A discussion of the Deep Things of God

Gary K

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I am sorry that you think I was angry. I assure you that was never the case. We can continue talking anytime
I'm really glad to hear that. You stopped answering my posts so I didn't know what else to think.
 
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I am sorry that I have been away, many personal things to deal with at this time. No major importance but God is showing me the words of Job, blessed is the man whom God chastises, He wounds but He binds up, He smites but His hands give healing. I will review your last post, and we can continue.
 
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I fully agree.

But that does not make the the works we do our own works. It is God who works with in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure. That leaves no place for us to do any good works of our own. It's called righteousness by faith.

That was the reason for all the conflict during the Reformation and all the people burnt at the stake. God's grace allowed that and caused them to go willingly and Joyfully to their deaths, I don't know if you have ever read D'aubigne's history of the Reformation but he tells of a young guy in Scotland who was burnt at the stake. After he'd been in the midst of the fire for a long time one of his friends asked him if he was still alive. He raised two fingers one on hand. Why only two fingers? The other three were burnt off. A little bit later he died because the chain holding him to the stake had been red hot for a long time and it burnt clear through him and his body collapsed in two pieces. That is the grace of God. If you or I were being burnt at the stake we'd be screaming bloody murder from that kind of pain. No one would have to ask us if we were still alive,


That is a good point. I have never said that the works we do come from our own merit. As the scripture says it is no longer I that live, but Christ lives in me. My point was that a man cannot claim to have faith and not have works. The works come from Christ, but we still do them.

I am not as experienced as you, but I have been around awhile, 60 years, and I have seen many people who claim to have faith alone, and some do not appear to understand it properly
I remember a woman who thought that her faith earned her an easy life, and she would not have to face hard questions. She said she was having a hard day and felt depressed. Tells me a spirit said she is not walking according to her inheritance and she agreed. Her testimony was her husband brought home roses and made her feel better. Other occasions she treated Jesus like her prom date that was just there for her. She claimed faith yet was the most arrogant woman I would have met. She claimed her beauty allowed her to speak with unbelievers about Jesus, another one thought she just had to dress like a clown and dance around to attract people to Jesus. If someone would talk to them and try to explain what the Bible says, they would retreat to the standard you are judging me routine. I am sorry, that is not faith.

Faith has us deny ourselves and follow Jesus. These women wanted to amplify themselves and have Jesus follow them. No one could tell them different.
I think you and I misunderstand each other when we say faith alone. You believe that good works come from God and not of ourselves. I wholeheartedly agree, but you seem to say the we are saved BY faith.

My position, and what I have found in Scripture is the we are Saved by Grace through faith. To receive grace we must respond in obedience to the command of Christ. How do we do that?
Jesus said unless a man be born again of Water and the Spirt, he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. How are we born of water? Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

The Gospel is preached and we hear it. We see that we are dirty with sin and need to be cleansed. How do we get clean? Jesus said whoever believes and is baptized will be saved.
Baptism is the act of obedience that God uses to give us the grace to be saved. When we act in obedience, God gives us the gifts of Faith, Hope, and Charity. These are the theological virtues that come from God alone, and cannot be obtained by human effort. Faith is one of the gifts of salvation, not the cause of justification.

1Corinthians 13 explains very well that it is not faith alone. If I have faith to move mountains, yet have not charity, I am nothing. These three remain, Faith, Hope, and Charity, but the greatest of these is Charity.
Charity is more than just loving your neighbor. The first great commandment is to love God with your whole heart, whole mind, and whole soul. Jesus said If you love me you will keep my commandments. When one has Charity he searches the scriptures to find ways to obey God, he does not ignore the scripture and listen to the opinions of men and look for validation of his thinking from fellow men. He based his actions on what God says and changes his behavior accordingly. If he is stuck in the habit of sin, he is not discouraged and try to have people tell him it’s ok Jesus knows he can’t help himself, no he sees Jesus promises if any man lacks anything let him ask me in prayer and he will receive. The just man caught in sin is not content in his sin, but cries out as the man did to Our Lord, I believe, help thou my unbelief!

