A little help please

[Loxly]

First off, I would like to say hello, since this is my first time posting

Anyway I have had a small problem with the question of Gods Omniscients, But only his knowlege of the Future and his knowlege of the choices we make.

I cannot see how he could be completely Omniscient without sacrificing free will, and predestination is Just out of the question for me.

Follow me if you can understand what I'm trying to explain because I am not the best at explaining myself. :o

First off I firmly believe in the "free will" of man. The ability for us as humans to make our own choices be it for love, hate, lust, greed, whatever, and that those choices define our future and no future is certain or can be set.

If god or any other being can see every aspect of the future, and then the future is then predestined, it is set, it cannot be changed.

To me, If you believe that god does know all aspects of the future but we are still given free will then that is a contradiction in itself, How can the Future be "known" but yet changeable? If our personal future changes with every choice we make then the future can NOT be know, because as soon as you knew one future another one would appear to replace it thus no future or set path could be known if there were free will.

Now because of this belief I have I can not accept the Idea of an Omniscient god, If God our father was Omniscient then he would have known Lucifer's decision to rebel, He would have known the Choice Adam and Eve would have Made and the fall of man, He would have known that the majority of Humanity would reject Him and his son, and he would have known he they would pay the price for that. Now Why make a

Being knowing that the majority of them would finally put in a place of eternal torment?? That doesn’t sound like the loving god that I know or believe in.

To go even Further with the concept of an Omniscient God, IF God knew before he ever made Lucifer what his choices would be and what evil he would unleash then did not god himself make Satan? Did God Make Evil??, Remember now God knows all Everything, the Alpha and the Omega right? He knew what he was making BEFORE he made Lucifer but yet made him anyway.

Most people when I give them this question revert to the old fashion (we are not meant to understand everything) or the alternate Illogical argument (The future can be know with free will being present.) And I have even heard people say that not everything that god does is not Logical because that makes no sense to me either, God wants us to understand his mind and how he thinks, that is what he gave us his Word if for.



If anyone could help me figure this out I would be more than Thankful, I have been thinking on this for a while but so far, I might just be missing something or just haven't had it explained to me correctly so..help.

For now have to believe that god in Omnipresent and knows the workings, nature and every aspect of the Universe But not the future. It must be left open for choice. Either God decides not to know it, by his divine power or Just can't. I don't know.

 

[Yekcidmij]

Here is the way C.S. Lewis put it in "Mere Christianity"(I will summerize it)

Our life comes to us moment by moment, one moment disappears before the next comes along. This is what time is like. Time is arranged into past, present and future. Many of us assume that God is moving through time, that He moves from past to future as we do. But from what I can gather, God is not in time. His life does not consist of flowing from one moment to another. If 1,000,000 are praying to Him right now, He doesnt have to listen to them all right now. Right now and every other moment for God is the present. He has all eternity to listen to prayer.

Here is a good example, not exact but maybe close. Pretend I am writing a book. I say, "Jeff put down his pencil; next moment came a knock at the door." For Jeff who is in my story, there is no interval bewtwen putting down his pencil and hearing a knock at the door. But i, Jeff's maker, do not live inside this story at all. Between the first and last half of that sentence, I might put the book down and just think about Jeff. I could think about Jeff as if he were the only character in the book, for as long as I wanted and the hours I spent thinking would not appear in Jeff's time (inside the story) at all.

In other words God is not traveling along the same time-stream of this universe any more than I was traveling along the imaginary time of my story. He has infinite time to spare for everyone. For God it is still 1909 and already 2005.

Maybe another example. If you can imagine time as a straight line along which we all travel then God is the page on which the line is drawn. We come to parts of the line one at a time. We leave point A before we get to point B and arrive at point B before leaving to get to point C. God, from above or outside or all around, contains the whole line, and sees it all.

The difference between us and God is that He is outside time and can see things we cannot. If this is true and God forsees our acts, it is hard to understand how we could be free not to do them. Bbut if God is outside our time-line, then what we call 'tomorrow' is just as visible to Him as what we call 'today'. All the days from the beginning to the end are 'now' for Him. He does not remember the thing you did yesterday; He sees you doing them; you have lost yesterday, He hasn't. He does not forsee what you are going to do tomorrow; He sees you doing them; tomorrow is not there for you, it is for Him though.

