A friendly queston on sin

[GorrionGris]

I was about to post this question on the Theology forums when I changed my mind, fearing that yet another senseless debate would erupt. As that is the least thing I want I hope you can tell me

So this is my question. Are you free from sin when you are saved? If not then where's the new nature of the Christian? If you are free from sin then why do I still see every person I know commiting sin, even if just from time to time?

 

[UMP]

I was about to post this question on the Theology forums when I changed my mind, fearing that yet another senseless debate would erupt. As that is the least thing I want I hope you can tell me

So this is my question. Are you free from sin when you are saved? If not then where's the new nature of the Christian? If you are free from sin then why do I still see every person I know commiting sin, even if just from time to time?

1 John 3:
[9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 John 1:
[8] If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Here you have a verse stating that whosoever is born of God DOES NOT commit sin. Another which states that if we say we have no sin, we lie. Is there a contradiction? NO. For we are truly two natures in one body. There is the old carnal nature which only wants to sin, in which we are daily trying to put to death and then there is the new nature born of God that cannot sin. Only until we pass into eternity with our Lord will this old nature be erradicated.
Paul also describes our condition:

Romans 7:
[15] For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
[16] If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
[17] Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
[18] For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
[19] For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
[20] Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
[21] I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
[22] For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
[23] But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
[24] O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
[25] I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

 

[GorrionGris]

1 John 3:
[9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 John 1:
[8] If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Here you have a verse stating that whosoever is born of God DOES NOT commit sin. Another which states that if we say we have no sin, we lie. Is there a contradiction? NO. For we are truly two natures in one body. There is the old carnal nature which only wants to sin, in which we are daily trying to put to death and then there is the new nature born of God that cannot sin. Only until we pass into eternity with our Lord will this old nature be erradicated.
Paul also describes our condition:

Romans 7:
[15] For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
[16] If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
[17] Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
[18] For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
[19] For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
[20] Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
[21] I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
[22] For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
[23] But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
[24] O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
[25] I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Thanks for clarifying...

 

[mlqurgw]

I was about to post this question on the Theology forums when I changed my mind, fearing that yet another senseless debate would erupt. As that is the least thing I want I hope you can tell me

So this is my question. Are you free from sin when you are saved? If not then where's the new nature of the Christian? If you are free from sin then why do I still see every person I know commiting sin, even if just from time to time?

I notice you have a Catholic icon so I will begin by stating as much as I can with my limited knowledge of Catholic teaching on the subject. I believe it is the teaching of the Catholics that you can still sin but by partaking of the Sacraments you can live a holy and sanctified life. They divide sin into mortal and venial. Mortal sin deprives the person of the grace of God and brings death and damnation to the soul. Venial sin is sin that is a slight offense and is less important and only keeps the sinner from the love of God in his heart and less worthy of His help.
In contrast, I am convinced that the Scriptures teach that sin of any kind is mortal. When we are born of God and become new creatures in Christ the old man of flesh is still alive. We who believe are now a people of 2 natures: one which is natural and cannot do anything that isn't sin, called the flesh and one that is spiritual and cannot sin because it is Christ in us. We wage a daily battle with ourselves. Paul speaks of it in Romans 7 and Gal. 5.
Are we free from sin when we are saved? Yes we are in that Christ has put away our sin by the sacrifice of Himself. John writes in 1John 3:5 that in Him is no sin. That isn't talking about the sinlessness of Christ it is talking about our standing in Him. Again in 1John 4:17 John tells us that as He is so are we in this world.
While that old man the flesh is still with us and always seeks to destroy our life in Christ it does not rule us any longer. It will plague us until we lay it down in physical death.
I hope I haven't confused you too much.

 

[GorrionGris]

So it's like sins after salvation don't count???

 

[mlqurgw]

So it's like sins after salvation don't count???