My position is with the Catholic Church. It is BY grace we are saved THROUGH faith. It is not of yourselves lest any man should boast. That includes boasting of faith. “Oh I believe better than you so God loves me more because I am saved by my faith.” That is not right. The faith that I have is a gift from God, I cannot boast in it.
I must proclaim that it is open to anyone. Give up the unwinnable fight as we attempt to make our path easy toward death. Just ask Him to help you and follow His commands. As Our Lady says, do whatever he tells you.

Peace be with you
 
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Gary K

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That is a good point. I have never said that the works we do come from our own merit. As the scripture says it is no longer I that live, but Christ lives in me. My point was that a man cannot claim to have faith and not have works. The works come from Christ, but we still do them.

I am not as experienced as you, but I have been around awhile, 60 years, and I have seen many people who claim to have faith alone, and some do not appear to understand it properly
I remember a woman who thought that her faith earned her an easy life, and she would not have to face hard questions. She said she was having a hard day and felt depressed. Tells me a spirit said she is not walking according to her inheritance and she agreed. Her testimony was her husband brought home roses and made her feel better. Other occasions she treated Jesus like her prom date that was just there for her. She claimed faith yet was the most arrogant woman I would have met. She claimed her beauty allowed her to speak with unbelievers about Jesus, another one thought she just had to dress like a clown and dance around to attract people to Jesus. If someone would talk to them and try to explain what the Bible says, they would retreat to the standard you are judging me routine. I am sorry, that is not faith.

Faith has us deny ourselves and follow Jesus. These women wanted to amplify themselves and have Jesus follow them. No one could tell them different.
I think you and I misunderstand each other when we say faith alone. You believe that good works come from God and not of ourselves. I wholeheartedly agree, but you seem to say the we are saved BY faith.

My position, and what I have found in Scripture is the we are Saved by Grace through faith. To receive grace we must respond in obedience to the command of Christ. How do we do that?
Jesus said unless a man be born again of Water and the Spirt, he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. How are we born of water? Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

The Gospel is preached and we hear it. We see that we are dirty with sin and need to be cleansed. How do we get clean? Jesus said whoever believes and is baptized will be saved.
Baptism is the act of obedience that God uses to give us the grace to be saved. When we act in obedience, God gives us the gifts of Faith, Hope, and Charity. These are the theological virtues that come from God alone, and cannot be obtained by human effort. Faith is one of the gifts of salvation, not the cause of justification.

1Corinthians 13 explains very well that it is not faith alone. If I have faith to move mountains, yet have not charity, I am nothing. These three remain, Faith, Hope, and Charity, but the greatest of these is Charity.
Charity is more than just loving your neighbor. The first great commandment is to love God with your whole heart, whole mind, and whole soul. Jesus said If you love me you will keep my commandments. When one has Charity he searches the scriptures to find ways to obey God, he does not ignore the scripture and listen to the opinions of men and look for validation of his thinking from fellow men. He based his actions on what God says and changes his behavior accordingly. If he is stuck in the habit of sin, he is not discouraged and try to have people tell him it’s ok Jesus knows he can’t help himself, no he sees Jesus promises if any man lacks anything let him ask me in prayer and he will receive. The just man caught in sin is not content in his sin, but cries out as the man did to Our Lord, I believe, help thou my unbelief!

My position is with the Catholic Church. It is BY grace we are saved THROUGH faith. It is not of yourselves lest any man should boast. That includes boasting of faith. “Oh I believe better than you so God loves me more because I am saved by my faith.” That is not right. The faith that I have is a gift from God, I cannot boast in it.
I must proclaim that it is open to anyone. Give up the unwinnable fight as we attempt to make our path easy toward death. Just ask Him to help you and follow His commands. As Our Lady says, do whatever he tells you.

Peace be with you
The only thing I would disagree with is that asking God to help us is the wrong approach. Our power + God's power equals no power. When the Holy Spirit fell on the disciples 5000 were converted in a day. That means it is all God's power that changes us.
 
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The only thing I would disagree with is that asking God to help us is the wrong approach. Our power + God's power equals no power. When the Holy Spirit fell on the disciples 5000 were converted in a day. That means it is all God's power that changes us.

