A CONTRADICTION Romans vs. James?

[Tychicum]

(From the book 'A Study on Romans' ... by CR Stam)


In Rom. 4:3-5 Paul clearly declares that men are justified by faith alone, without
works, but James 2:24 states with equal clarity:

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

Are these statements actually contradictory, or only apparently so? Let us see.

It has been explained that the recurrence of the words "ye see," in James'
argument, indicates that he refers to proof before men that those who profess
justifying faith actually have it. But Abraham did not offer Isaac before men, nor
does this argument explain how men are justified by works, as James 2:24
states. Surely both Romans 4 and James 2 refer to justification by God, but one
says that this is received by faith only while the other says it is gained “by works,
and not by faith only."

We believe that the answer to this seeming contradiction is a dispensational
one, and with this in view let us note several background comparisons:

The writer in the first place is Paul; in the second place it is James. Paul
addresses Gentiles (Rom. 11:13), while James writes to "the twelve tribes [of
Israel] which are scattered abroad" (Jas. 1:1). Paul deals with Abraham before
his circumcision; James deals with him after his circumcision (as the father of the
Hebrew race). Paul quotes from Gen. 15:6 to prove his point; James cites Gen.
22:1-18. Paul mentions only Abraham's acceptance of the good news
concerning his seed (Gen. 15:4-6); James deals with his faith in a severe test
(Gen. 22:16-18). These are significant differences.
With these differences in view we quote from one of our former writings:

"Faith [will] most assuredly approach God in God's way at any time, and to
seek to gain acceptance with Him in any other way would, of course, be
unbelief and self-will. Thus, while works never did or could save as such,
they did once save as expressions of faith."

"When God says, 'Offer an animal in sacrifice and I will accept you,' what will
faith do? Faith will offer an animal in sacrifice, of course. Abel did this and
was accepted, not because the blood of beasts can take away sins, but
because he approached God in God's way. This is 'the obedience of faith.'
"In the case of Cain we have a clear indication that God is not satisfied with
mere works as such, for Cain offered a more attractive-looking sacrifice than
Abel, but was rejected because he did not bring the sacrifice which God had
required (Gen. 4:5).

"When God says, 'Build an ark and I will save you and yours from the flood,'
what will faith do? Faith will build an ark, of course. And when Noah did this
he showed his faith in God and 'became an heir of the righteousness which is
by faith.'

"When God says, 'Obey My voice indeed and you will be Mine,' what will
faith do? Faith will try earnestly to obey. You say: But they could not obey
perfectly, therefore would be rejected by God. We reply that we have already
proved that works in themselves cannot save. It was only as Israelites
recognized the Law as the Word of God to them and therefore sought to obey
it that they were saved. Such an effort to keep the Law represented 'the
obedience of faith.'

"When God says, 'Repent and be baptized for the remission of sins,' what
will faith do? Just one thing: repent and be baptized. We know that oceans
of water cannot wash away one sin, yet when John the Baptist and Peter
preached repentance and baptism for remission, not one of their hearers
would have interpreted their words to mean: 'Trust in the death of Christ for
salvation.' Indeed, when God required water baptism for salvation the only
way to manifest faith was to be baptized, and those who refused to do so were
condemned for their unbelief:

"But the Pharisees and lawyers REJECTED THE COUNSEL OF GOD
AGAINST THEMSELVES, BEING NOT BAPTIZED OF HIM" (Luke 7:30).

"But when God says, 'BUT NOW the righteousness of God without the law is
manifested' (Rom. 3:21); "To him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that
justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness' (Rom. 4:5) .... what
will faith do? Faith will say, 'This is the most wonderful offer ever made by God
to man. I cannot refuse it. I will trust Christ as my Savior and accept salvation
as the free gift of God's grace' " (Things That Differ, Pp. 22,42,43).

This we believe is the answer to the seeming contradiction between Romans
4:5 and James 2:24. The Epistle of James will fit into God's dispensational plan
just where it is found in the canon of Scripture: after the Pauline dispensation.

When "the dispensation of the grace of God" has run its course God will again
begin dealing with "the twelve tribes of Israel," now "scattered abroad." In that
day the "gospel of the kingdom" will again be proclaimed (Matt. 24:14) and
works will again be included in the terms of salvation as they were when our
Lord was on earth (Mark 1:4; Luke 7:29,30; 18:18-22; et al). Does this mean
that works will be efficacious in themselves? No. They will avail only as the
expression and evidence of faith as, indeed, James clearly teaches (Jas. 2:18-
26).


†

 

[Dispy]

AMEN to what you had posted. Really great reading.

Tracy Plessinger at http://www.gracealive.us/jamesvspaul.html also has an excellent article on James vs. Paul. I will post a portion of it that pertains to salvation. It also includes explains how Martin Luther considered the book of James "the book of straw," James vs John on prayer, and healing.

(SNIP)

James vs. Paul; Salvation
The most serious area of disagreement between James and Paul is their explanation of salvation. James indicates that good works must be added to faith to produce salvation.

Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? James 2:17-20

Paul gives a different explanation of salvation. Paul not only teaches that works are unnecessary for salvation, he specifically excludes works from the salvation process.

Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Romans 4:4,5

These two explanations of salvation are in conflict. What makes the disagreement between Paul and James even more perplexing is that both men point to Abraham as a validation of their teaching.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? James 2: 21,22

For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Romans 4:2,3

This difference is answered by understanding that James was describing the salvation requirements for his Jewish audience (the circumcision), while Paul was describing the salvation requirements for his Gentile audience (the uncircumcision). They each point to Abraham as an example, but use different events from Abraham's life to support their teaching.

Paul cites an event recorded in Genesis 15.

And he [God] brought him [Abraham] forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. Genesis 15:5,6

James cites an event recorded in Genesis 22.

And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am. And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of. Genesis 22:1,2

Paul points to a time when Abraham's faith required him to do nothing. He was simply to wait for the promised seed. In fact, when Abraham tried to help God's plan along, the results were disastrous. (See Genesis 16) James, on the other hand, points to a time when Abraham's faith required him to do something. He had to physically take his son into Moriah and offer him as a sacrifice to the Lord. The principle here is if God says "don't do," then faith doesn't do. If God says "do," then faith does. To the circumcision God said "do." To the uncircumcision, he said, "don't do." This is why Paul used two different terms when describing the faith of the circumcision and the uncircumcision.

Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. Romans 3:29,30

It is significant that between the two events referred to above, another very important event took place in Abraham's life. In Genesis 17, God instituted circumcision as a sign of the Abrahamic Covenant. Paul uses Abraham in uncircumcision as an example of justification by faith without the works of the law. James uses Abraham in circumcision as an example of justification by faith plus the works of the law. Paul discusses and explains this dual fatherhood of Abraham in detail in the fourth chapter of Romans.

When we rightly divide the Word of Truth, the conflict between James and Paul concerning salvation is easily resolved.

(SNIP)

James vs. Paul

We have entitled this article "James vs. Paul". However, the conflict between James and Paul is not really a conflict at all. Each man gave the instructions that God intended for the particular group of people to whom they ministered. In order to understand and appreciate that fact, we must rightly divide the Word of Truth.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

 

[Apollos1]

I re-read Romans 4 to make certain I knew what it said. Unfortunately for the "faith only" or "faith alone" crowd those words can not be found in that passage.

The expression "faith alone" is NEVER found in scripture!!

The context of Romans 4 is often abused as is James 2 when compared with it.

I have been short of free time lately but perhaps I can type something up to help with this gross misunderstanding of Romans 4 this weekend.

But the faith that saves is the faith that acts!
Do nothing believers can expect just that from God...

NOTHING !!!

 

[Tychicum]

I re-read Romans 4 to make certain I knew what it said. Unfortunately for the "faith only" or "faith alone" crowd those words can not be found in that passage.

The expression "faith alone" is NEVER found in scripture!!

The context of Romans 4 is often abused as is James 2 when compared with it.

I have been short of free time lately but perhaps I can type something up to help with this gross misunderstanding of Romans 4 this weekend.

But the faith that saves is the faith that acts!
Do nothing believers can expect just that from God...

NOTHING !!!

Interesting point of view ... Apollos.

Merit based salvation?

OK.

Do you keep the whole of the Law? Many have tried ... to my knowledge only one has done it successfully.

My position is fairly straight forward.


SOLA GRATIA
SOLA FIDE
SOLA CHRISTOS
SOLA SCRIPTURA
SOLI DEO GLORIA


SOLA GRATIA means "by Divine Grace alone". That means that people cannot "earn" their way into Heaven by "Good Works" but are entirely dependent on the Generosity and Grace of God for it

SOLA FIDE means "by Faith alone". Since people can not actively "earn" their way into Heaven, this statement is necessary to describe exactly what requirement actually applies to us. It essentially says that we each must totally accept that the Lord is God, that He is the Only God, and that the person recognizes His Atonement as freeing mankind to be able to accept Him. When a person believes, it fulfills the human responsibility.

SOLA CHRISTOS means "Christ Alone". Doctrine that there is no salvation outside Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is the promised messiah that alone can redeem God’s elect through his pure and perfect blood, which was shed on the cross to appease the wrath of almighty God.

SOLA SCRIPTURA means "by the Bible alone". Rather than trusting any human to provide information about important religious information, this statement means to ONLY rely on what the Sacred Scripture says.

SOLI DEO GLORIA means "Glory to God Alone". Doctrine that no one or anything outside God is to receive credit for salvation. Grace is simply a gift of God and not a work or will of man. God alone is to be praised for repentance gifted by Him.


.

