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To my particular knowledge as an Orthodox Christian,, yes. I am particularly aware of what happens in Eastern and Oriental Orthodoxy, which I am referring to in the collective (someone less ecumenically minded would not do this).
Of course, this is not exclusive to Orthodoxy - I am aware in this case of our Roman Catholic brethren report some similar occurrences, albeit there are some stylistic differences between what the Roman Catholics reported that I was made aware of and what was reported in our case, but not being a Roman Catholic I can’t comment on the extent of the similarity, but a great many denominations do not report this occurring, so in those denomination where this phenomenon is not reported, it presumably does not exist or is else ignored.
Indeed I have been in some churches where I feel confident that if what was reported in the Orthodox Church was reported, I don’t think they would regard such a report with credulity or interpret it as a holy occurrence.
On the one hand, by promoting the study of Patristics, iconography, sacramental theology, increased fasting and almsgiving, the veneration of the Blessed Virgin Mary, a belief in the Real Presence, and frequent partaking of the Eucharist and frequent sacramental confession.
On the other hand, by discouraging anti-Catholic prejudice, calling out those who disseminate anti-Catholic polemics such as the offensive tracts of Jack Chick, and other forms of anti-Catholic bigotry, which does not just lead to discrimination against Catholics but against Anglicans, Lutherans, Methodists, and Orthodox and anyone else who can be accused of what Thomas Jefferson called “priestcraft” and what others call “Popery.” In particular, it must be pointed out to anti-Catholics how their beliefs are predicated upon a false dichotomy, a logical fallacy, and they must be shown the real harm the propagation of anti-Catholic falsehoods is causing, for example, in the form of Islamic violence against Orthodox and Anglican Christians in Syria and Pakistan.
Hi Mark. Haven’t talk to you in a while. Hope you are well.Incorrect. First, one does not have to accept the dogma of transubstantiation to hold a belief in the bread and wine being the real presence of Christ's very body and blood, given for us to eat and drink. Lutherans and Orthodox take the view that it is a mystery and can not be explained by employing human reason. It just is. Your definition is disregards the historic definition. Christ is omnipresent; but is physically present in the Eucharist.
I don't see how that unity includes Protestants unless they become Orthodox (or some variation thereof).
Unfortunately, I'm beginning to see more clearly that because of the particular assumptions each denomination often unquestionably holds, my naive hope for a broader sense (expectation?) of Christian Unity is not forthcoming in the very near future.
The unity of the Universal church is in the Holy Spirit. No congregation can claim Him as exclusively their possession.Thank you for answering. Do you really think the suggestion in the first paragraph will promote unity? What I mean is, if those are the things that make for unity, I don't see how that unity includes Protestants unless they become Orthodox (or some variation thereof).
I agree that anti-Catholic prejudice is not good or helpful. What do you think about anti-Protestant prejudice?
Yeah, clearly you're right. Well, at least we know.
"We believe" is a result of Mere Christianity being overcomplicated by human rules and traditions.Great, until we who are still in the flesh become triumphant, "We believe..."
Practically speaking, you're probably right.Lol! I'd so very much wish to be proven wrong in this case. But, it is what it is, and it is what it is for human reasons more or less, despite claims to the contrary.
I like what you're saying here and one would think that this would be the case. But certain events in the long history of the Christian faith show that having the same answer is often difficult to come by.Practically speaking, you're probably right.
BUT, we all believe the same Gospel. And I've said it before, if Christians faced persecution for their beliefs; if there was a man standing over us with a gun saying, "are you a Christian, yes or no?", we'd have no time to argue baptism, ordination, communion, styles of worship etc. There'd also be no point at all in saying, "yes, and we are the true church and those over there aren't."
We in the West are not facing persecution - but the heart of the Gospel is "who do you say that I am?" Mark 8:29.
I am confident that pretty much everyone here would have the same answer.
Surely a belief in Jesus as Saviour and Lord has to be the bottom line for unity?
I've seen a whole lot of what could be called anti-Protestant prejudice being displayed according to the paradigm you're employing. Even prejudice within Protestantism as seen in Mainline vs Evangelical. Along with "popery" we have "fundie". And I seriously doubt Islamic extremists in Syria and Pakistan are reading Chick tracts or going by fundamentalist Protestant points of view. I think it has more to do with most of the Christians in those areas happening to be Orthodox and Anglican. Meaning Baptists and Pentecostals would fare no better.On the one hand, by promoting the study of Patristics, iconography, sacramental theology, increased fasting and almsgiving, the veneration of the Blessed Virgin Mary, a belief in the Real Presence, and frequent partaking of the Eucharist and frequent sacramental confession.
