a cursed and fallen world

OldWiseGuy · Feb 4, 2007

gluadys said:
Seems to me that one or both of two propositions still need to be established to support this POV.

1) that the bodies of angels were originally material.
2) that earth was originlly intended to be their dwelling place.

It seems to me that Jude could equally well be referring to the opposite--that the rebellious angels left their first habitation (spiritual bodies in heaven) and sinned by adopting material bodies on earth.

Angels were created first as spirit beings. God, probably at the request of Lucifer, created the material universe, including the earth, as a 'kingdom' for Lucifer and the angels. Earth was the center of sensuality (climate, taste, touch, sight, smell, etc.) and was their primary dwellilng place. God formed bodies for them so that they could enjoy this paradise.

After perhaps billions of (our) years Lucifer and one-third of the angels wanted a share of the spirit kingdom of God, and left their estate (state of grace and favor), as well as their habitation (earth and body) and sought residency in the third heaven of God's throne.

gluadys · Feb 4, 2007

oldwiseguy said:
I don't think that angels have the power to do that. I think that God created the material universe, including the earth, especially for the angels to enjoy, but after he had created them as spirit beings. The angels "sang for joy when the foundation of the earth were laid" This indicates that the spirit realm existed first.

I believe this refers to the ancient earth when it was first created. The angels were to inhabit it, enjoying the sensuality of taste, touch, smell, etc. of paradise, within wonderfully designed physical bodies.

After perhaps billion of (our) years (the one known as) Lucifer, having enjoyed everything in this material universe to the full ("When I have fed you to the full, you will depart from me.") wanted more.

This theme has repeated throughout history, and is part of the nature that we inherited through the rebellion of Eve and Adam. I hope you can see where I'm coming from here.

It just strikes me as a completely made up story. I find nothing in scripture to support it and much in nature to refute it. So I wonder what you have besides imagination to convince you.

theFijian · Feb 5, 2007

oldwiseguy said:
God, probably at the request of Lucifer, created the material universe, including the earth, as a 'kingdom' for Lucifer and the angels.

Utter cobblers. The material universe was created for, through and to Christ. Rom 11:36.

jds1977 · Feb 5, 2007

Angels are ministering spirits for us humans. They were created before us but according to scripture, they were created to minister to us. I don't know anywhere in scripture where it implies that the earth was created for Satan or angels. The angels, who kept not their first estate but left their own habitation,(habitation:

3613 oivkhth,rion 

oiketerion {oy-kay-tay'-ree-on}

Meaning:

1) a dwelling place, habitation 1a) of the body as a dwelling place for the spirit )
This word, oiketerion, is only used once more in 2Cor. 5:2 as the word "house"...
For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

In my opinion, Jude is referring back to Gen. 6, w/ the sons of God marrying the daughters of men and producing giants. They left their spiritual "habitation" and became flesh and married the daughters of men.

busterdog · Feb 6, 2007

v Originally Posted by oldwiseguy

I don't think that angels have the power to do that. I think that God created the material universe, including the earth, especially for the angels to enjoy, but after he had created them as spirit beings. The angels "sang for joy when the foundation of the earth were laid" This indicates that the spirit realm existed first.

I believe this refers to the ancient earth when it was first created. The angels were to inhabit it, enjoying the sensuality of taste, touch, smell, etc. of paradise, within wonderfully designed physical bodies.

After perhaps billion of (our) years (the one known as) Lucifer, having enjoyed everything in this material universe to the full ("When I have fed you to the full, you will depart from me.") wanted more.

This theme has repeated throughout history, and is part of the nature that we inherited through the rebellion of Eve and Adam. I hope you can see where I'm coming from here.

gluadys said:
It just strikes me as a completely made up story. I find nothing in scripture to support it and much in nature to refute it. So I wonder what you have besides imagination to convince you.

I am not sure what the intent was either. I guess we are all free to speculate, as long as we understand the difference between speculation and a view based in scripture. However, speculation makes me nervous.

a cursed and fallen world

OldWiseGuy

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a cursed and fallen world

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