I whole heartedly agree that it is all God’s power. So does the Catholic Church. Catholics are often accused of being a “works based” religion, and we ignore the grace of God in justification, but base it on works. It could appear that way, but it is not true. Consider the first five canons of the Council of Trent. The one that the reformers say they disagree with the most, and we have been accused of anathematizing the Gospel. That’s a serious charge if it were true. Given the seriousness of the matter, it deserves further review. We as Christians do not rely of gossip and buzz words, but pursue truth.
Here are the first five canons, and from my reading, they seem to say what you and I are talking about. It is all God’s power, yet we as men cooperate with God. I’ll post what ai have and you can criticize or disagree, but I ask that you use scripture to back your position. I will do the same. Here are the first five canons.

CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.

CANON II.-If any one saith, that the grace of God, through Jesus Christ, is given only for this, that man may be able more easily to live justly, and to merit eternal life, as if, by free will without grace, he were able to do both, though hardly indeed and with difficulty; let him be anathema.

CANON III.-If any one saith, that without the prevenient inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and without his help, man can believe, hope, love, or be penitent as he ought, so as that the grace of Justification may be bestowed upon him; let him be anathema.

CANON IV.-If any one saith, that man's free will moved and excited by God, by assenting to God exciting and calling, nowise co-operates towards disposing and preparing itself for obtaining the grace of Justification; that it cannot refuse its consent, if it would, but that, as something inanimate, it does nothing whatever and is merely passive; let him be anathema.

CANON V.-If any one saith, that, since Adam's sin, the free will of man is lost and extinguished; or, that it is a thing with only a name, yea a name without a reality, a figment, in fine, introduced into the Church by Satan; let him be anathema



The first three canons, I believe that you can agree with. Canon I we are not saved by works. Canon II, Jesus is not just and example. His death is not to just show us to way to heaven and we get there on our own. It is His power that transforms us, not our own effort. Canon III God is not a secret and heaven is not such a good deal, we can choose it on our own? NO! We must be called of God to follow Him. Unless the Holy Spirit acts, we would never choose to follow God.


Canon IV speaks against the irresistible grace of the Calvinists. This is where I believe that you may disagree, but I do see scriptural support for it. To me, this canon means that we are not robots, nor slaves, but sons. A son has free will, a slave does not. There is predestination, but that comes from God’s love, not from forced obedience.

Consider 1Cor2:9-10

9 But, as it is written: That eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither hath it entered into the heart of man, what things God hath prepared for them that love him. 10 But to us God hath revealed them, by his Spirit. For the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

God wants to share His creation with those that love Him. He does not want machines to just play praise songs, and people with forced smiles in their face to say they love Him. He wants those that love Him for real.
We get glimpses of this in everyday life. We don’t like to be a man of authority surrounded by “yes men”. We know that they don’t mean it and are only going through motions perhaps to fool us and get our favor. We know when our wife loves us and is filled with joy, or merely trying to keep the peace.
Forced love or slavery feels like a lie to us. Why would we expect less from God. Our wills must be free, or it is not love.
When we love God, we freely obey Him, it is not forced. A woman will test a man to see if he really loves her, but when she is at peace and knows that he loves her, would she constantly defy him? No, she looks for ways to name him happy, not upset. The same is with us when we love God. He has proven that He loves us by going to the cross. Should we not follow Him and search the scriptures in ways to obey Him?

Consider Isaiah 1


11 To what purpose do you offer me the multitude of your victims, saith the Lord? I am full, I desire not holocausts of rams, and fat of fatlings, and blood of calves, and lambs, and buck goats. 12 When you came to appear before me, who required these things at your hands, that you should walk in my courts? 13 Offer sacrifice no more in vain: incense is an abomination to me. The new moons, and the sabbaths, and other festivals I will not abide, your assemblies are wicked. 14 My soul hateth your new moons, and your solemnities: they are become troublesome to me, I am weary of bearing them. 15 And when you stretch forth your hands, I will turn away my eyes from you: and when you multiply prayer, I will not hear: for your hands are full of blood.

16 Wash yourselves, be clean, take away the evil of your devices from my eyes: cease to do perversely, 17 Learn to do well: seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge for the fatherless, defend the widow. 18 And then come, and accuse me, saith the Lord: if your sins be as scarlet, they shall be made as white as snow: and if they be red as crimson, they shall be white as wool. 19 If you be willing, and will hearken to me, you shall eat the good things of the land. 20 But if you will not, and will provoke me to wrath: the sword shall devour you because the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.