Did Christ put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself or not? Did He purge our sin or not? That is the language of Scripture. You will find it in the book of Hebrews. Our sin after we have been born again is no more counted against us than the sin we committed before. We will suffer the consequences of it in this physical existence but God can no longer hold it against us, Christ has put it away. If I, in a moment of weakness, steal from someone I will be put in jail. But at the same time, if I am truly His, that sin will not keep me from eternal bliss in Heaven's glory. Man can and will hold it against me but not God. If I am truly His and Christ has put away my sin He will use even that sin for my good.
Now if I continually run into rebellious sin and do so because I believe that Christ has put away my sin I have no real understanding of the work of Christ nor can I trust that He put away my sin. Paul speaks to that very issue in Rom. 6.

 

[bradfordl]

So it's like sins after salvation don't count???

Oh, they count most dearly. They are accounted for in the cross our Saviour bled and died upon. A most dreadful and incomprehensible price was paid there, and any attempt by foolish men to diminish its value shall justly draw down the wrath of His Father, Who loves Him above all others.

 

[Imblessed]

Oh, they count most dearly. They are accounted for in the cross our Saviour bled and died upon. A most dreadful and incomprehensible price was paid there, and any attempt by foolish men to diminish its value shall justly draw down the wrath of His Father, Who loves Him above all others.

beautifully put.

 

[Imblessed]

I believe that we will 'sin' right up until the day we die, because we are constantly battling the man of flesh--but our sins are not counted against us on the last day. But, as far as our sin here in this life--whether it is spiritually or physically--we will suffer the consequences...

Did Christ put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself or not? Did He purge our sin or not? That is the language of Scripture. You will find it in the book of Hebrews. Our sin after we have been born again is no more counted against us than the sin we committed before. We will suffer the consequences of it in this physical existence but God can no longer hold it against us, Christ has put it away. If I, in a moment of weakness, steal from someone I will be put in jail. But at the same time, if I am truly His, that sin will not keep me from eternal bliss in Heaven's glory. Man can and will hold it against me but not God. If I am truly His and Christ has put away my sin He will use even that sin for my good.

Very well put!!!

Now if I continually run into rebellious sin and do so because I believe that Christ has put away my sin I have no real understanding of the work of Christ nor can I trust that He put away my sin. Paul speaks to that very issue in Rom. 6.

And that is where we must be very careful in our walk with God. We must always remember that even though Jesus has put away our sins, we still have an obligation to daily fight that 'old man' and do our best not to sin.

 

[Paleoconservatarian]

So this is my question. Are you free from sin when you are saved? If not then where's the new nature of the Christian? If you are free from sin then why do I still see every person I know commiting sin, even if just from time to time?

Well, this shows one of the problems with using the "get saved" terminology. Salvation isn't a one-time event in the Christian's past. It's an ongoing process, made certain by the accomplished work of Christ in history. While it is true that when we are justified, we are freed from sin in the sense that we are no longer bound to serve it as slaves, and are no longer subject to God's wrath for sin (for Christ has fully paid the entire debt of all those who believe), we have not yet been freed from the presence of sin. That is not to say that our glorification and sinlessness in the age to come is an uncertain thing. It is so certain that we can call it our own, and all who are being saved have God's guarantee that we shall one day be like Christ in sinlessness. But certainly we are still sinners, and we do have two natures (although our being a new man does not in any way earn us anything, nor does it preserve for us our position in the kingdom. It is solely by Christ's righteousness outside of ourselves that we are accepted before God, not only when we come to faith, but afterward as well). Not only are we still sinners, but we sin all the time. It is not that we sin on occasion, but if we honestly examine ourselves, there is a sense in which we really aren't any better off than we started, for we still don't for a moment love God with all our hearts, souls, minds, and strength and our neighbors as ourselves. I like how the Heidelberg catechism states it:

Question 114. But can those who are converted to God perfectly keep these commandments?
Answer: No: but even the holiest men, while in this life, have only a small beginning of this obedience; yet so, that with a sincere resolution they begin to live, not only according to some, but all the commandments of God.

