A conversation about unity.

Valletta · Saturday at 10:45 PM

ozso said:
The church has been reshaped and morphed by human design. Just like the 7 churches in Revelation. It's not the church of the 1st century that's been changed by human design, but rather the church up to the 5th century. And the church is spiritual, not cultural. Human culture and ideology change over time. But the spiritual will of God doesn't. There's absolutely no spiritual reason why the church should have changed so much over time. That's not God's will and design at play. It's the will and design of man at play.

Jesus remains the focus of the Catholic Church. His Real Presence has been celebrated in the mass now for almost 2000 years. There were additions, the 73 books of the Bible were not decided upon by the Catholic Church until the late 300s. Before that there were variances as to what could be used for readings (what was Holy Scripture) at the mass. Catholic churches were not built until from ten to twenty years after Constantine allowed freedom of religion, the church buildings were new. So there were natural changes over time.

ozso · Saturday at 11:24 PM

Valletta said:
Jesus remains the focus of the Catholic Church. His Real Presence has been celebrated in the mass now for almost 2000 years.

Jesus being the focus is what the church is all about and that's what brings about unity. We are united in Christ. The rest is sideline disagreement.

Valletta said:
There were additions, the 73 books of the Bible were not decided upon by the Catholic Church until the late 300s. Before that there were variances as to what could be used for readings (what was Holy Scripture) at the mass. Catholic churches were not built until from ten to twenty years after Constantine allowed freedom of religion, the church buildings were new. So there were natural changes over time.

There are added teachings, doctrines, and practices which are man-made contrivances. That doesn't necessarily make them wrong. Hopefully most are good, whereas others are bad. But either way they should be recognized as being man-made.

Strong in Him · Sunday at 1:34 AM

ozso said:
Jesus being the focus is what the church is all about and that's what brings about unity. We are united in Christ. The rest is sideline disagreement.

He is, or should be, the source of all unity.

As I've said before, there is only one Gospel.
To suggest that other Christians have only part of the Gospel, and therefore the truth, is not helpful.

The Liturgist · Sunday at 5:59 AM

Xeno.of.athens said:
The Catholic Church recognises the Orthodox Churches as true particular Churches, possessing valid sacraments—especially the Eucharist and Holy Orders—and maintaining apostolic succession. Their liturgical richness, theological depth, and fidelity to the early Councils are deeply respected. Although full communion has not yet been restored, the Catholic Church affirms that the Orthodox tradition remains profoundly close in faith and practice. As the Second Vatican Council taught, the celebration of the Eucharist in these Churches truly builds up the Church of God (Unitatis Redintegratio, §15).

One is encouraged to view Orthodox Christianity not as a rival, but as a noble sibling in Christ. The Catholic Church prays and works for the restoration of full unity, grounded in truth and charity. While certain doctrinal differences—such as the role of the Pope and some theological expressions—remain unresolved, the sanctity and sincerity of Orthodox faith are never in doubt. As Pope Saint John Paul II expressed, the Church longs to “breathe with both lungs,” East and West, in the hope of visible unity under Christ.

Thank you for stating that. The recent ecumenical relationship between us and our Catholic brethren has been a source of great joy for myself and many Orthodox Christians.

The Liturgist · Sunday at 6:03 AM

PloverWing said:
Would you be willing to say something about the Orthodox now?

In post #5, you mentioned "the one church that Jesus Christ founded and has sustained from the beginning". Do you see the Orthodox as part of this one church?

In post #1, you said that "unity must be more than doctrinal harmony—it must be sacramental and hierarchical, as instituted by Christ and perpetuated through apostolic succession." Do you see the Orthodox churches as being sacramental, hierarchical, instituted by Christ, and perpetuated through apostolic succession?

PloverWing said:
I was trying to be brief in my summary, but it looks like I was too brief.

I fully agree that Christianity has grown and developed over the years, that this is something to be expected in any religion, and that this growth is largely a good thing. It's a mix of the Holy Spirit's guidance, and changes in human culture, and (alas) human sinfulness, but there's more good than bad, and there's much that's wonderful about Christianity in its present form. I am not trying to freeze the church into its 1st-century form. (I know that some Christians try to do that, but I'm not one of them.)