God wants us to really obey Him, not put on a show. In the Old Testament, He says He was full and desired not rams, fatlings, claves, lambs and goats. How much more is He full of sacrifice now that His Only begotten Son has been offered? He wants us to get to what really matters and not just do it for show, either for Him or men. God knows our hearts.

Psalm 34 is a great Psalm. I recommend the whole thing. But verse 8 says taste and see that the Lord is good. When we study His ways and walk in them, we know He is good and His commands are not burdensome. They increase our love for Him, all the more knowing that we lacked the power to do this on our own and never would have chosen to obey, but we still obey and follow

It is our actions but all His power. Should we neglect so great a salvation?

There are so many other scriptures ask and it shall be given, knock and it shall be opened
James says in Chapter 1 if anyone lacks wisdom let him ask God, In chapter 4 he addresses unanswered prayer, and says people are not receiving because they are asking for things to consume. Prayer is for taking with God, not just asking for stuff, rather we want to know Him better.
In revelation 3 He stands at the door and knocks, He does not force His way in, but wants a willing soul. In the end of Revelation it says the Spirit and the bride say come, whosoever will let him drink of the waters of life freely

It is God’s power, He wants us to want it.


I know that I am taking too much and my mind races when I think of God, please pardon my long post
 
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Gary K

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I whole heartedly agree that it is all God’s power. So does the Catholic Church. Catholics are often accused of being a “works based” religion, and we ignore the grace of God in justification, but base it on works. It could appear that way, but it is not true. Consider the first five canons of the Council of Trent. The one that the reformers say they disagree with the most, and we have been accused of anathematizing the Gospel. That’s a serious charge if it were true. Given the seriousness of the matter, it deserves further review. We as Christians do not rely of gossip and buzz words, but pursue truth.
Here are the first five canons, and from my reading, they seem to say what you and I are talking about. It is all God’s power, yet we as men cooperate with God. I’ll post what ai have and you can criticize or disagree, but I ask that you use scripture to back your position. I will do the same. Here are the first five canons.

CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.

CANON II.-If any one saith, that the grace of God, through Jesus Christ, is given only for this, that man may be able more easily to live justly, and to merit eternal life, as if, by free will without grace, he were able to do both, though hardly indeed and with difficulty; let him be anathema.

CANON III.-If any one saith, that without the prevenient inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and without his help, man can believe, hope, love, or be penitent as he ought, so as that the grace of Justification may be bestowed upon him; let him be anathema.

CANON IV.-If any one saith, that man's free will moved and excited by God, by assenting to God exciting and calling, nowise co-operates towards disposing and preparing itself for obtaining the grace of Justification; that it cannot refuse its consent, if it would, but that, as something inanimate, it does nothing whatever and is merely passive; let him be anathema.

CANON V.-If any one saith, that, since Adam's sin, the free will of man is lost and extinguished; or, that it is a thing with only a name, yea a name without a reality, a figment, in fine, introduced into the Church by Satan; let him be anathema



The first three canons, I believe that you can agree with. Canon I we are not saved by works. Canon II, Jesus is not just and example. His death is not to just show us to way to heaven and we get there on our own. It is His power that transforms us, not our own effort. Canon III God is not a secret and heaven is not such a good deal, we can choose it on our own? NO! We must be called of God to follow Him. Unless the Holy Spirit acts, we would never choose to follow God.


Canon IV speaks against the irresistible grace of the Calvinists. This is where I believe that you may disagree, but I do see scriptural support for it. To me, this canon means that we are not robots, nor slaves, but sons. A son has free will, a slave does not. There is predestination, but that comes from God’s love, not from forced obedience.

Consider 1Cor2:9-10

9 But, as it is written: That eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither hath it entered into the heart of man, what things God hath prepared for them that love him. 10 But to us God hath revealed them, by his Spirit. For the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

God wants to share His creation with those that love Him. He does not want machines to just play praise songs, and people with forced smiles in their face to say they love Him. He wants those that love Him for real.
We get glimpses of this in everyday life. We don’t like to be a man of authority surrounded by “yes men”. We know that they don’t mean it and are only going through motions perhaps to fool us and get our favor. We know when our wife loves us and is filled with joy, or merely trying to keep the peace.
Forced love or slavery feels like a lie to us. Why would we expect less from God. Our wills must be free, or it is not love.
When we love God, we freely obey Him, it is not forced. A woman will test a man to see if he really loves her, but when she is at peace and knows that he loves her, would she constantly defy him? No, she looks for ways to name him happy, not upset. The same is with us when we love God. He has proven that He loves us by going to the cross. Should we not follow Him and search the scriptures in ways to obey Him?

