a few questions

i love god as much as the next person but i believe since god made us in his image, he is probably has logical intelligence

the bible likes to associate god with every significant event, which is a big problem in credibility, most of it is based off mythology and allegory

if god is perfect why does he permit evil to exist and have so much power, i believe evil has no bearing from the influence of an outside source, it is something as natural as good, i think the chapters of joshua(i think) is kind of ridiculous, he commands them to kill another group of ppl breaking his own laws 10 commandments

if god is perfect, everything he creates is perfect and has purpose, to create beings knowing they will never accept a far-fetched idea as christ, is trivial, this would imply god is prejudice

i prefer that idea from that branch, i think baptist, where everyone is accepted into god's kingdom to further their learning

billyjean11 said:

i love god as much as the next person but i believe since god made us in his image, he is probably has logical intelligence

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This seems like an incomplete thought what do you mean?

the bible likes to associate god with every significant event, which is a big problem in credibility, most of it is based off mythology and allegory

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such as?

if god is perfect why does he permit evil to exist and have so much power, i believe evil has no bearing from the influence of an outside source, it is something as natural as good,

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The Why:
The short answer is free will.

Sin: is anything not in the expressed will of God.

Evil: is a malicious intent to commit sin.

Not all sin is evil, but all evil is sin.

Free will: is the ability to choose an action not in the expressed will of God. In other words True free will as the bible describes it, is the ability to sin.

In turn, Having a malicious intent to be outside of the will of God, is the ultimate expression of Free will. Without Evil we have no legitimate claim on free will.

We have free will for one reason. That is to choose where we want to spend eternity. With God or away from God. Free will is true choice. But, in simply giving us the true ability to choose we are faced with the options to be evil as well. Again, without evil. we are not truly free to choose anything. If God is hold evil from us then what is the point of giving us partial free will? What would be the point of this life if we are not here to choose?

However in reality This is our gift, and our curse. Because in the very act of choosing to be in our own will, by definition, we are no longer in God's expressed will. This first choice places us in a position of forfeiture of the righteousness required to coexist with God. Fortunately God made atonement for our sins in the blood sacrifice of Christ. So now we have the ability to Choose to be with God, and the righteousness to be with Him as provided by the sin sacrifice of Christ.

i think the chapters of joshua(i think) is kind of ridiculous, he commands them to kill another group of ppl breaking his own laws 10 commandments

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If you time traveled back to the time and place where Hitler spent His childhood, would you opt to save millions of people by killing him? Millions of lives for one does this sound like a fair trade? What if it were not Hitler? what if it were now? and some how one man held millions of lives in peril? If you had the opportunity to save millions by killing one man would you do it?

The same hold true here, God had a plan for salvation. He knew that those people would disrupt that plan, disrupt His people. so a few hundred were killed to save many many more.

if god is perfect, everything he creates is perfect and has purpose, to create beings knowing they will never accept a far-fetched idea as Christ, is trivial, this would imply god is prejudice

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so?

i prefer that idea from that branch, i think baptist, where everyone is accepted into god's kingdom to further their learning

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I spent some time in that "branch" i must have missed that days lesson.

billyjean11 said:

i love god as much as the next person but i believe since god made us in his image, he is probably has logical intelligence

the bible likes to associate god with every significant event, which is a big problem in credibility, most of it is based off mythology and allegory

if god is perfect why does he permit evil to exist and have so much power, i believe evil has no bearing from the influence of an outside source, it is something as natural as good, i think the chapters of joshua(i think) is kind of ridiculous, he commands them to kill another group of ppl breaking his own laws 10 commandments

if god is perfect, everything he creates is perfect and has purpose, to create beings knowing they will never accept a far-fetched idea as christ, is trivial, this would imply god is prejudice

i prefer that idea from that branch, i think baptist, where everyone is accepted into god's kingdom to further their learning

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You have asked a lot of questions and made some very good observations, but your conclusions show you are making some wrong assumptions.

You have to understand the objectives, to understand anything and everything else. The objectives compel the results and even God.

