'. But the creed reinforces the fact (issue for others) that Yeshua is 'God' the Son (of)......

Shimshon said:

Not true, the Deity of Yeshua is the real issue. The ECF created the creed to deal with this issue.

The issue is the Deity of Yeshua, not the creed of the ECF. The disbelief that Yeshua is God in the flesh is at the root of the problem. Not the creed the RCC came up with to deal with it. Though I wouldn't go so far as to say 'persons'. But the creed reenforces the fact (issue for others) that Yeshua is 'God' the Son (of)......

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And here I thought it was the three persons in one.. rather than God is one... the Shem

visionary said:

And here I thought it was the three persons in one.. rather than God is one... the Shem

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God is One. God is our Father, he also has a begotten Son who is the full expressed image of the invisible God, who also can impart His Spirit upon whomever and whatever He sees fit.

God the Father, God the Son, God the Spirit........ One God seen in a number of ways. And yes, we've seen the further detailed breakdown of God the Avenger, God the Healer, God ther Redeemer.....All the One God, but he manifests himself in three 'main' ways to us throughout time. As Father of creation, as Son (to whom all power and authority has been given) of creation as the Spirit of creation......

MOD HAT...

Thread closed as requested by the original poster.

Mark
Staff Supervisor.