A couple more important flood discussions

Vance · Apr 13, 2005

In the other forum, Glenn has posted two more threads with strong evidence against a global flood:

http://www.christianforums.com/t141...s-yec-leaders-never-show-their-followers.html

and

http://www.christianforums.com/t1452477-meteor-craters-and-the-flood-year.html

I htink that those Creationists who accept a global flood should check them out.

Remus · Apr 13, 2005

Vance said:
And if you look back at what I have been saying all along, you will see that I am not even arguing against YEC'ism itself, much less against those who hold this view. I am simply asking that this particular view not be preached and presented as if it was the only possible view, without respecting and acknowledging that other devout and Bible-believing Christians believe differently.

.

Vance · Apr 13, 2005

What I meant was that what I have been saying in my calls for unity and in my seeking to find the common ground is that it is the PRESENTATION of YEC'ism and the dogmatic ideology that was dangerous, not the belief itself.

Now, I have also pointed out many times that in the confines of a forum for such a discussion (like this one), we SHOULD be debating the pros and cons of each position, scientifically and theologically.

We can debate all day long, and that can be useful and healthy. But in the end, we should not present our views, from either side, in a way that would be a stumbling block to another.

Remus · Apr 13, 2005

Have you noticed that you spend a lot of time clearing up 'misunderstandings'? Perhaps you should change your delivery.

But in the end, we should not present our views, from either side, in a way that would be a stumbling block to another.

Agreed. Can I expect you to stop trying to undermine people's faith then, or do I need to bring out some quotes of Creationists that have lost their faith due to people undermining the authority of the Bible?

Vance · Apr 13, 2005

Remus said:
Have you noticed that you spend a lot of time clearing up 'misunderstandings'? Perhaps you should change your delivery.

Possibly, but from the PM's and rep comments I get, from both posters and lurkers, YEC and TE and OEC, most seem to have little problem understanding my point. Here are some quotes just from what I have not yet deleted:

"Just thought I'd congratulate you on putting forward the TE point of view in such a lucid way. Keep up the good work! "

"Vance,

Lest it be forgotten in the heat of battle, I sincerely have been enjoying the discussions, and appreciate your candor, and respect your point of view even though we differ on some points. Above all, I am honored to participate with such an opponent that preserves, as you do, the ability to publically disagree without bringing disprepute on the name of Christ. It has been, to date, a joy and rare privilege to have been put to the test on my personal convictions in this fashion. I enjoy studying, expressing, debating and pondering our different perspectives - even though you've been wrong about creation - (Sorry.. I just could not resist)"

"I want to take this opportunity to let you know how much I enjoy our discussions. While we may be on polar opposite sides in some issues (like TE -vs- YEC), I am confident on the issue of salvation we likely agree and present a unified front to the lost. Meanwhile I want to make my personal commitment in all our discussions to maintain a civil and respectable tone, as you have already consistently demonstrated in high character."

[the last two from one of the more ardent YEC's on this forum]

" I'm saddened to see the way XXXXXXXX has responded and is responding to you. I hope you don't think all YECs are that way. (I am one..btw).

The Bible talks about not answering a fool according to his folly. You may want to consider this as to whether you should respond to some of his posts.

On the bright side, I've appreciated reading your posts and am currently considering a number of issues that you and others have raised regarding my current position."

"Thanks for your Christ-like approach to this issue"

"Thank you for all the knowledge that you share. Your posts always help me as I re-examine my faith and my interpretations of the Scriptures."

Remus said:
Agreed. Can I expect you to stop trying to undermine people's faith then, or do I need to bring out some quotes of Creationists that have lost their faith due to people undermining the authority of the Bible?

Again, the only way TE teaching can undermine someone's view of Scripture is if they are convinced of the YEC dogmatism that if evolution is true, Scripture must be false. Without this belief, evolution can not be a threat to someone's interpretation of Scripture.

We both think the other's approach can a threat to Scripture, so what is the best to do? Both of us affirm loud and clear when we discuss this matter that regardless of which position on origins is true, Scripture is correct and trustworthy. Isn't that best? I am willing to say that, how about you?

Alarum · Apr 13, 2005

Remus said:
Have you noticed that you spend a lot of time clearing up 'misunderstandings'? Perhaps you should change your delivery.

Agreed. Can I expect you to stop trying to undermine people's faith then, or do I need to bring out some quotes of Creationists that have lost their faith due to people undermining the authority of the Bible?

Okay, this sounds a little snarky - but if someone loses their faith because of evolution, how strong was it in the first place?

SBG · Apr 13, 2005

Alarum said:
Okay, this sounds a little snarky - but if someone loses their faith because of evolution, how strong was it in the first place?

But if someone loses their faith because of creation, how strong was it in the first place?