You are actually wondering why a Loving God would not put all humans in a Garden of Eden type situation without satan or the tree of knowledge.

Sin actually has a purpose.

If the objective was for humans “not to sin” and live with God here on earth forever then we would all be in a Garden type situation without the tree of knowledge, satan and without “sex” (sex gets in the way since it is a cause of competition) or we could all be just paired up.

The problem is God wants us to be like He is (God’s Love is compelling Him to create beings that can Lo First: Try this out for why God created man: God’s Love compelled Him to create beings that could Love like He Loves.

This Godly type Love is the real issue since it cannot be just instinctively given to us (robotic love) and it cannot be forcible given to us ( Love or I torture you) for that would not be Loving on God’s part and the love that was forced on us would not be Godly type Love.

Man’s objective is thus to obtain and grow this Godly type Love to fulfill the mission (statement) of Love God and secondly others with all our heart, soul, mind, and energy.

This Godly type Love is defined by Jesus’ words and deeds (you can also use 1 Cor 13 and 1 John 4).

God is doing and allowing all He can to help those that are just willing to accept His help fulfill their objective. That Christ to go to the cross, satan to roam the earth, tragedies of all kind, hell, evil, and even sin.

God is not trying to trying to get us to do something, but is trying to give us the most powerful force in all universes if we will just accept the gift as it was given (charity). Having Godly Love is having the most powerful force in all universes.


Understanding the Adam and Eve story without believing they are real people:

1. Man was made as best as man could be made to fulfill his objective and is described by God as very good. Man is not “perfect” like Christ, because he is a made being and Christ was not made. A&E become the best human “representatives” we could have. God did not mess up.

2. Man is here on earth to obtain and grow Godly type Love so he can Love God and others with all his heart, soul, mind, and energy. Christ has always had Godly type Love so He did not have to obtain it. God and Christ will do all they can to help willing individuals fulfill their objective.

3. Godly type Love is defined best by Christ’s words and deeds. It is not instinctive or that would be robotic type Love and it cannot be forced (love me or I shot) on man or that would not be man’s Love. This “Love” has to be the result of a moral decision on man’s part with likely alternatives (the perceived pleasures of sin for a season).

4. If A&E had obtained Godly type Love they would have obeyed “…if you Love me you will obey me…” God was Loving them with Godly Love but they did not accept that Love as it was given (unconditionally and undeserving).

5. In the Garden before they sinned there was no reason for A&E to humble themselves enough to accept charity (a free undeserving gift). People do not like to take charity and A&E before sinning had done nothing wrong, so as extremely good children they could expect their Father to love them as any good parent would love good children and they would love a wonderful parent as any good children would love a wonderful parent. Unfortunately that is not Godly type Love.

6. The tree and satan being in the Garden, provided a way for A&E and us to see they did not have Godly type Love and were not accepting God’s Love as it was given.

7. The whole Garden situation (which we sometimes think is where a Loving God should put us all) shows A&E and all the rest of us that it is a lousy place to fulfill our objectives and points out the advantages of being where: Christ does go to the cross, satan is around, tragedies happen, heaven, hell and sin.

8. God did not create humans to get something from them, but to give the greatest gift He could give to them (which is also the greatest power in the universe since it compels God to do all He does). In order for this transaction of giving and receiving to take place the gift must be received by the receiver of the gift as a gift or the transaction does not take place.

9. The way this world is and all the history leading up to this world is the best arrangement for those that are or will desire and/or wanting God’s Love, to accept His Love.

The problem is not sin (unforgiven sin is a huge problem), because God will forgive our sins which helps us to Love. God hates sin, but does allow it so we can more easily accept His Love. The problem is not knowing that God exists, since a very small amount of faith is needed to help humans and knowledge of there being a God would only upset those that do not want the Christian God. The problem is our fulfilling our objective.

God is doing all He can to help willing individuals fulfill their objective. That “all” includes allow Christ to go to the cross, satan to roam the earth, tragedies of all kind, hell, heaven and even sin.

