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And unlike human religious institutions, follows the will and governance of the Father, not of man with a vested interest in their organization. Scripture is not free to stray from that fact (unless man rewrites it) but institutions stray constantly to self justify their own existence.Yes, the Kingdom is where Jesus reigns.
Yeah, my post as well. If it doesn't fit the narrative of the (in his mind) clever trap that he laid then it's tried again or ignored. The entire game is based his (fallible) interpretation of one scripture (you don't build sound doctrine on one scripture) and at least 3 logical fallacies by my count. It's a "gotcha" game that is very reminiscent of the one the Pharisees tried to pull on Jesus with the woman caught in the act of adultery, which ironically, I will be preaching on tonight.Yes, his silent response to my post #55 was telling...
Okay, I see what your getting at. Yes I do agree with everything in the Bible, but again,I do not agree with your personal and fallible interpretation of Scripture, which could be in error.....Right?
Yes there are always two ways people will look at scripture, with an understanding of the will of God over the will of man, or more likely through the eyes of the flesh seeking to justify flesh made institutions. Nothing has changed since the Jews did the same thing in Jesus' time, seeking physical gain over spiritual. Claiming to represent spiritual is not the same as actually living it. Even these institutions harbour both kind of human, but those in charge seek to keep the institution, not God's Kingdom, alive.(fallible) interpretation
Okay, so if you do not believe for a Christian, the Bible "is not" the pillar and ground of the truth - i.e., the upholder and foundation of the truth, what do you believe is? According to the Bible?
Thank you
Not an institution but a way of life taken by those who follow the will of the Father and not man, open to all humans.how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God
Agreed. And if your starting point is a "gotcha" game, you've already missed the truth.Yes there are always two ways people will look at scripture, with an understanding of the will of God over the will of man, or more likely through the eyes of the flesh seeking to justify flesh made institutions. Nothing has changed since the Jews did the same thing in Jesus' time, seeking physical gain over spiritual. Claiming to represent spiritual is not the same as actually living it. Even these institutions harbour both kind of human, but those in charge seek to keep the institution, not God's Kingdom, alive.
There was by the time Jesus was born. He dealt with it. Take a look. This was the authority from God in the hands of wicked men.What sort of Bible did Noah have? ;What sort of Bible did Abraham have? What sort of bureaucratic religious institution did either of them have to dictate to them their faith and morals?
There you go...
I will save you the trouble.
1 Timothy 3:15
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
The problem with leaning on that verse is that one would then have to say that the truth didn't exist before the Church was born.
Then all you need do is now settle on a definition of church. Is is a group of people living in 'the way' God commanded, caring for each other and not pursuing self interest, or is it an institution resembling human governments complete with all sorts of rules and rituals that more protect the church and control the congregants than follow the will of God ( while leaving that charitable part of it to the congregants to form their own societies within).As we can clearly see from this passage, for a Christian "the Church" is the pillar and ground of the truth - i.e., the upholder and foundation of the truth.
Absolutely! The original churches, in the same manner as those in the synagogues before them, hashed it out with each other using scripture as their foundation. They still do it today. Followers of Jesus are quite capable of doing that themselves even in home churhes as they did in the beginning, without turning it over to yet another human government official. Consider how Jesus told Peter it was not Peter that came up with the truth when He asked the disciples who the people said He was, but the Father. Yet some turn around and build a church calling Peter the rock instead of it being God's truth (which was the meaning of that solid foundation given by Jesus). Not of man, but of God. Man is no substitute for God but man and the Adversary like to believe so.is it your belief there exists no person or no earthly institution that can infallibly decide what is true and what is false when it comes to matters of faith and/or morals?
Thank you, Carl for sharing this writing for us from St. Paul, and answering the question that so many had trouble finding. That being, according to Scripture the bible "is not" for a Christian, the pillar and ground of the truth - i.e., the upholder and foundation of the truth. As we can clearly see from this passage, for a Christian "the Church" is the pillar and ground of the truth - i.e., the upholder and foundation of the truth.
The question was "For a Christian, what is the pillar and ground of the truth - i.e., the upholder and foundation of the truth? Is it the Bible? Yes or no?" There was no Christian Church before Jesus established it. (Mt 16:17 ; Mt. 5:13-16; Mt. 16:17; Mt. 28:18; Luke 10:16; Mt 16:19; Mt.18:18; Mt 28:19.)
So Carl, as we read in the passage you posted, we see the Bible is not the pillar and ground of the truth for the Christian, the church is. Now as a Bible only believing Protestant, and under your Protestant theological system, is it your belief there exists no person or no earthly institution that can infallibly decide what is true and what is false when it comes to matters of faith and/or morals?
If you believe this to be true - that you can't trust them when it comes to your salvation, and that the only authority capable of being infallible is God - then how can the Word of God tell us that the church is the pillar and ground of the truth - the upholder and foundation of the truth? How?! And why?! If no earthly institution is capable of giving us the truth with 100% certainty - i.e., infallibly - then how could the church be referred to as the pillar of the truth? Or the ground of the truth?
Have a Blessed day!
No. From what you post, it is evident that you are operating from a stereotype that you have of Protestants generally...and you seemingly won't listen to anything that casts any part of that unfavorable stereotype into question.
No. That is definitely untrue. Unless you're a Unitarian (and even there it's questionable), any Protestant denomination you can point to has clearly defined doctrines that are considered to be the truth to the exclusion of error and that the members are expected to believe.
Sounds pretty much the same as in your church, doesn't it?
No. Wrong.
What I said was that no person ("human") has been endowed with infallibility.
See posts 17 and 20.
No human is infallible.
That's right. People can be correct when it comes to making a decision, but that's not to say that they are endowed with a supernatural power of being infallible, i.e., being incapable of making a mistake.
It was clear from the beginning that the OP was disingenuous, and that has since been shown to be true.
Yes, his silent response to my post #55 was telling...
Yeah, my post as well. If it doesn't fit the narrative of the (in his mind) clever trap that he laid then it's tried again or ignored. The entire game is based his (fallible) interpretation of one scripture (you don't build sound doctrine on one scripture) and at least 3 logical fallacies by my count. It's a "gotcha" game that is very reminiscent of the one the Pharisees tried to pull on Jesus with the woman caught in the act of adultery, which ironically, I will be preaching on tonight.
The thread speaks for itself. You tried to trick people with a "gotcha" that the RCC is the pillar and ground of the truth, straight up. It's obvious to everyone. Trying to set people up to prove your point rather than just making it plain IS disingenuous.Nope, you would be in error.
I am sorry that your memory seems to be very short. I answered your quested in post #34 where I wrote, "Not at all." Do I need to be clearer than that for you?
You also seem to have this problem with other posters here who have flatly stated the same to you, yet you continue to badger them for an answer. Why is that?
By the way, I note that you have not get weighed in on my thread. I do look forward to seeing you there.
The thread speaks for itself. You tried to trick people with a "gotcha" that the RCC is the pillar and ground of the truth, straight up. It's obvious to everyone. Trying to set people up to prove your point rather than just making it plain IS disingenuous.
Ah-hem..... See my post #63, read it very carefully, and follow the instructions. Okay?
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