• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
  • We hope the site problems here are now solved, however, if you still have any issues, please start a ticket in Contact Us

  • The rule regarding AI content has been updated. The rule now rules as follows:

    Be sure to credit AI when copying and pasting AI sources. Link to the site of the AI search, just like linking to an article.

A four part theory

pshun2404

Newbie
Jan 26, 2012
6,027
620
✟93,900.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Part I

Hosea 7:8a - Ephraim, he hath mixed himself among the people (the goyim)…

Hosea 8:8 - Israel is swallowed up: now shall they be among the Gentiles as a vessel wherein is no pleasure.

Regarding Ephraim’s kingdom, the total campaign of the Assyrian onslaught occurred in phases. Prior to the beginning of, and at the end of each subsequent campaign, the Ephraimites were again prophetically warned of their inevitable future, called to repentance, and given the opportunity for victory over their enemies and restoration of their fellowship with and the protection of YHVH, LORD of Hosts, but they would not, until finally God let them go their own way entirely.

In Isaiah 49, they are called Jacob and the scattered sheep (for Judah as of yet had not been carried away), where regarding His unique Servant, Messiah, the light unto the Gentiles, it is said that He “will bring Jacob back“! The attacks continued unsuccessfully against the Kingdom of Judah but were very successful against the House of Israel. Sennicherib invaded around 690 B.C.! King Assur-Banipal (during the time of Nahum) in Assyrian records we have unearthed, boasts of impaling the heads of his enemies on poles, and flaying the skins from their leaders while still alive, and hanging them on poles around the besieged cities for all to see. The incredible thing is that, less than a century earlier than Tiglath-Pileser’s brutal attacks, in the time of King Adad-Nirari King of Ninevah, YHVH extended grace, through the prophet Jonah, to the people of the Assyrian Capital (a city-kingdom, established by Nimrod). But only a couple of generations after, the wise King having died, the Assyrian’s godless hatred of the children of YHVH rekindled, and once again they began their onslaught of terrorist oppression.

Assyria’s Kingdom, which included much of northern Israel, was later conquered by Nebuchadnezzar, King of Babylon, a second Nimrodian outgrowth, around 606 B.C. (the time of Daniel’s captivity)! By around 586 B.C. the Kingdom of Judah and Benjamin, were likewise utterly vanquished, and it’s kingdom and peoples were prophetically disposed of and carried off (the time of Jeremiah and Ezekiel).

Already by this time (almost a century later), many of the House of Israel, had all but forgotten their heritage, and their God. Many of them were already free citizens of their new respective nations. Some were merchants, butchers, millers, fishermen, etc.! They were settled in, and intermingled with the goy (gentiles), and bore forth the children of mixed marriages, void of significant remembrance of the traditions of the forefathers. 70 years later, the captivity of Judah was more or less annulled throughout the known world by Cyrus and the Medo-Persian uprising. Many of the acculturated offspring had all but lost their heritage and became utterly sown in among the goy, just as the word had predicted.

But how could such a terrible thing have happened? They had such an illustrious beginning. Joshua, who was an Ephraimite, and Caleb, a son of Judah’s line, were chosen by God, to be as one stick, to lead the people of God to victory into the promise land. In addition, the Tabernacle, the first official house of worship, where the Shekinah of God would come and dwell with His people, was first placed in Shiloh, over which the children of Ephraim, the son of Joseph, ruled. But alas, even then there was worship in the high places, yes even when God’s Glory tabernacled among them many went whoring after false gods. From among Ephraim’s control over the tabernacle made with hands, the Glory departed, and to Ephraim, the Glory of God has returned, in His Tabernacle not made with hands, that is “in Messiah” to whom Ephraim has flocked. Likewise just as the captivity began in Galilee, God saw it fit that from Galilee should come forth He who would ultimately be their liberation and reconciliation.

Many of those who were intermingled tried to return to the land as well. Some were accepted, casting off their foreign spouses, and a great number of the mixed multitude were rejected. Most of the Ephraimites that remained in the outermost regions either chose not to return at all, or else were so acculturated, that they no longer recognized themselves as being Israelite, but rather identified themselves with the nations in which they and their parents had been raised. These members of the ten northern tribes that did not return, were as lost sheep, both as regarding their faith, and regarding their respective genealogies, having been mixed in among the gentile nations (the goyim), and having since produced the fruit of their own undoing, simply by the Lord’s leaving them to their own devises. Indeed they had been “broken off“ from the natural olive tree.