^ i agree with most of that

but why does god condemn those who dont know or acknowledge jesus, wasnt buddha and other enlightened ones that did much good in theology, worth merit

billyjean11 said:

^ i agree with most of that

but why does god condemn those who dont know or acknowledge jesus, wasnt buddha and other enlightened ones that did much good in theology, worth merit

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“Merit” is not what God is looking for and “Merit” has its own reward in this world.

God looks at people’s hearts (it needs to be soft and humble) and He makes the judgment. All mature adults do stuff that hurts others and they feel sorrow for this. This sorrow grows with transgressions and they seek relieve. Some will eventually trust (faith) in a benevolent Creator that would forgive them and with that find true relieve through God’s forgiveness even though they do not understand how it could happen (it happens by what Christ has done). God has placed a conscience on the heart of every mature adult, so they can accept God’s Love.

I don't know if this will help, but when I was a young lad and trying to wrap my head around this same question this is what came to my mind after alot of thinking. This is very simple thinking from when I was a young boy keep in mind, but it still makes sense to me.

If you wanted to throw a birthday party for youself who would you invite? would it be people that you tried to get to know but never gave you the time of day? Would it be people who are mean to you and put you down? People who talk about you behind your back? People who only give you the time of day when they want something from you? Or friends who you know love you and stick by your side in good times and bad times? All these people you had at one point tried to make friends with, but only a few accepted your friendship. So who do you want to invite into your home to celebrate with you?? Again, this is far from God and heaven, but it helped me to think of it in simple terms.

BeeWrangler said:

I don't know if this will help, but when I was a young lad and trying to wrap my head around this same question this is what came to my mind after alot of thinking. This is very simple thinking from when I was a young boy keep in mind, but it still makes sense to me.

If you wanted to throw a birthday party for youself who would you invite? would it be people that you tried to get to know but never gave you the time of day? Would it be people who are mean to you and put you down? People who talk about you behind your back? People who only give you the time of day when they want something from you? Or friends who you know love you and stick by your side in good times and bad times? All these people you had at one point tried to make friends with, but only a few accepted your friendship. So who do you want to invite into your home to celebrate with you?? Again, this is far from God and heaven, but it helped me to think of it in simple terms.

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but god is perfect, and we are his children, why abandon us if we are in a world with no proof of him and with so many choices to accept him (religions)

billyjean11 said:

but god is perfect, and we are his children, why abandon us if we are in a world with no proof of him and with so many choices to accept him (religions)

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There is plenty of proof, it is the bible. Everything in the bible that was predicted has come to be, of course there are still things that have not like the return of Christ, but it will come to be some day. There is lots of proof, but God is not going to come down and say "see, I am real!" and do some tricks to proove it for everyone that wants proof other than his word, there would be no room for faith if he did that. As far as so many choices to accept him, the bible can narrow this down for you. If a church teaches to do something and the bible says not to do it, such as pray to anyone or anything other than Jesus Christ our Lord, then your in the wrong church. As for religions that do not accept Christ, I would run if I where you. There has been many, many non Christians that did everything they could to proove Christ was not real and the bible is just a story book. Non of them are able to proove this, and alot of them came to Christ because of this. The author of the the chronicles of Narnia is just one of these people

billyjean11 said:

but god is perfect, and we are his children, why abandon us if we are in a world with no proof of him and with so many choices to accept him (religions)

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What kinda of choice would we truly have if we could physically see the city of Heaven floating above us in the sky?

God wants to be with all who seek Him, so He provides "Evidence" to all who Ask, Seek, and knock. This gives confirmation to the believer and it allows the unbeliever the freedom to stay in his unbelief.

billyjean11,
All people have choices in life. God created humans in His own image. As such, we have choices, MAJOR choices in life.

God does not condemn humans to eternal punishment, we do by our choices. We are the keepers of our eternity by choices we make on this earth. Actually, by ONE CHOICE: Do I accept Jesus' sacrifice on my behalf and believe in Him, OR NOT? THAT choice is ours and determines EVERYTHING ELSE. God made having a relationship with Him that simple. Once we make that decision, if we make the right choice, the mysteries of the Bible are made clear to us as we continue to draw closer to Christ. God even sent His Holy Spirit to those who believe, to help us understand those mysteries.