Just because God knows what you are going to do doesn't make your actions and less free. Maybe this helps, maybe I confused you.

Like I said at the top check out C.S. Lewis' book caled "Mere Christianity". Most of what I just said is in there. You can find it in a book store and the chapter on this subject is about 3 pages so its quick to read.

 

[Reformationist]

Today at 10:15 AM Loxly said this in Post #1

Now because of this belief I have I can not accept the Idea of an Omniscient god

Loxly, I think you're making a very big mistake by seeking to limit the sovereign omniscience of God because the idea of Him being omniscience is at odds with what you, as a finite being, believe.  God is omniscient.  God created people for His glory.  He is glorified through the destruction of some and the exultation of others.  He is God.  He picked out a people for His Son, regenerated them, and is conforming them to the image of His Son.

He knows the choices you will make before you make them.  In fact, His grace is the enabling factor in whether the choices that you freely make are in accord with His righteous Word.

I encourage you to question why you take issue with the idea of predestination rather than just dismissing the idea because it doesn't fit in with your present beliefs about God.  Predestination is completely biblical.  Many people have a problem with it mainly because they don't understand it.

Feel free to ask me any questions about it.

God bless

 

[frumanchu]

Today at 01:15 PM Loxly said this in Post #1

First off, I would like to say hello, since this is my first time posting. Anyway I have had a small problem with the question of Gods Omniscients, But only his knowlege of the Future and his knowlege of the choices we make. I cannot see how he could be completely Omniscient without sacrificing free will, and predestination is Just out of the question for me.

Well, first you have an issue to address right off the bat. Scripture clearly teaches some form of predestination. It is not an easy concept to grapple with, and as is clearly evident in this forum, many people of faith disagree over the mechanics and purpose of it. Nevertheless, it IS a Biblical fact which cannot be ignored.

First off I firmly believe in the "free will" of man. The ability for us as humans to make our own choices be it for love, hate, lust, greed, whatever, and that those choices define our future and no future is certain or can be set.

We do indeed make our own choices, according to our desires. We as finite beings within this universe have no means of observing the future. Nor do we have any means of viewing the past...we carry only memories of it and they are not comprehensive. But a God who exists outside the constraints of finity has an observational ability. This is clearly evident from His ability to foretell events through prophesy. Prophesy is nothing but lucky guesses unless God has the ability to see the future.

If god or any other being can see every aspect of the future, and then the future is then predestined, it is set, it cannot be changed. To me, If you believe that god does know all aspects of the future but we are still given free will then that is a contradiction in itself, How can the Future be "known" but yet changeable? If our personal future changes with every choice we make then the future can NOT be know, because as soon as you knew one future another one would appear to replace it thus no future or set path could be known if there were free will.

Your mistake is in mixing the attributes of God and man. We, with no perception or ability to view the future, could not possibly 'change' it because to change it you would need to know what you're changing it from. God, on the other hand, CAN see the future. The future is, by definition, that which WILL happen...NOT that which MIGHT happen. I can tell you right now without a single doubt in my mind that you will do what you will do, and I am absolutely right. You cannot possibly not do what you will do, or it wasn't what you were going to do As a finite being in this space and time, I have no way of knowing what that will be and can imagine numerous possibilities. That does not change my conviction that you will do what you will do!

Now because of this belief I have I can not accept the Idea of an Omniscient god, If God our father was Omniscient then he would have known Lucifer's decision to rebel, He would have known the Choice Adam and Eve would have Made and the fall of man, He would have known that the majority of Humanity would reject Him and his son, and he would have known he they would pay the price for that. Now Why make a Being knowing that the majority of them would finally put in a place of eternal torment?? That doesn’t sound like the loving god that I know or believe in.

And therein lies your problem. The loving God you know and/or believe in is not the God of the Bible. Now I'm not going to go so far as to say that you're not saved, only that the picture you have of God is wrong. You are conforming Him to what you think He should be instead of conforming your view to what He is revealed to be.

To go even Further with the concept of an Omniscient God, IF God knew before he ever made Lucifer what his choices would be and what evil he would unleash then did not god himself make Satan? Did God Make Evil??, Remember now God knows all Everything, the Alpha and the Omega right? He knew what he was making BEFORE he made Lucifer but yet made him anyway.