On the other hand, by discouraging anti-Catholic prejudice, calling out those who disseminate anti-Catholic polemics such as the offensive tracts of Jack Chick, and other forms of anti-Catholic bigotry, which does not just lead to discrimination against Catholics but against Anglicans, Lutherans, Methodists, and Orthodox and anyone else who can be accused of what Thomas Jefferson called “priestcraft” and what others call “Popery.” In particular, it must be pointed out to anti-Catholics how their beliefs are predicated upon a false dichotomy, a logical fallacy, and they must be shown the real harm the propagation of anti-Catholic falsehoods is causing, for example, in the form of Islamic violence against Orthodox and Anglican Christians in Syria and Pakistan.
Which explains why we are not in fellowship with them. We would gladly welcome them into fellowship if they accepted the unaltered 1580 edition of the Book of Concord.So, my takeaway from your discussion here is that the RCC view on Unity is contingent upon full comprehension and subscription to the RCC magisterial pronouncements.
Alright then. That was an interesting discussion.
Which explains why we are not in fellowship with them. We would gladly welcome them into fellowship if they accepted the unaltered 1580 edition of the Book of Concord.
You missed the point; sacrificial acts are what we do. The Sacraments, particularly Baptism, the Eucharist and Confession and Holy absolution are solely about what God does for us. We can never be good enough to receive His body and blood, it is only through faith driven by a Contrite heart that we can truly benefit from the "medicine of eternal life" that is given in the Sacraments.Jesus said: God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
I do believe there is judgment at the cup, and it hinges upon whether my worship of God's Spirit is pure and sincere in spirit. To that end, a sincere worship must be drawn out of me by the object of worship, through revelation, and therefore it's not at my discretion.
Subsequently, I have a testimony that it's the self-sacrificing Love incarnate that is the sacred thing being acknowledged and reverenced once the bread and wine has been consecrated. Moreover, this Love that I trust is the incorruptible Eternal Spirit of God, is marked by the horrific suffering the Christ endured in his flesh, and the shedding of his blood, for us.
So, I when I hear these sentiments ---> And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. ---> I remember his suffering death for me.
Hence His Incorruptible Love is the substantive Spirit and the substantive presence in the eucharistia (thanksgiving). Therefore, even though I see it as spiritual food which draws out true worship, I don't believe the universal church in unity through the Holy Spirit would ever count the suffering of Jesus and his subsequent death on the cross as merely symbolic.
Maybe the issue is you don't read books. LOLJust what everyone needs---yet another "official" book of propriety and orthodoxy. Yay!.... Keep'em coming, folks! Keep'em coming!
Our man-made rules vs your man-made rules! Just as Jesus intendedJust what everyone needs---yet another "official" book of propriety and orthodoxy. Yay!.... Keep'em coming, folks! Keep'em coming!
Except that our Lord and the the Apostles caution us that eating and drinking His body and blood un an unworthy manner can be both spiritually and physically harmful. So this is why these Churches and the Confessional Lutherans attach so much importance to "gatekeeping" as you call it. We can not see inside the hearts of those who approach our altars, but we at least know those who have been instructed, and should have at least a basic understanding.
If you want to commune with us, we provide "free" instruction. If you find yourself in agreement with our teachings regarding this, and the other doctrines of the Church, you may be confirmed and join us in the fullness of the Bibles teaching. If you find you do not or can not agree with us, then, why would you want to commune with us?
Henry, good to see you and good to be here, don't worry, I won't be apologizing for mine either. As I get older, I have became more resolute in my faith and more steadfastly confessional Lutheran; the faith my ancestors suffered for in Europe and that which they built and maintained here in the new world. I have witnessed (physical and not just spiritual) healing through the eucharist, both personally and in others who had made their peace with God. I have also witnessed how the Eucharist affected one who was demonically possessed. My faith in Christ and the Holy Sacrament is unwavering.Hi Mark. Haven’t talk to you in a while. Hope you are well.
My belief in real presence is spiritual not physical. But my argument against the Justin Martyr quote was debating transubstantiation not real presence. I don’t in any way apologize for my beliefs and will remain steadfast believing that close communion is not biblical and elitist because it divides the body of Christ.
Sure. Right.The warning you refer to is to the consequence of not 'rightly dividing the body of Christ'.
'And so let him eat' after self examination is about realising that one is invited to participate despite ones failings because of the mercy of Jesus.
'Rightly dividing the Body of Christ' then is not only accepting ones self despite failures but seeing all of His body in the same way - in fact unity is impossible without this humbling revelation, and subsequently dividing rather than unifying others.
So to deny the invitation of Jesus to chosen few for any reason is a serious and sadly erroneous attitude with serious consequences.
This general attitude of inclusion rather than exclusion agrees with the sentiment of Jesus when He accepted the ministry of others in His Name who were not in the immediate fellowship.
I doubt you believe in Divine InspirationOur man-made rules vs your man-made rules! Just as Jesus intended
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