Vance · Apr 13, 2005

SBG said:
But if someone loses their faith because of creation, how strong was it in the first place?

That may be so, but why put up unecessary stumbling blocks? There enough issues that cause people trouble, so why insist upon another that is so unecessary? Why not do what we can to avoid this being an issue that will cause a problem?

Remus · Apr 13, 2005

Vance said:
Possibly, but from the PM's and rep comments I get, from both posters and lurkers, YEC and TE and OEC, most seem to have little problem understanding my point. Here are some quotes just from what I have not yet deleted:

It must be just me then. :rolls eyes:

Again, the only way TE teaching can undermine someone's view of Scripture is if they are convinced of the YEC dogmatism that if evolution is true, Scripture must be false. Without this belief, evolution can not be a threat to someone's interpretation of Scripture.

What you see as "dogmatism" I see as taking the Bible 'at its word'. Regardless, it's okay to undermine someone's faith because of this? I would say that that is very dangerous.

We both think the other's approach can a threat to Scripture, so what is the best to do?

You could do as I do, which is to allow people to make up their own minds. Whenever this subject comes up while witnessing, I point out the fact that there are Christians that believe in evolution, old earth, etc.... I don't force my opinion on people and nor do I attempt to undermine their natural thinking process. At the risk of sounding arrogant, I think my way is the better way.

Both of us affirm loud and clear when we discuss this matter that regardless of which position on origins is true, Scripture is correct and trustworthy. Isn't that best? I am willing to say that, how about you?

Oh, that would be best if it were accurate. Granted, you do say that "Scripture is correct and trustworthy". The problem is this is defeated by your attempts to undermine it. In the same breath that you say that the Scripture is correct, you strive to show that what is says couldn't possibly be true. Again, for someone that can't reconcile the Bible and evolution, this can prove to be very detrimental to their faith. This doesn't sound like the best approach to me.

Remus · Apr 13, 2005

Alarum said:
Okay, this sounds a little snarky - but if someone loses their faith because of evolution, how strong was it in the first place?

That's really hard to say Alarum. I don't have a good answer for you, but I will say this much. I would hate to be in the position of causing someone to doubt like this. To use Vance's common theme:

Matthew 18:6 NASB said:
but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

We all know that Vance speaks out about this, but then turns around and does the exact same thing. He doesn't seem to see this though.

Vance · Apr 13, 2005

Remus said:
It must be just me then. :rolls eyes:

Maybe not JUST you . . .

Remus said:
What you see as "dogmatism" I see as taking the Bible 'at its word'. Regardless, it's okay to undermine someone's faith because of this? I would say that that is very dangerous.

But that is the point, we should be presenting this issue in a way that does NOT undermine anyone's faith! As you say just below . . .

Remus said:
You could do as I do, which is to allow people to make up their own minds. Whenever this subject comes up while witnessing, I point out the fact that there are Christians that believe in evolution, old earth, etc.... I don't force my opinion on people and nor do I attempt to undermine their natural thinking process. At the risk of sounding arrogant, I think my way is the better way.

EXACTLY!!! You are basically quoting what I have said dozens of times on this forum, almost word for word, actually, about how this issue can be addressed when it is raised! When it comes up in the course of presenting the Gospel (which it does, unfortunately, with regularity), I tell them exactly that very thing: that Bible-believing Christians hold a wide variety of views on this issue, everywhere from strict young earth'ism to theistic evolution. But that almost every Christian who holds these various viewpoints continues to believe that Scripture is true and holy and God's direct message to Mankind.

The only thing that I have argued against is when a YEC will present this issue with specific dogmatism, saying that there can be no doubt that Scripture is contrary to any view of origins than young earth creationism. That if evolution is true, then Scripture is false, etc. Yes, many YEC's do this. They have done it on this forum regularly, they have done it my own church, from the pulpit and in the youth services (my cousin is the youth pastor, so I know what he is teaching them). When my father was a pastor, HE taught it this way (since then, he has reconsidered this position). They don't acknowledge what other Christians believe, and don't make sure the listener understands what you expressed in your statement above.

I agree with you completely that what you said above is the way to go, and I would hope that you would agree that what I describe in the paragraph above is NOT the way to do it.

Remus said:
Oh, that would be best if it were accurate. Granted, you do say that "Scripture is correct and trustworthy". The problem is this is defeated by your attempts to undermine it. In the same breath that you say that the Scripture is correct, you strive to show that what is says couldn't possibly be true. Again, for someone that can't reconcile the Bible and evolution, this can prove to be very detrimental to their faith. This doesn't sound like the best approach to me.

