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A Look at James 2

FaithLikeARock

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1My brothers, as believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ, don't show favoritism. 2Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in shabby clothes also comes in. 3If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, "Here's a good seat for you," but say to the poor man, "You stand there" or "Sit on the floor by my feet," 4have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts? 5Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him? 6But you have insulted the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court? 7Are they not the ones who are slandering the noble name of him to whom you belong?
8If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself,"[a] you are doing right. 9But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11For he who said, "Do not commit adultery,"[b] also said, "Do not murder."[c] If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.
12Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!
Faith and Deeds

14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.
19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[e] and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

I read this today and immediately thought of you guys, particularly of some of the more self righteous who insist they are right with God.

Debating here is a fun little hobby. But I don't care if you say you're Christian. Imagine if this were real life and you were not aloud to say or where anything that could give a hint at your faith. I could safely say that I would have trouble picking out the Christians. In fact I think some people who aren't Christian who seem more Christian and I think that I might not even appear Christian.

It doesn't matter what we believe. We have to show it. And it doesn't matter if we say we love. We have to actually love, without favoritism. I think verse 8 is the most important however. There is a lot of cherry picking here. "This sin is greater than this sin". No. All sins are equal in the eyes of God and all people who have sinned will face judgment. Therefore we have no right to judge others.
 

Verv

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I see where you are coming from but it is easy to pick out the Christians:

They advocate ideas against sexual license and other forms of such immorality. Of course, on other activities such as war or peace or other highly debatable terms it would certainly be difficult to pick out who is who but that just as much speaks to the heart of disagreement amongst people.
 
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cantata

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I see where you are coming from but it is easy to pick out the Christians:

They advocate ideas against sexual license and other forms of such immorality.

No they don't. There are plenty of Christians here who do nothing of the sort.
 
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Verv

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Cantata, I do not know how a Christian could believe in anything but sex within a monogamous situation. I can imagine how in some places and at some times official marriages did not necessarily occur and how perhaps it is acceptable for fiances to engage in sexual activities but the notion of OK'ing that is like OK'ing drunkenness, drug use, luxury, etc.

I know you know where I am coming from on this and I need no further explanation. You are a smart girl.
 
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cantata

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Cantata, I do not know how a Christian could believe in anything but sex within a monogamous situation. I can imagine how in some places and at some times official marriages did not necessarily occur and how perhaps it is acceptable for fiances to engage in sexual activities but the notion of OK'ing that is like OK'ing drunkenness, drug use, luxury, etc.

I know you know where I am coming from on this and I need no further explanation. You are a smart girl.

It really depends what you mean by "sexual licence".

There are plenty of Christians on Christian Forums who believe that premarital sex is acceptable. There are also plenty of Christians here who believe that non-heterosexual activity is acceptable. And then there are also plenty of Christians here who think that even though they wouldn't engage in certain activities, they are quite comfortable with other people doing so. So I'm still not sure I can go along with your claim that Christians are marked out by their advocating ideas against sexual licence.

Incidentally I also know Christians who do not condemn drug use.
 
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FaithLikeARock

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Some nontheists believe that too though.

Morals can't determine a persons religion. They just can't. As has been said by all of the apostles, "for all have sinned". Likewise I don't believe anyone can be perfectly in tune with the morals God has set out. So that's impossible.

The only way I can determine it is through attitude. There is a particular Christian love that we should all share, but we don't. Why is it I have to ask "Hey what do you think about sex" to find out if you're Christian?
 
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Verv

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Some nontheists believe that too though.

Morals can't determine a persons religion. They just can't. As has been said by all of the apostles, "for all have sinned". Likewise I don't believe anyone can be perfectly in tune with the morals God has set out. So that's impossible.

The only way I can determine it is through attitude. There is a particular Christian love that we should all share, but we don't. Why is it I have to ask "Hey what do you think about sex" to find out if you're Christian?

Because Christians have a moral code on sexuality that is far more stringent than others. Sex is just an act similar to what beasts do to non-theists (though of course non-theists can believe in exclusive love and monogamy though it perhaps doesn't make sense, really, as this is an entirely un-scientific and an argument not rooted in truth).

Other atheists can latch onto whatever deals they want as they are their own ultimate dictators of truth.

However, in atheism moral relativity has to take hold as there is no way of philosophically proving a moral code. Morality becomes like Chess:

Sure you can come up with solid arguments and ideas but if the other person opens up with nf3 or g3, you have to kind of change your game in order to win and the same ideas and same moves will not really function properly against it. You cannot play the same moves in a game of chess and have brilliance every time as in different contexts different things are played.
 
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GeratTzedek

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Actually James makes the point of saying we all fall short of keeping the law, and so all need to be humble, that to fail in any point of the law is to be a lawbreaker. He never says that all the laws are equal. To say this would be absurd. One only need read the Torah to see that different levels of punishments are meeted out for breaking different laws -- not every infraction got the death penalty, you know!
 
