Do most Catholics believe Mary was sinless her whole life? Because I'm not sure that I can in good conscience support that postion with out sericous biblical evidence.
-
Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
-
CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
A little confused.
- Thread starter traviscatholic12
- Start date
- Status
Yes, it's a matter of Dogma.traviscatholic12 said:
1) Old Testament typology (a sort of foreshadowing, well that's actually the Immaculate Conception), nothing in the New Testament that says she sinned, and plenty of Father's of the Church have documented it. It's been a believe since First Century Christianity.
(before the day of the Bible)Michelle
Upvote
0
Rising_Suns
'Christ's desolate heart is in need of comfort'
traviscatholic12 said:
Travis, peace be with you,
Yes, Catholics believe Mary was sinless her whole life. But I'm curious, why do you need "serious biblical evidence" to support this belief? Catholics are not Sola Scripturists; we realize that Scripture is not the only deposit of fatih Christ left for us.
Remember, the Bible was created for the Church, not the other way around.
May the Lord give you His peace!
-Davide
Upvote
0
traviscatholic12 said:
Yes, Catholics believe the Blessed Virgin Mary was sinless her entire life, as do Eastern Orthodox.
We believe she was sinless not through her own power, but through God's grace.
The Angel Gabriel hailed Mary as "full of grace," an exceptional greeting, particularly for an angel.
There is no biblical account of Mary's ever having sinned.
Do you believe that after we get to heaven we too will no longer sin?
If God can do that for us by His grace, what was stopping Him from doing it for the Mother of His only-begotten Son?
Throughout the history of the Church, in her Apostolic Tradition, which includes her prayers, liturgy, and the writings of the Fathers, Mary is praised as "All Holy," "Immaculate," and "Pure."
We know these things about her because they were handed down in the Church from the Apostles.
How is it possible for a sinner to be "All Holy," "Immaculate," and "Pure"?
You won't find any other saint to whom such references are made.
Upvote
0
Alexis OCA
Secrecy and Accountability Cannot Co-Exist
From Pope Pius IX encyclical letter INEFFABILIS DEUS defining the Immaculate Conception (I think this is so beautiful):
This doctrine so filled the minds and souls of our ancestors in the faith that a singular and truly marvelous style of speech came into vogue among them. They have frequently addressed the Mother of God as immaculate, as immaculate in every respect; innocent, and verily most innocent; spotless, and entirely spotless; holy and removed from every stain of sin; all pure, all stainless, the very model of purity and innocence; more beautiful than beauty, more lovely than loveliness; more holy than holiness, singularly holy and most pure in soul and body; the one who surpassed all integrity and virginity; the only one who has become the dwelling place of all the graces of the most Holy Spirit. God alone excepted, Mary is more excellent than all, and by nature fair and beautiful, and more holy than the Cherubim and Seraphim. To praise her all the tongues of heaven and earth do not suffice.
Coming to terms with that is not a question of rational knowledge. That is revealed knowledge of the supernatural and I thank God for the faith to believe it.
This doctrine so filled the minds and souls of our ancestors in the faith that a singular and truly marvelous style of speech came into vogue among them. They have frequently addressed the Mother of God as immaculate, as immaculate in every respect; innocent, and verily most innocent; spotless, and entirely spotless; holy and removed from every stain of sin; all pure, all stainless, the very model of purity and innocence; more beautiful than beauty, more lovely than loveliness; more holy than holiness, singularly holy and most pure in soul and body; the one who surpassed all integrity and virginity; the only one who has become the dwelling place of all the graces of the most Holy Spirit. God alone excepted, Mary is more excellent than all, and by nature fair and beautiful, and more holy than the Cherubim and Seraphim. To praise her all the tongues of heaven and earth do not suffice.
Coming to terms with that is not a question of rational knowledge. That is revealed knowledge of the supernatural and I thank God for the faith to believe it.
Upvote
0
Filia Mariae
Senior Contributor
Travis,
What in particular bothers you about this dogma? It will be easier for us to answer your questions if we know why you're troubled by it.
What in particular bothers you about this dogma? It will be easier for us to answer your questions if we know why you're troubled by it.
Upvote
0
What about when the Bible says, " All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Doesn't make more sense that Mary was a normal sinner, and Jesus was still able to be a perfect sinless person? I'm sorry if I'm offending you, but this is something that somewhat bugs me about the Catholic faith. And if I plan to enter it, I just want to clear everything up.
Upvote
0
Travis,
If I am a prisoner in prison it's because I've commited a crime, and I can write a letter to people I know outside of prison or even to my fellow prisoners and lament to them that "all" of us in this prison are guilty, we are "all" criminals everyone of us.
Now this would be a true statement in the context with which I wrote it, however I was excepting the prison staff from this declaration without mentioning them. Such as the warden, the gaurds, the cooks and secretaries..etc..
I could write a letter to you, a fellow Catholic and lament that we are "all" such sinners, "all" of us have sinned. But you as a fellow Catholic most certainly know I am excepting the Holy Virgin without even mentioning her when speaking within this context.
And what about Christ in this statment ? Surely He was 'excepted' in this statement of "All have sinned"... you see what I mean?