No, I don't say that "what it says couldn't possibly be true". That is a comment based on the absolute assumption that what you think it says is what it says. Yes, I agree the problem lies in those who can't reconcile the Bible and evolution. But who is teaching them this dichotomy? Not the TE's that is for sure. In places where YEC'ism is not taught from the cradle, Christians don't have this problem of accepting that Scripture can still be true even if evolution is true.

The best approach, I believe, is to start with what you say before. I have found that this resolves the issue almost every time. They can stick with whatever they accept or reject from the scientific evidence, and just be assured that the essential messages of Genesis are still true and correct.

Here on this forum, we can debate which is the better approach, but I have never had to get into this debate in detail with the non-believer. For them, the idea that they can accept Scripture without abandoning what they already accept from science, is a huge relief and opens the door for them to hear more! It is only Creationists themselves that want to fight about this out in the world.

Remus · Apr 13, 2005

Vance said:
The only thing that I have argued against is when a YEC will present this issue with specific dogmatism, saying that there can be no doubt that Scripture is contrary to any view of origins than young earth creationism.

Come on man! You can't keep saying this sort of thing. How many threads are there on the first page alone where you argue against the flood? Your not saying 'but it could be read like this', you are arguing that there's no way the flood could have happened as described in the Bible. This is far from arguing about dogmatism.

No, I don't say that "what it says couldn't possibly be true".

Okay fine, "say" was the wrong word to use.

That is a comment based on the absolute assumption that what you think it says is what it says.

If you want to continue to argue that the Bible can be read differently, I have no problem with that. I think that would be the kind of debate that is good. But when you start threads like the flood threads or try to make a case for the flood story being based on the Epic of Gilgamesh, you have a strong chance of making someone question their faith.

Yes, I agree the problem lies in those who can't reconcile the Bible and evolution. But who is teaching them this dichotomy? Not the TE's that is for sure. In places where YEC'ism is not taught from the cradle, Christians don't have this problem of accepting that Scripture can still be true even if evolution is true.

This is where you show your complete arrogance and lack of understanding. To simply say 'they shouldn't be taught that' misses a big portion of the people that came to that conclusion themselves. This is no more correct than to say that people reach the conclusion of evolution because that was how they were taught. Give people more credit.

Here on this forum, we can debate which is the better approach,

That's all well and good, but it should be clear to you now that some of your methods are at least as destructive as the methods that you speak out against. It's hard for me to believe that you can't see this.

Vance · Apr 13, 2005

This is a forum for Christians to debate the pros and cons of the various origins issues, including the age of the earth, whether a global flood occured, whether God used special creation or evolution. That is the specific point of having this forum in the first place. It is a place for such debate and discussion among Christians. There are basically two aspects to this debate, the scientific issues and the Biblical/theological issues. Creationists have long proposed their scientific arguments to support their view of what happened "in the beginning" and, thus, what the creation accounts actually are saying. Those Christians who are NOT Creationists, and believe that Scripture is NOT saying what the Creationists say it is saying, also point to the scientific evidence to support that position. That is the whole point of this forum: to hash out the scientific and theological issues involved in this debate.

The point of showing the evidence that a global flood did not occur, that the earth is old, that evolution has occurred, etc, is not to have people doubt Scripture, and I have never heard of a case in which that has happened. Instead, it is to prompt them to question whether their current interpretation of Scripture is accurate, whether it is the ONLY possible reading. If they are willing to consider that their might be another way to read Genesis, they will actually be STRONGER in their faith, since there is less likelihood that they would be swayed to by atheistic presentations of the evidence. And this HAS happened many, many times on this very forum over the years. People have commented that they are much stronger in their faith in the validity of Scripture once they accepted that their previous strict literalism is not the only way to read it.

Both TE and YEC's can provide testimonials about how that particular teaching helped strengthen their faith, all well and good. But I have never once seen anyone state that they began to doubt their faith due to TE teachings. The same can't be said for YEC'ism, though, as I have shown in great detail.

You say that the presentation of the TE point of view can cause damage to someone's faith, but never once has anyone said this has happened to them, but many have said that the YEC teaching caused them many faith problems.

But getting back to your point about what we SHOULD be saying in our presentation of the Gospel if it comes up: what you say above sounds very similar to what I suggest in my "What is wrong with just saying" thread, no?

Remus · Apr 13, 2005

Ive said everything there is to say. Anything else would be repetitious. Ill pray that when God deals with you, that He doesnt do it too harshly. Understand that I can no longer consider you a brother in Christ, not that it'll matter to you.

Vance · Apr 13, 2005

Remus said:
Ive said everything there is to say. Anything else would be repetitious. Ill pray that when God deals with you, that He doesnt do it too harshly. Understand that I can no longer consider you a brother in Christ, not that it'll matter to you.