Question 115. Why will God then have the ten commandments so strictly preached, since no man in this life can keep them?
Answer: First, that all our lifetime we may learn more and more to know (a) our sinful nature, and thus become the more earnest in seeking the remission of sin, and righteousness in Christ; (b) likewise, that we constantly endeavour and pray to God for the grace of the Holy Spirit, that we may become more and more conformable to the image of God, till we arrive at the perfection proposed to us, in a life to come.

 

[GodsElect]

I was about to post this question on the Theology forums when I changed my mind, fearing that yet another senseless debate would erupt. As that is the least thing I want I hope you can tell me

So this is my question. Are you free from sin when you are saved? If not then where's the new nature of the Christian? If you are free from sin then why do I still see every person I know commiting sin, even if just from time to time?

Yes, you are free from your sin, but when one is freed from their sin, that makes them free from the PENALTIES DUE TO THEM for their sins by the Grace of God through faith alone in Christ Jesus.

When people hear that they are free from their sin that does not mean that they no longer sin, because as you said, they still live a life of sin. This is why we must live according to the grace that has been given us and bear fruits worthy of repentance, DAILY.

Also, it is not because one repents TO BE saved, It's because one IS SAVED and knows what their sin is that they will bear the fruits of repentance and faith alone that Christ FULFILLED ALL OBEDIENCE and RIGHTEOUSNESS that you or I CANNOT fulfill.

This is what faith in Christ truly is. He did it ALL for wicked sinners like you and me and by His death on calvary's cross. He paid the price IN FULL leaving nothing less for you or I to do to be saved but have faith in the One who paid that price for your sins and lived a PERFECTLY obedient life to the Father. So, now that one is freed from the penalties that were due to them for sin, now, should willingly want to live a life of obedience and repentance and turn from their filthy ways.

Yes, we continually struggle with indwelling sin and acts of sin, but this is what shows us just how rotten we still are and should come to the Lord over and over in asking for forgiveness. We fall so very short of the glory of God and do not deserve heaven, and this should cause us to pray without ceasing, it is because of your sin that put our beloved Savior on the cursed tree!

So, yes we are free, but only free from the penalties due us for our sin because of Christ alone. If you were free from SINNING, that would make you Christ.

 

[GorrionGris]

Thanks. I think my real angst is not so much about salvation, but how poor and rotten I am before God, in other words how does one keep walking in the path of sanctification?

 

[Libre]

Thanks. I think my real angst is not so much about salvation, but how poor and rotten I am before God, in other words how does one keep walking in the path of sanctification?

While charismatic, I lean toward reformed doctrine, except for the poor miserable worm part. After we are called and saved, we are His. That is what Paul is talking about. Thank God for His son Jesus Christ - who has delivered us from sin and death. We no longer have sin imputed to us, but righteousness instead.

Go to the following Calvinist/Reformed site, click on Current Downloads, scroll down that page to Law vs Grace. It's a series of 9 sermons, and they are the best I've heard in 20 yrs.

http://www.salvationbygrace.org/default.aspx?ct=sub/listen

Libre

 

[UMP]

Thanks. I think my real angst is not so much about salvation, but how poor and rotten I am before God, in other words how does one keep walking in the path of sanctification?

You think you're poor and rotten before God? So do I. Sounds like good news to me !! Why?
Because that's who Christ came to save:

Mark 2:
[17] When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

 

[edie19]

I believe that we will 'sin' right up until the day we die, because we are constantly battling the man of flesh--but our sins are not counted against us on the last day. But, as far as our sin here in this life--whether it is spiritually or physically--we will suffer the consequences...

And that is where we must be very careful in our walk with God. We must always remember that even though Jesus has put away our sins, we still have an obligation to daily fight that 'old man' and do our best not to sin.

Excellent - can't disagree with anything you've said.

 

[Imblessed]

Excellent - can't disagree with anything you've said.

why thank you. That really means a lot to me!