Consider Isaiah 1


11 To what purpose do you offer me the multitude of your victims, saith the Lord? I am full, I desire not holocausts of rams, and fat of fatlings, and blood of calves, and lambs, and buck goats. 12 When you came to appear before me, who required these things at your hands, that you should walk in my courts? 13 Offer sacrifice no more in vain: incense is an abomination to me. The new moons, and the sabbaths, and other festivals I will not abide, your assemblies are wicked. 14 My soul hateth your new moons, and your solemnities: they are become troublesome to me, I am weary of bearing them. 15 And when you stretch forth your hands, I will turn away my eyes from you: and when you multiply prayer, I will not hear: for your hands are full of blood.

16 Wash yourselves, be clean, take away the evil of your devices from my eyes: cease to do perversely, 17 Learn to do well: seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge for the fatherless, defend the widow. 18 And then come, and accuse me, saith the Lord: if your sins be as scarlet, they shall be made as white as snow: and if they be red as crimson, they shall be white as wool. 19 If you be willing, and will hearken to me, you shall eat the good things of the land. 20 But if you will not, and will provoke me to wrath: the sword shall devour you because the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.

God wants us to really obey Him, not put on a show. In the Old Testament, He says He was full and desired not rams, fatlings, claves, lambs and goats. How much more is He full of sacrifice now that His Only begotten Son has been offered? He wants us to get to what really matters and not just do it for show, either for Him or men. God knows our hearts.

Psalm 34 is a great Psalm. I recommend the whole thing. But verse 8 says taste and see that the Lord is good. When we study His ways and walk in them, we know He is good and His commands are not burdensome. They increase our love for Him, all the more knowing that we lacked the power to do this on our own and never would have chosen to obey, but we still obey and follow

It is our actions but all His power. Should we neglect so great a salvation?

There are so many other scriptures ask and it shall be given, knock and it shall be opened
James says in Chapter 1 if anyone lacks wisdom let him ask God, In chapter 4 he addresses unanswered prayer, and says people are not receiving because they are asking for things to consume. Prayer is for taking with God, not just asking for stuff, rather we want to know Him better.
In revelation 3 He stands at the door and knocks, He does not force His way in, but wants a willing soul. In the end of Revelation it says the Spirit and the bride say come, whosoever will let him drink of the waters of life freely

It is God’s power, He wants us to want it.


I know that I am taking too much and my mind races when I think of God, please pardon my long post
I agree with all of the reformers. Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Melancthon, Huss, Jerome, Calvin, Tyndale, Knox and all the rest. I am a direct descendant of the Reformers.. The only thing on which we disagree is the Sabbath. I fully believe what they taught about righteousness by faith. That our works are the result of our faith not the cause of it.
 
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I agree with all of the reformers. Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Melancthon, Huss, Jerome, Calvin, Tyndale, Knox and all the rest. I am a direct descendant of the Reformers.. The only thing on which we disagree is the Sabbath. I fully believe what they taught about righteousness by faith. That our works are the result of our faith not the cause of it.
You have stated your beliefs, but what are they based on? The words of men? What did the reformers do when they rebelled against the Church? Has the reformation healed the body of Christ or fracture it further? If so, how?

I am not asking to mock you. I genuinely want to know what you mean.

Do we base our faith on what we think is right, or do we submit ourselves to what the word of God says is right? How do we know?

The reformers taught righteousness by faith, but do the scriptures? I have shown you the scripture that says salvation is by grace, not of ourselves. Faith is a gift to those that are justified not the cause of that justification.
If you look at it and contemplate what you are doing, when you say that we are saved by faith alone, then you claim we can save ourselves. Would that make salvation a gift or a wage earned?

Wrestle with the word of God and really think, as Jacob, I will not let you go save thou bless me.

I just want you to think of what you are relying on to be justified. Is it God or the words of men?
 
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