Most people when I give them this question revert to the old fashion (we are not meant to understand everything) or the alternate Illogical argument (The future can be know with free will being present.) And I have even heard people say that not everything that god does is not Logical because that makes no sense to me either, God wants us to understand his mind and how he thinks, that is what he gave us his Word if for.

His word reveals quite clearly that He is omniscient

For now have to believe that god in Omnipresent and knows the workings, nature and every aspect of the Universe But not the future. It must be left open for choice. Either God decides not to know it, by his divine power or Just can't. I don't know.

Well, I think the idea that He can't know the future is a bit rediculous given His repeated ability to predict it precisely. Choosing not to know is not much better as it still cannot be reconciled with much of Scripture.

As I said before, to believe God is not omniscient is to deny Scripture, and if we are to pick and choose what is fact and what is fiction therein, then what good is our faith?

 

[Loxly]

Thank both of you very much, unfortunately to me, logic would dictate that time, space and the universe are all on the same stream of events set forth along time ago, but no one understands the true law of the universe so many things are possible.
     Now if god our Father was outside this line / sphere, whatever it my be of our universe looking in and can see all things then it would still beg the question, Why did he create it if he knew the out come, and the suffering it would cause? 
The analogies that you gave me Yekcidmij were great ones and you did a great job explaining them and the only other answer that I could come up with in reply would be that.                         When god created the Universe, Him outside looking in he did not know when he made the universe, all the events that would unfold until he actually said "let there be light" Then when the universe came to being by his will he knew all, (like reading a story that he wrote himself) this would affirm his knowledge of the future But it would also state the his knowledge is limited to his own actions. Another example
Of this would be that God wrote the story of the universe But did not know the outcome until he was finished with the book,
This would help me understand the concept of our time and that of gods, But still again with god having limitations of no knowledge of events before creation.

I Understand that I reference Gods actions in time,even though for him Times probbaly only part of where he exists, but it is that only way I can seem to explain my point

  And Reformations, Thank you, I do understand that Predestination is something the bible gives reference to many times, which is what causes my dilemma. I might just have to chalk this up to one of those things I can not understand. But is very hard to do that when my logic tells me otherwise.

    But I thank you very Much and I will Pray about it even more.

 

[Reformationist]

Loxly, I too will pray that our Father reveals the truth of Himself to you.  I would like to point out one thing.  You mentioned that you don't take issue with God being omnipresent, right?  Omnipresence, by it's very definition, is not limited to a particular time.  So, for me it begs the qestion, how can God be present in all times and not know the future?

Of course, "knowing the future" isn't really the biblical concept of predestination.  God is a fortune teller.  He knows the future because it happens exactly as He has foreordained.

Additionally, you asked, "Why did he create it if he knew the out come, and the suffering it would cause?"  I would again like to encourage you to determine the righteousness of God's sovereign ordination of the events you process in a finite manner by the righteousness of God rather than judging the holiness of God based on what you see as suffering.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

frumanchu, I would like to tell you that you have an enlightening grasp on reformed theology and I have learned much from every post of your's I have read.

Thank you for sharing your wisdom.

God bless,

Don

 

[rnmomof7]

Today at 08:29 AM Loxly said this in Post #5

Thank both of you very much, unfortunately to me, logic would dictate that time, space and the universe are all on the same stream of events set forth along time ago, but no one understands the true law of the universe so many things are possible.
     Now if god our Father was outside this line / sphere, whatever it my be of our universe looking in and can see all things then it would still beg the question, Why did he create it if he knew the out come, and the suffering it would cause? 

God created man for His good pleasure. It pleases Him to watch His work IN us and in seeing us conformed to His image.

How long is a lifetime to God? When Adam sinned the entire earth fell under a curse. that was a curse of mans making . Man reaped what he sowed.

Why does God foreknowing all this still create? We know that He does all things for His glory. creation was glorifing, and the death of Jesus was glorifing , and the salvation of the elect out of this mass of humanity will give Him glory.

The analogies that you gave me Yekcidmij were great ones and you did a great job explaining them and the only other answer that I could come up with in reply would be that.                         When god created the Universe, Him outside looking in he did not know when he made the universe, all the events that would unfold until he actually said "let there be light" Then when the universe came to being by his will he knew all, (like reading a story that he wrote himself) this would affirm his knowledge of the future But it would also state the his knowledge is limited to his own actions. Another example
Of this would be that God wrote the story of the universe But did not know the outcome until he was finished with the book,

Is that what the bible says?