Here's what I was trying to describe: You seem to say that the Catholic church has a continuity with the 1st-century church in a way that Orthodox churches do not. I think you've been saying that the Catholic church is the church Jesus founded, and that the Orthodox churches are not the church Jesus founded. Have I understood you correctly?

Forgive me, but it looks like you were trying to persuade a Roman Catholic member, and a close personal friend of myself I might add, into saying negative things about the Orthodox. If I am mistaken, do forgive me. I just really don’t see the point in prompting members to criticize other denominations, particularly denominations that have close relations with theirs.

2PhiloVoid · Sunday at 6:59 AM

Valletta said:
Yes, Copernicus found most rejected his ideas. Copernicus dedicated his theory to the pope and the pope accepted it as a theory.

Let's not sugar coat what transpired with Copernicus by stopping the story on Copernicus short...................................

“There may be babblers, wholly ignorant of mathematics, who dare to condemn my hypothesis, upon the authority of some part of the Bible twisted to suit their purpose. I value them not, and scorn their unfounded judgment.” -- Nicolaus Copernicus

PloverWing · Sunday at 8:00 AM

@Xeno.of.athens : I originally understood your main point in this thread as the assertion that the Catholic church is superior to all other churches, because it's the church that Jesus founded and the other churches are not. (I have heard this stated by Catholics in the past, on CF and elsewhere.) But now, in light of your comments about Orthodoxy, I'm wondering if I misunderstood your main point.

Have you, instead, been trying to say this?: It is important for the church to be an in-person, structured community, and not just the abstract idea of "all followers of Jesus".

If that's what you've been trying to say, I mostly agree with you. (I still maintain that the community is broken, post-1054, but the community is important nonetheless.)

PloverWing · Sunday at 8:19 AM

The Liturgist said:
Forgive me, but it looks like you were trying to persuade a Roman Catholic member, and a close personal friend of myself I might add, into saying negative things about the Orthodox. If I am mistaken, do forgive me. I just really don’t see the point in prompting members to criticize other denominations, particularly denominations that have close relations with theirs.

Not at all. I thought @Xeno.of.athens had been condemning the Orthodox already, along with Protestants, for the entire 16 screenfuls of this thread. I now believe I may have misunderstood what he was trying to say. See my post immediately above (#307).

ozso · Sunday at 8:34 AM

Pope Leo IX and the Roman Catholic Church excommunicated the Orthodox Church in 1054.

2PhiloVoid · Sunday at 8:37 AM

PloverWing said:
@Xeno.of.athens : I originally understood your main point in this thread as the assertion that the Catholic church is superior to all other churches, because it's the church that Jesus founded and the other churches are not. (I have heard this stated by Catholics in the past, on CF and elsewhere.) But now, in light of your comments about Orthodoxy, I'm wondering if I misunderstood your main point.

Have you, instead, been trying to say this?: It is important for the church to be an in-person, structured community, and not just the abstract idea of "all followers of Jesus".

If that's what you've been trying to say, I mostly agree with you. (I still maintain that the community is broken, post-1054, but the community is important nonetheless.)

.... the caveat is that there's still this little bit that he said back up in post #52. So, depending on how strictly those doctrinal articulations are, and IF the RCC is correct, then I might not make it to eternal life.

That's what I'm hearing. Of course, it'd be great if all I need to do is get my hearing aid checked and know that I misconstrued all that I heard.

ozso · Sunday at 8:51 AM

2PhiloVoid said:
.... the caveat is that there's still this little bit that he said back up in post #52. So, depending on how strictly those doctrinal articulations are, and IF the RCC is correct, then I might not make it to eternal life.

That's what I'm hearing. Of course, it'd be great if all I need to do is get my hearing aid checked and know that I misconstrued all that I heard.

The RCC won't outright say only active membership in the RCC leads to salvation. But it's lurking there all the same. Probably mostly to frighten members of the RCC.

Xeno.of.athens · Sunday at 8:58 AM

PloverWing said:
@Xeno.of.athens : I originally understood your main point in this thread as the assertion that the Catholic church is superior to all other churches, because it's the church that Jesus founded and the other churches are not. (I have heard this stated by Catholics in the past, on CF and elsewhere.) But now, in light of your comments about Orthodoxy, I'm wondering if I misunderstood your main point.

Yes, you appear to have misunderstood it.

PloverWing said:
Have you, instead, been trying to say this?: It is important for the church to be an in-person, structured community, and not just the abstract idea of "all followers of Jesus".