Paul
 

pshun2404

Newbie
Jan 26, 2012
6,027
620
✟93,900.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Part II

In the books of the Prophets, there are many passages which deal with the phenomena, that much of Ephraim would become broken off and lost (both spiritually and geo-physically), and likewise about their inevitable recovery from among the various gentile nations sometime after the coming of this first of two appearances of Messiah, in the latter days, and this eschatological process finally would reach its ultimate fulfillment just before His second advent, when He comes on the clouds like as a Son of Man, the veritable scion of David.

We find many of these promises within the insights provided from predominately 6 chapters, and these are: Jeremiah 30; 31, and 50; and also in Isaiah 11 and 49; and then finally from the New Covenant writings of Paul (Rabbu Sha’ul) in Roman’s 11! A summation of the points found therein as discerned by this author are as follows:

a) Clearly Israel were already as “scattered sheep“ (Jeremiah 50:17), and the other two tribes were about to follow (as Jeremiah was predicting). All of Israel proper eventually became “lost sheep“ (Jeremiah 50:6). They had long been lost spiritually but soon they would all be so physically.

b) Yet the Lord promised that the Day would come when Jacob (Israel) would be brought back (Isaiah 49), and thus lost Ephraim as well would eventually realize who they were/are, and seek to worship Him, and be brought home as well (on the shoulders of the Gentiles), and He would be their God, they would be called “the sons of the living God“, and He would remember their sins no more (Jeremiah 30-31:6).

c) He would accomplish this by raising up a Shepherd King, called elsewhere “the Branch“ (the natzar or tsemech), who is Messiah (first as Ha’Moschiach, ben Joseph, and later as Ha’Moschiach, ben David, the one likened unto a son of man “coming in the clouds“), whom they will eventually realize is the one who was pierced (Zechariah 12:10), and the whole earth shall mourn because of Him. It would likewise be by and through whom the gentiles would be their preservation, and carry them back in their arms. It is written that, the Gentiles will bear Israel on their shoulders (Isaiah 49:22)! Yet, it is the Lord Himself who will do it (Jeremiah 31:10; 33:14-16).

d) They would have a New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:33), which was to be an eternal Covenant of Peace (the Shalom of God, Shalom with God, and Shalom with one another, and with all men as much as is possible). This is a Covenant where the Law would be written in their hearts, and they would know YHVH was their Lord (Jeremiah 30, 31). It is not a continuation or renewal of the Covenant from Sinai, which they broke so many times. It would be a New Covenant. In the end, the very nations that spoiled them would be spoiled, and the nations that accosted them would be accosted by the Lord Himself, and the nations that caused their captivity would in fact be made captives.

e) It is written that they would return to the land never again to be removed, in a “time of unwalled cities“ (such as the one we now live in), just before the “time of Jacob’s trouble“*, throughout it, and even after the risen Messiah returns figuratively described as David, their King, whom the Lord Himself would raise up. They will be in the land forever, in that Day! That is, for as long as there is an ever, for even time will eventually be thrown into the lake of fire with hell and death after the 1,000 year reign, whether this is literal or figurative 1,000 years as we understand it!

f) We know this final return did not occur in the post-exhilic return of Nehemiah and Ezra, for they were again dispersed by Titus, neither being ultimately fulfilled in the ending of the great dispersion (1948). Though this is a significant event it is a process through-out the Latter Days of the Shepherd/Servant, in which we now are, and just prior to His triumphant return on the clouds, at the end of the age, as they will come out of that time of “Jacob’s trouble“, which we followers of Y’shua call the Tribulation Period!

g) Many of these “scattered sheep“, i.e., the “lost sheep“ of the House of Israel, are presently part of the gentile nations, having been sown in among them by the LORD Himself (Jeremiah 31:27), and are even within the denominational Churches in great numbers. Many are still as yet unaware of their heritage as Israelites. Many are sheep who are only hearing His voice now, and I believe now that they are beginning to be called out to an awakening in our very time! But they have to hear the gospel. Many still are genealogically Hebrews, and know it, and will accept Jesus as their King Messiah if presented with the option. As for the House of Judah, they have to know that accepting Y’shua does not mean they must cease being Jewish. In fact if Jesus is who He said He was, then their coming is the fulfillment of their purpose as Jews. Now these are not being “called out“ as a separate or new Church, God forbid, but as they are, part of the true living church, spiritual Israel, “Jew and Gentile one in the Messiah“.