But there is where your judgmentalism is leading you astray. I seek the Spirit's guidance and wisdom every time I log onto these forums. In my daily devotions and prayer time, I seek the face of God to guide and strengthen me in all my endeavors, including these discussions. I have a deep and abiding peace that God is behind what I am doing, that He fully approves of how I am conducting myself and the position I am taking. I am not perfect, and occasionally (as when people question by faith or devotion to the cause of Christ), I lose my temper, but that is fairly rare. As seen by the comments I posted earlier (which is merely a sampling of many, many more of the same over the long time I have been here), there is good fruit being borne.

Regardless of your very personal attacks, however, I will still consider you a brother in Christ.

Remus · Apr 13, 2005

Vance said:
But there is where your judgmentalism is leading you astray.

I am only passing on the message that God gave me to give you. If you refuse to listen, then there's nothing more I can do and I must leave it in God's hands.

Vance · Apr 13, 2005

Remus said:
I am only passing on the message that God gave me to give you. If you refuse to listen, then there's nothing more I can do and I must leave it in God's hands.

Well, then, God is giving you and I conflicting messages. All I can do is go with what God is telling me.

mhess13 · Apr 13, 2005

Vance said:
Possibly, but from the PM's and rep comments I get, from both posters and lurkers, YEC and TE and OEC, most seem to have little problem understanding my point. Here are some quotes just from what I have not yet deleted:

"Just thought I'd congratulate you on putting forward the TE point of view in such a lucid way. Keep up the good work! "

"Vance,

Lest it be forgotten in the heat of battle, I sincerely have been enjoying the discussions, and appreciate your candor, and respect your point of view even though we differ on some points. Above all, I am honored to participate with such an opponent that preserves, as you do, the ability to publically disagree without bringing disprepute on the name of Christ. It has been, to date, a joy and rare privilege to have been put to the test on my personal convictions in this fashion. I enjoy studying, expressing, debating and pondering our different perspectives - even though you've been wrong about creation - (Sorry.. I just could not resist)"

"I want to take this opportunity to let you know how much I enjoy our discussions. While we may be on polar opposite sides in some issues (like TE -vs- YEC), I am confident on the issue of salvation we likely agree and present a unified front to the lost. Meanwhile I want to make my personal commitment in all our discussions to maintain a civil and respectable tone, as you have already consistently demonstrated in high character."

[the last two from one of the more ardent YEC's on this forum]

" I'm saddened to see the way XXXXXXXX has responded and is responding to you. I hope you don't think all YECs are that way. (I am one..btw).

The Bible talks about not answering a fool according to his folly. You may want to consider this as to whether you should respond to some of his posts.

On the bright side, I've appreciated reading your posts and am currently considering a number of issues that you and others have raised regarding my current position."

"Thanks for your Christ-like approach to this issue"

"Thank you for all the knowledge that you share. Your posts always help me as I re-examine my faith and my interpretations of the Scriptures."

Again, the only way TE teaching can undermine someone's view of Scripture is if they are convinced of the YEC dogmatism that if evolution is true, Scripture must be false. Without this belief, evolution can not be a threat to someone's interpretation of Scripture.

We both think the other's approach can a threat to Scripture, so what is the best to do? Both of us affirm loud and clear when we discuss this matter that regardless of which position on origins is true, Scripture is correct and trustworthy. Isn't that best? I am willing to say that, how about you?

WOW VANCE!!!!!!!!! What an awesome Christlike, MODEST guy you are! Now look at some the the PMs I have received:

hess,
"You are not only the best thing since sliced bread, You are also the best-looking thing as well!"

mhess13,
"you are a fountain of wisdom"

hess,
"God bless you, you are in my prayers daily. I'd be lost without your insight"

mhess,
Your Christlike approach gives hope to us all. You are quite an inspiration"

hess,
"you are a breath of fresh air"

mhess,
"never have I seen such a handsome man. Your wife is a lucky woman indeed"

Mhess,
"good looking, smart, wonderful AND Bible-believing...WOW...will you marry me?"

Hess,
"I've started a fan club in honor of you and we are swamped with calls and letters. We need those autographed pictures ASAP"

hess,
"you are my favorite guy on the forums"

Hess,
"if you were any wiser, you'd be deity!"

hess,
"you're the guy I love to hate. You're always proving me wrong!"

hess,
"boy, you are fine. mmmmmmm mmmmmmm, you got it going on"

hess,
"you good-looking heartbreaker you. I can't decide what your dominant trait is. Those rugged good looks or your wisdom"

"Darnit hess, you are right all the time!"

"hess, you daily cause me to re-examine my beliefs....thanks"

SBG · Apr 13, 2005

that is hilarious!!!!

Vance · Apr 13, 2005

I think your post speaks for itself.

A couple more important flood discussions

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