No, that is not what I have been saying nor what I have attempted to say.

PloverWing said:
If that's what you've been trying to say, I mostly agree with you. (I still maintain that the community is broken, post-1054, but the community is important nonetheless.)

Communion is broken, that is undisputed.

PloverWing · Sunday at 11:22 AM

Xeno.of.athens said:
Yes, you appear to have misunderstood it.

No, that is not what I have been saying nor what I have attempted to say.

Communion is broken, that is undisputed.

Okay, so we've had some serious miscommunication.

You've confirmed that my original understanding was mistaken. I think you're saying that my second attempt at understanding ("It is important for the church to be an in-person, structured community, and not just the abstract idea of 'all followers of Jesus') is also mistaken.

Can you restate your main thesis, perhaps using different words from the phrasing of the OP, so that I can understand you better? Until we agree on what we're actually talking about, we're not going to get anywhere.

Xeno.of.athens · Sunday at 12:01 PM

PloverWing said:
Okay, so we've had some serious miscommunication.

You've confirmed that my original understanding was mistaken. I think you're saying that my second attempt at understanding ("It is important for the church to be an in-person, structured community, and not just the abstract idea of 'all followers of Jesus') is also mistaken.

Can you restate your main thesis, perhaps using different words from the phrasing of the OP, so that I can understand you better? Until we agree on what we're actually talking about, we're not going to get anywhere.

I do not know what is unclear in the OP. You need to tell me what you do not understand.

PloverWing · Sunday at 12:46 PM

Xeno.of.athens said:
I do not know what is unclear in the OP. You need to tell me what you do not understand.

My two guesses in post #307 are my two best attempts to understand what you are saying in the OP. You've said that both of my guesses are wrong. I don't have a third guess to offer. Thus, what I do not understand is your thesis statement in this thread.

You are trying to tell us something about your vision of Christian unity. What are you trying to tell us? Genuinely, I don't know.

2PhiloVoid · Sunday at 1:12 PM

PloverWing said:
My two guesses in post #307 are my two best attempts to understand what you are saying in the OP. You've said that both of my guesses are wrong. I don't have a third guess to offer. Thus, what I do not understand is your thesis statement in this thread.

You are trying to tell us something about your vision of Christian unity. What are you trying to tell us? Genuinely, I don't know.

To be fair, his OP didn't actually request interaction from interlocutors here; he merely shared part of his discussion with a family member and what it means to him.

Valletta · Sunday at 4:32 PM

ozso said:
The RCC won't outright say only active membership in the RCC leads to salvation. But it's lurking there all the same. Probably mostly to frighten members of the RCC.

Please try and put the anti-Catholicism you have been taught aside in these discussions.

Xeno.of.athens · Sunday at 4:33 PM

PloverWing said:
My two guesses in post #307 are my two best attempts to understand what you are saying in the OP. You've said that both of my guesses are wrong. I don't have a third guess to offer. Thus, what I do not understand is your thesis statement in this thread.

You are trying to tell us something about your vision of Christian unity. What are you trying to tell us? Genuinely, I don't know.

I am not trying to tell you about my vision of unity. I am an individual and I have no authority to conduct ecumenical dialogue on behalf of the Catholic Church. What the OP presents is the Catholic Church's public statements about what is needed for unity. Specifically what is needed is

unity in doctrine
unity in sacraments
unity in episcopal governance and apostolic succession.

Without the first (unity in doctrine) there can be no commonality in teaching, preaching, theology, and there can be no cooperation in any endeavour that requires shared doctrine.

Without the second (unity in sacraments) we can have no unity in practice.

Without the third (unity in governance) there can be no unity in parish life and all that flows from it, including discipline.

I hope that clarifies whatever it was you were having difficulty with.

Xeno.of.athens · Sunday at 4:35 PM

ozso said:
The RCC won't outright say only active membership in the RCC leads to salvation. But it's lurking there all the same. Probably mostly to frighten members of the RCC.

When I read the above I thought it looked like something to which no reasonable reply can be given because it appears to be paranoid conspiracy rather than anything that has facts and genuine sources behind it.

PloverWing · Sunday at 5:44 PM

Xeno.of.athens said:
I hope that clarifies whatever it was you were having difficulty with.

Okay, that's much clearer. Thanks.

A conversation about unity.

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