h) We gentiles who have been grafted into the vine of God, heirs of the promises by faith, will be instrumental in, and are responsible for, waking up the faithful of Ephraim and Judah, to the redemptive plan of God, the truthfulness and reliability of His word, and to the true identity of their suffering Messiah, called ben-Joseph by the Rabbis of old. He of whom it is said would be “a light unto the Gentiles”, “the Messenger of the Covenant”, and the bearer of the “good tidings“ (the Gospel), who would also be the Servant sent to bring “Jacob back“ (Isaiah 49:5,6), and in that Day (Zechariah 12:10), they shall all become “one stick“ (Judah and Joseph, the Lion and the Lamb, which includes the Gentiles of faith), one (echad) in Messiah.
 
Upvote 0

pshun2404

Newbie
Jan 26, 2012
6,027
620
✟93,900.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Part III

The true Church of God is a new creation. They are a new people after the order of the last Adam, neither are they anymore Jew or Gentile. It is a new people, formerly not called a people at all. They are of the second Adam, being no more Jew or Gentile spiritually speaking, but rather one entirely new people that includes:

a) the faithful natural branches of the Olive tree (Judah),

b) those that were “broken off“ (Ephraim), and

c) the wild branches which have been grafted in (gentiles of faith),

…all of whom are “one in Messiah“ (Ezekiel 37:16-27/ Roman’s 11). He alone is the Sanctuary of God (The true Temple raised up in three days, who is the Glory of the Father, as revealed by the Apostle John and elsewhere, tabernacling among us, i.e., the fullness of the Godhead bodily) in whom we, and according to Saint Paul, “all Israel“ shall be saved (Leviticus 26:11,12; Romans 11). So who is “all Israel”? All who have been saved by grace through faith whether of the natural vine, those previously “broken off”, or those like me who have been grafted in and made new by being born from above in Messiah.

Now let us explore another clue. Paul tells us that the ultimate completion of this (Roman’s 11) process will happen when “the fullness of the Gentiles“ has come in. When “the fullness of the Gentiles” comes in, the olive branches that were broken off being rejoined, and the wild olive branches being grafted in, the sticks of Judah and Joseph will once again become “one stick“ in the hand of Messiah as spoken of by the Prophet Jeremiah. All these are the same phenomena, and will not be fully realized (as to what this all means) until just following the time of Jacob’s trouble (the Tribulation period) which culminates in the coming (parousia) of the Son of Man. Again, as Zechariah 12:10 indicates.

This final fulfillment, when we are all one, will be complete following the time of the Two Witnesses spoken of in Revelations 11, who as it appears now, against that which was previously illumined, are possibly not just two individual human witnesses at all, but as the Scripture itself says the “two olive trees“. According to the Scriptures these could well be Ephraim (within the Church), which had become “Roa“, or broken off, or made worthless (Jeremiah 11:16), because they had become “a degenerate shoot and a foreign vine“ (the word for “foreign“ here in the Hebrew, being the Hebrew word “nokri“ a common euphemism for “gentiles“ among the Rabbis, even to this day…see Jeremiah 2:21), and the other being the people of Judah (Judaism) who have come to believe. However they could also be as the scriptures elsewhere describe the two olive trees being “two anointed ones“ that God has sent, perhaps Enoch and Elijah because they have not yet tasted death, or as some believe they could be Moses and Elijah (representing the witness of the Law and the Prophets) who appeared with Messiah on the Mount in glory, or perhaps it is the two appearances of the one Messiah being stated in allegory. I will not be dogmatic about this issue for however the Lord works it out He knows what is best. Whoever, or whatever the two witnesses shall be that are among us, at the end of this time, Messiah will return, and the elect of Israel and Judah will be saved in that day along with all the Gentiles who have likewise found their rest in Shiloh (the Ruler of Peace)! The condition just prior to His second coming setting the stage for many from Judah’s final and full conversion in Messiah has likewise been described in the scriptures.