It says before the earth was ever formed God knew the outcome

1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

We were ordained of god before the creation of the world

Jhn 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

God KNOWS the end from the begining
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

He does not react to mens actions..He ordains them

Ecc 3:11 He hath made every [thing] beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

This would help me understand the concept of our time and that of gods, But still again with god having limitations of no knowledge of events before creation.

I Understand that I reference Gods actions in time,even though for him Times probbaly only part of where he exists, but it is that only way I can seem to explain my point

  And Reformations, Thank you, I do understand that Predestination is something the bible gives reference to many times, which is what causes my dilemma. I might just have to chalk this up to one of those things I can not understand. But is very hard to do that when my logic tells me otherwise.

    But I thank you very Much and I will Pray about it even more.

I think. perhaps you are seeking answers that it is not given to us to fully understand here. God has told us what He wants us to know and understand in the word.
It is good to pray continually..BUT that does not allow for being intellectually lazy.

We are told to have the mind of Christ ...He had the scriptures memorized..He studied His own word in the temple..

So as you pray study .!

 

[Reformationist]

I must tell the new reformed believers that have come to this MB that you have made these last couple of weeks my most enjoyable since I've been here, especially you, rnmomof7, Woody, and frumanchu.

I thank you all for the counsel you give and the wisdom you bring.

God bless,

Don

 

[rnmomof7]

Today at 11:42 AM Reformationist said this in Post #9

I must tell the new reformed believers that have come to this MB that you have made these last couple of weeks my most enjoyable since I've been here, especially you, rnmomof7, Woody, and frumanchu.

I thank you all for the counsel you give and the wisdom you bring.

God bless,

Don

Thanks Ref..I have to tell you that I have enjoyed your posts..you have a sweet and patient "spirit"..I am a blunt grandma:>) not toooooo patient.

God intends for His sons and daughters to encourage and teach..You do well!.

Speaking for my self I feel blessed to have found the forum ..

 

[Loxly]

Reformationist,

Omnipresence

\Om`ni*pres"ence\, n. [Cf. F. omnipr['e]sence.] Presence in every place at the same time; unbounded or universal presence;

I always thought it meant everywhere at one time, not everywhere, at all times. At least that's what my Webster's dictionary says. It might mean something different to different people.

 

frumanchu, You indeed seem to be biblically well learned I will surely consider what you have said. As well as all of you, As you can tell I need allot of help figuring some things out.

Remember though, I am not asking for you to bash what I am saying, I am asking for guidance I am not assuming that I am smarter or more well learned than anyone else here, (By any means !) so please do not take it that way.

Unfortunately I can't get over my Idea that I need things to make sense outside his word as well as inside it, if you understand what I am saying.



I will post more quesions about this later if none of you mind ? 

 

[Reformationist]

Today at 09:26 AM Loxly said this in Post #11

Remember though, I am not asking for you to bash what I am saying, I am asking for guidance I am not assuming that I am smarter or more well learned than anyone else here, (By any means !) so please do not take it that way.

On the contrary, I personally am blessed by your presence.  I'm glad you're here and you are not just here to tell us why we're wrong.  

Unfortunately I can't get over my Idea that I need things to make sense outside his word as well as inside it, if you understand what I am saying.

LOL!  I know the feeling.  Putting off the old man, which desires to control his surroundings at all times, is a difficult struggle.  We all have the same problems at times. 

I will post more quesions about this later if none of you mind ?

Looking forward to it!

God bless

 

[frumanchu]

Today at 12:26 PM Loxly said this in Post #11

frumanchu, You indeed seem to be biblically well learned I will surely consider what you have said. As well as all of you, As you can tell I need allot of help figuring some things out.

I will post more quesions about this later if none of you mind ? 

I appreciate the consideration and will certainly do my best to answer any other questions I can. Scripture is the ultimate authority on these matters and we'd all do best (we as well as yourself) to look to it as our sufficient source. There are times when we must trust in faith that which Scripture says that we don't quite understand. I say that not because the answer is not understandable to any, but because these matters are revealed to us over time. If everyone was imparted with comprehensive knowledge at the moment of faith, there would be little room for (and even less appreciation of) our sanctification. Each is given a measure of faith. Work yours out with great diligence