The Term "All" comes from the Greek word "Pas"..
J.M.J.
plainswolf
If I am a prisoner in prison it's because I've commited a crime, and I can write a letter to people I know outside of prison or even to my fellow prisoners and lament to them that "all" of us in this prison are guilty, we are "all" criminals everyone of us.
Now this would be a true statement in the context with which I wrote it, however I was excepting the prison staff from this declaration without mentioning them. Such as the warden, the gaurds, the cooks and secretaries..etc..
I could write a letter to you, a fellow Catholic and lament that we are "all" such sinners, "all" of us have sinned. But you as a fellow Catholic most certainly know I am excepting the Holy Virgin without even mentioning her when speaking within this context.
And what about Christ in this statment ? Surely He was 'excepted' in this statement of "All have sinned"... you see what I mean?
The Term "All" comes from the Greek word "Pas"..
J.M.J.
plainswolf
Upvote
0
No, but Jesus was God. Mary was completly human. It seems as though you are putting Mary on the same pedestal as Jesus. Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm sorry for my ignorance here. Isn't by claiming Jesus and Mary were both sinless, isn't that making them even? Once again, correct me if I'm wrong.DreamTheater said:
Upvote
0
traviscatholic12 said:
Jesus was 100% human and 100% divine. At the same time.
Mary can compared to Jesus because they were both fully human. You can be compared to Jesus because you too are human.
Travis, if you believe that Jesus was fully human, than you cannot take that Bible passage as literally. That passage was intended for a certain audience, an audience full of sinners. All of us are sinners, but clearly not every human being that walked the face of the earth has sinned, because Jesus was human.
Upvote
0
Travis, go to this link and read the article called "Graceful bridge", this is an outstanding essay on how Mary was sinless, and why she was prevented from sin by God. http://www.catholic-legate.com/articles/icbridge.html
OUSTANDING article!
J.M.J.
plainswolf
OUSTANDING article!
J.M.J.
plainswolf
Upvote
0
Benedicta00
Well-Known Member
Yes, Mary was created with out sin and was sinless her whole life. The Immaculate Conception is what the whole Church was built on.traviscatholic12 said:
Before you flip out, listen. In the beginning with Eve where this whole thing began, it was Satans attack on the woman; this is where the story of our salvation begins. Then came the promise I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your seed and hers. This woman is the vessel that brings to us His promise of salvation. That vessel is the prototype of the Church, the Immaculate Conception.
Think of it like this, we often hear it being said that Mary was the first Christian because she was the first to accept Christ, well to Protestants who is the Church? The believers. Mary being the first believer is the prototype of the Church. The Church we know is Holy, with out spot or blemish, it is Christs bride, he sanctifies her and the gates will never prevail against her. This is what the Immaculate Conception is. Satan can not prevail in His attack against her, she is holy, she is with out spot or blemish.
Mary- the very first Christian who accepted Christ was that first draft of the Church (let it be done to me according to your word) then the savior was with us. So we have a savior, and a believer who is sanctifed by Christ and who Stan can not prevail against. If she werent sinless, we would not have this prefigure of the Church that is to come.
The Immaculate Conception isnt about glorifying a creation and not the creator or glorifying Mary, it is the blueprint of the Church that is to come. This is also why Mary is the mother of the Church, the visable and invisable, mystical body of Christ, because she also is the Church.
Upvote
0
Benedicta00
Well-Known Member
They are not even because one is sinless by nature, the other by grace. Jesus is Mary's savior, she is not His.traviscatholic12 said:
Upvote
0
Xpycoctomos
Well-Known Member
Travis: while this proves nothing and certainly cannot be offered as evidence, it is interesting to note that even Luther found the idea of questioning the sinlessness of Mary tantamount to blasphemy... and he was the one that brought Sola Scriptura from a mere idea floating around in the minds of some western monks and priests to the forefront of the popular Christian mind.
Just some thoughts,
John
Just some thoughts,
John
Upvote
0
InnerPhyre
Well-Known Member
traviscatholic12 said:
Jesus was also completely human. Jesus wasn't part human and part God. He was completely human and completely God. They aren't even, because Mary is not God.
Upvote
0
Benedicta00
Well-Known Member
Jesus was also human, does all include Him? No, this verse is so misunderstood and misused. It means Adam fell short sinned so all mankind will suffer from his sin, Mary is part of mankind who fell but she was preserved before the stain could reach her. She was saved before hand, we are saved after.traviscatholic12 said:
Think of it like this. You can fall in the mud and I can save you from it by pulling you out, or I can save you by preventing you from falling in there in the first place. Paul tells us that all of mankind is in need of being saved from falling in the mud. Mary is a part of that, she is not excluded. God saves her from the mud like he saves us, just in different ways but both through Christ.
Upvote
0
The link for the article I posted was written by a Protestant who converted to Catholicism and he appeals to the Protestant way of thinking, and the common beliefs sharded to explain the Immaculate Conception in a very profound way.
J.M.J.
plainswolf
J.M.J.
plainswolf
Upvote
0
- Status
Similar threads