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HannahBanana

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Actually James makes the point of saying we all fall short of keeping the law, and so all need to be humble, that to fail in any point of the law is to be a lawbreaker. He never says that all the laws are equal. To say this would be absurd. One only need read the Torah to see that different levels of punishments are meeted out for breaking different laws -- not every infraction got the death penalty, you know!
So what sins are worse than others, then? (Other than blasphemy, since it's an "unforgivable sin" and homosexuality since it's an "abomination.")

EDIT: Also, why does God consider homosexuality to be an abomination? There isn't anything inherently bad or evil about it, so I don't see why it would even be a sin in the first place, much less an abominable sin.
 
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GeratTzedek

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cantata: the human heart has a side to it that is wicked an destructive. The desire of men to have sex is extraordinarily strong, and the ability to rationalize it part of human nature.

For me, this area has always where the rubber met the road, for myself and for others. Are we REALLY ready to obey him? Or is it just lip service? I'm not saying I'm angelic. But I HAVE learned. G-d disciplines those he loves. This is not a "I'm so rightous so do as I have always done" post, nor is it a hypocritical "Do as I say and not as I do" post. Rather, it is a "Do as I do, and not as I did" post. I won't compromise anymore. For a long time now, any man that tries to say premarital sex is compatible with following G-d has instantaneously become history.
 
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GeratTzedek

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So what sins are worse than others, then? (Other than blasphemy, since it's an "unforgivable sin" and homosexuality since it's an "abomination.")

EDIT: Also, why does God consider homosexuality to be an abomination? There isn't anything inherently bad or evil about it, so I don't see why it would even be a sin in the first place, much less an abominable sin.
If I kill my neighbor's goat, the penalty is only to reimburse him. If I kill my neighbor, the penalty is my life. It's not rocket science to figure out which sin is worse.

Homosexuality is an abomination because it subverts the natural order as G-d made it. Sex is for pleasure, bonding, and procreation -- a package deal. Homosexual sex flagrantly violates the purpose of sex for procreation. Having homosexual inclinations is not anyone's fault, but acting on them is a choice.

You say, "There isn't anything inherently bad or evil about it," so I take it you utterly reject scripture as G-d's word and your source for morals, since scritpure is quite clear.
 
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TheManeki

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If I kill my neighbor's goat, the penalty is only to reimburse him. If I kill my neighbor, the penalty is my life. It's not rocket science to figure out which sin is worse.

Except "abomination" in, for example, Lev 18:22 can also be translated as "taboo," which has a lot milder of a connotation. This fits in with scholarship indicating that the Levitical purity laws were a product of the Babylonian captivity, when the Jews developed laws to set themselves apart from the ruling culture so as to escape assimilation. (source)

Homosexuality is an abomination because it subverts the natural order as G-d made it. Sex is for pleasure, bonding, and procreation -- a package deal.

Homosexual sex flagrantly violates the purpose of sex for procreation. Having homosexual inclinations is not anyone's fault, but acting on them is a choice.

That must be why sterile people are forbidden to marry -- it subverts the procreation part of God's natural order. Whataminnit...there is no prohibition against sterile people marrying. Guess you're wrong about this assumption. Is that why you didn't bother giving any supporting evidence -- there was none to give?

You say, "There isn't anything inherently bad or evil about it," so I take it you utterly reject scripture as G-d's word and your source for morals, since scritpure is quite clear.

No, we just espouse an interpretation that, unlike your interpretation, better reflects what is observed in reality -- ie, there is nothing sinful about homosexual acts.
 
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HannahBanana

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If I kill my neighbor's goat, the penalty is only to reimburse him. If I kill my neighbor, the penalty is my life. It's not rocket science to figure out which sin is worse.

Homosexuality is an abomination because it subverts the natural order as G-d made it. Sex is for pleasure, bonding, and procreation -- a package deal. Homosexual sex flagrantly violates the purpose of sex for procreation. Having homosexual inclinations is not anyone's fault, but acting on them is a choice.

You say, "There isn't anything inherently bad or evil about it," so I take it you utterly reject scripture as G-d's word and your source for morals, since scritpure is quite clear.
TheManeki said it better than I ever could. (Thanks, by the way, TM!)
 
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FaithLikeARock

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So? As is said by James: "All laws were made by God". No matter what sin you commit, you've committed sin. There is a reason God did away with physical punishment. Because that's all it was. We can not judge God based on physical punishment.
 
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HannahBanana

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So? As is said by James: "All laws were made by God". No matter what sin you commit, you've committed sin. There is a reason God did away with physical punishment. Because that's all it was. We can not judge God based on physical punishment.
How does that reply answer TheManeki's post at all? Did you even read what he said in his post?
 
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HannahBanana

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That was a reply to GerTzedek, love. Don't assume. It makes you look like a Republican.
How was I supposed to know who you were replying to, though? Next time actually quote the post that you're replying to.
 
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