Just what is the actual meaning of this curious phrase, “the fullness of the gentiles“. Well first let me say what this is not. It is not “the time of the gentiles“, mentioned in Luke, which is the time of gentile domination over the children of Israel and the children of Judah which began 1,000’s of years ago, that won’t actually end until the return of Messiah at His coming! Well if it is not that, then what is it? Well in Roman’s 11, the former Lawyer, and wise and learned teacher, Rabbi Sha’ul, student of the respected Rabbi Gamaliel, or as we know him, Saint Paul, tells us about three groups comprised of three different peoples (see also 1 Corinthians 10:32)! The three peoples are the unbelieving Jewish people, the unbelieving Gentiles, and the Church of God, who again were not a people at all, i.e., the faithful flock made up of genuine believers from within the two previously mentioned groups. This new third group are an utterly unique people who are made up from among the sons and daughters of the first Adam, but who have been born of the Holy Spirit of God through His Word, and are now the children of the living God, co-heirs with Messiah, the last Adam, the Son of Man!

Those who will be saved by grace through faith, are comprised of members of the natural olive tree, and of its broken off branches (the “nokri” Ephraimites that were sown in among the Gentiles), and those of the wild olive tree which are gentile people made heirs to the promises of Abraham by faith, gathered unto Messiah, who are made co-heirs of the Kingdom “in Messiah”.
 
Upvote 0

pshun2404

Newbie
Jan 26, 2012
6,027
620
✟93,900.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Part IV

Paul makes use of this idea of being joined together, when he comments on how the branches that were broken off (the Roa) can be placed back in, and how the wild olive branches will likewise be “grafted in“ (see Zechariah 4:11-14). But where did this learned, master teacher of the Torah, get this concept of “the fullness of the gentiles“, and what exactly was he talking about? Is it as the gentile commentators like Clarke and Tyndale, and other learned men and women of God have later surmised in light of the teachings of the organized hierarchical Church, i.e., a set, or predetermined number, of gentile believers but is this the actual indication? It turns out that Paul got this phrase from an Old Covenant prophecy.

My study of the words in this phrase come from Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew Lexicon not Strong’s. However, Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance also bears this out. The insight was given to me from the Holy Spirit while studying the Houses of Israel and Judah as separate entities. Later I found confirmation from many scholars (including many Rabbis) who are by far more learned people than myself. Therefore, I would never claim this interpretation to be unique. This relates to a much larger body of data that perhaps I will present in article or study form for the edification of the saints, but anyway, I believe this is sufficient to demonstrate I am not just making up this understanding of the phrase.

Melo’ #H4393: is a masculine noun which literally means “fullness” or “that which fills” but it can also mean completeness (the verb form ‘mala’ means to accomplish or to be amassed together)

Ha’ is a standard definite article which is usually interpreted ‘the’, ‘of the’, or ‘a’! For example: Baruch v’Ha’Shem Adonai Y’shua Ha’Moschiach Tzeddkenu means Blessed be the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, our Righteousness. This article, just like in English always refers to the noun which in Hebrew precedes it (which in this Scripture is goyim) which in our English follows it (we say “the gentiles or nations” they say “gentiles the or nations the”.

A second feature taken from Genesius Hebrew Grammar reveals that in Hebrew when the definite article is used it automatically implies we do not know precisely who the person, or which object, is being described…like if I said go and pick the apple of your choice from my orchard I couldn’t possibly know which apple you would pick but that you would pick one would be without doubt. So when we say Ha’Shem (the Name) we cannot be sure which Name is being referred to. In this case the Tetragrammaton (YHVH) may be the name, but exactly how is it correctly pronounced…no one really knows!

Now as for ‘Goyim’ (#H1471), it is the plural of “goy” which refers to all non-Hebrews, i.e., the physical descendants of Abraham, as well as to the heathen who knew not God. In all fairness, can be used to refer to “the nations” again meaning the world apart from Jacob’s tribes. The cognate root of the word is “ga-ah’ which means to have grown up, to be exalted in triumph, or to be lifted.

Paul’s phrase “pleroma ton ethon’, in Greek, therefore speaks directly to the learned Rabbis of the diaspora as a reference to the LXX translation of Genesis 48:19 which in classical Greek says ‘plethos ethnon’.

When we get to the Old Latin version (late 2nd century), Jerome rendered the LXX version to be ‘creset in gentes’ which literally means ‘a full number of gentiles’. I believe it is here where the direction away from the original understanding began. In my opinion, those who read this slight differentiation, in this twice removed tongue, did not get the correct notion.

The question has been asked of me, “So are you saying that the fullness of the gentile Ephraimites (Israelites) are presently being saved?” Yes! As the gentiles are coming in, these still lost sheep of the House of Israel are indeed being saved as they have been intermingled into the gentiles who are coming in.

Just a thought to consider…has anyone else seen this?

Paul
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0