Problem is, if you do not have Christ in your life, you will always struggle to understand the Bible. God designed it that way.

Lee

God has not abandoned us. Far from it. Humans choose to abandon God, but He is always right there waiting for us to come back and acknowledge Him.

if god cares why would it matter which path we take to find him? why would religion be relevant

why does he need acknowledgment if he already gave us salvation

doesnt that defy the definition of god as loving, i always think that's a imperfect love, where conditions are necessary to receive love, that is not love imo at least not a perfect love

billyjean11 said:

if god cares why would it matter which path we take to find him? why would religion be relevant

why does he need acknowledgment if he already gave us salvation

doesn't that defy the definition of god as loving, i always think that's a imperfect love, where conditions are necessary to receive love, that is not love imo at least not a perfect love

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If you took a Homeless man into your Home would you subject him to conditions and rules or would you just allow him free range to do as he wished? Would you give Him access to your whole house, Your car, Your Children, Your wife, Your bank account to do with what he willed? Or again would your loving kindness have boundaries?

What if this man insisted on using the "bathroom" when and where he pleased, and refused to shower because he had become accustomed to doing so on the street? Would you enforce a common curiously/hygiene rule even if having the right to goto the "bathroom" anywhere he wanted to in the House and not showering was something he held on to with great pride?

Now what if it cost you your only son to have this man stay in your house? Would he be there if he would not even acknowledge your son's sacrifice? Would he be there if he refused to follow your simple and loving rules for basic hygiene?

Then why would you expect God to allow you, a poop covered homeless man into heaven (His House) when it cost Him His Son for you to have this opportunity to get "cleaned up" and join all of those who want to be there with God?

Why the double standard?

drich0150 said:

If you took a Homeless man into your Home would you subject him to conditions and rules or would you just allow him free range to do as he wished? Would you give Him access to your whole house, Your car, Your Children, Your wife, Your bank account to do with what he willed? Or again would your loving kindness have boundaries?

What if this man insisted on using the "bathroom" when and where he pleased, and refused to shower because he had become accustomed to doing so on the street? Would you enforce a common curiously/hygiene rule even if having the right to goto the "bathroom" anywhere he wanted to in the House and not showering was something he held on to with great pride?

Now what if it cost you your only son to have this man stay in your house? Would he be there if he would not even acknowledge your son's sacrifice? Would he be there if he refused to follow your simple and loving rules for basic hygiene?

Then why would you expect God to allow you, a poop covered homeless man into heaven (His House) when it cost Him His Son for you to have this opportunity to get "cleaned up" and join all of those who want to be there with God?

Why the double standard?

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arent we all god's children/creation we are no better or worse than jesus himself

secondly i dont believe in the scapegoat ideology of jesus

and in heaven, there is no ego, no ego no problems

if one is still attached to earthly things, then they will be stuck in purgatory until they can face the light

billyjean11 said:

arent we all god's children/creation we are no better or worse than jesus himself

secondly i dont believe in the scapegoat ideology of jesus

and in heaven, there is no ego, no ego no problems

if one is still attached to earthly things, then they will be stuck in purgatory until they can face the light

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We are all God's creation, yes. Yet, if we do not accept the free method of reconciliation through Christ, we are not yet children of God. We have to choose to be adopted, first. Our choice. God wants us, but not against our desires.

As I explained to you in the other thread, Adam and Eve, violated a trust with God. That broken trust needed to be repaired in order for man and woman to regain their place in fellowship with God, as God originally intended. Whether you accept Jesus as a "scapegoat" or not, it is what it is. Denial of the truth does not make the truth untrue, nor does refusal to accept the truth make it untrue.

Purgatory is a Roman Catholic concept that has no basis in commonly accepted non-RCC doctrines, so I not being RC, will not address that belief.

Be blessed,
Lee