 

[StJohnCalvin]

I would highly recommend Dr. James R. White's book "The God Who Justifies" for a discussion of James chapter 2 and Romans 4-6. One of the best exegesis I have seen of these two often misunderstood and often wrongly interpreted passages. God Bless

Love in Christ for the sake of His truth in His Church

 

[StJohnCalvin]

A brief citation from "The God Who Justifies" by Dr. James R. White:

The entire purpose of James 2:14-26 can be summarized by the words "show me." It is the apostle's intention to call Christians to the very same living faith that Paul speaks of in Ephesians 2:10. This exhortation of Christians is not addressing how the ungodly are declared righteous before God, but how that declaration is shown outwardly in the Christian life. As such it is a penetrating and convicting call to godly living that is perfectly consistent with Paul's doctrine of God as the gracious Justifier of His elect people... When we allow James to speak for himself, in his own context, and allow him to define his own terms (rather than forcing the specific meanings defined by Paul in arguing for justification by grace through faith), his intentions and purposes are clear. The biblical truth is truly beyond controversy: Living faith (1) can demonstrate its existence and is consistent with godly living and (2) is sufficent unto salvation in contrast to dead faith, which is not.

James R. White, The God Who Justifies, (Bethany House Publishers, 2001) pp. 329,354.

 

[Tychicum]

The book of James was written very very early ... James was killed by Acts 12 in terms of timeline. Much of Paul's revelation for the Church by the Risen Glorified Lord would not likely have been even received by that time.

From the very opening verse in the Book of James we can tell whom he is addressing ... and when ...

James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. My brethren ...
(Jam 1:1 KJV)

Pretty hard to miss ...

Much of the Book of James ... indeed all of the Messianic Jewish Epistles will be appreciated fully after the Church is taken out of the world (the Rapture) ... during the Tribulation period ...

One of my favourite authors Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum has a very good commentary he actually calls "The Messianic Jewish Epistles". I highly recommend the book.

.

 

[tel0004]

Amazing Timing! I was listening to tony evans, (tonyevans.org) and he was talking about this today. He was saying that James was talking about experiencing heaven while on earth, by faith and works, and Paul was actually talking about heaven, just faith is needed. It made sence, I think you can listen online to today sermon if you are interested.

 

[Apollos1]

Tychicum -

I see that you are still around. However, for all of the posts you are putting up around here you are not answering many questions or passages I am putting to you or your buddies. C'mon - jump in!

You said - Interesting point of view ... Apollos.
Merit based salvation?
OK.

You are too quick to form an incorrect opinion. I don't keep the OT law, and I don't believe one can "merit" salvation through any channel. So look below for my teaching of faith and works.

But before I start... Looking at your last post to me, you list -5- items that you say man is saved by. Each one is listed as a "solo" item.

Isn't that contradictory? You have five items and each is listed as a stand alone item that saves us. You must mean that it takes all -5- items to save, yet you list them each as "sola" or "soli".

I am certain most readers here are going to find that SOLA CONFUSIUM - lol!
<<<*>>>

The dispensationalists claim their “view” of "faith” as applied in Romans and in James is not only the proper way to view such, it is the only way. This necessitates a dualistic “faith” definition by them under the overview of two differing “gospels” for two different groups. This dualistic overview of two “gospels” is so destructive to the integrity and harmony of Bible teaching on faith, it is to be studied only of necessity, but not to be embraced.

It is always expedient to define the topics that are under discussion, and this to be done according to how they are used in context in scripture. By doing so harmony of scripture will prevail and the truth will be recognized. You are going to see just how simple the truth is.
<<<*>>>

FAITH

With the exception of a true Calvinist, everyone I have ever studied with believes that man must DO something to obtain the salvation that God offers to man by His grace. We know this because, although God’s grace is extended to ALL men, we know not ALL men will be saved.

What is the difference between the saved ones and the lost ones?.. Faith !!
But this can not be defined as “belief only” if we keep to a scriptural definition.

I find “faith” or “belief” typically used as a comprehensive word in scripture involving more than just a mental “assent” in facts (Heb. 11:1). Does it not indicate to the readers here that “faith” involves an understanding or acknowledgement of facts joined with a trust and confidence placed in those facts that they have come to know? And as such does this then not become that “faith” which the Hebrew writer proclaims as the faith which is “unto the saving of the soul” ??

Also, no one I have studied with believes in “faith (believe) only” –
aka “easy-believe-ism”. So I ask, does anyone really believe in “faith (belief) only”?

Does repentance play a part in a man coming to the point of salvation (Acts 17:30)? If so, “faith (believe) only” will not work for you.

Paul presents the actuality of repentance in Romans 6:

Verse – 1 Do not continue in sin that grace may abound.
Verse – 2 How can we continue to sin if we died in respect to sin?
Verse – 6 Our old man was crucified with Him that the body of sin might be done away.

Is confession required (Romans 10:10 – “…with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.” )? Paul includes confession of Jesus as Lord an integral part of coming to salvation, just as much as repentance. If so, “faith only” does not exist – this would amount only to easy believe-ism !

Because repentance and confession are taught by Paul, this debunks the notion that Paul suggests “faith (belief) only” in the book of Romans – he does not !
<<<<>>>>

Ephesians 2:8f speaks of salvation!
Look at the passage…

“For by grace have you been saved…” The topic is salvation!

The prepositional phrase “through faith” - modifies the direct object “saved”.
This tells us HOW we have been saved – “through faith”.
“Salvation” is not of ourselves, it is God’s gift.

This gift of salvation is not appropriated by “boastful” works.

Note: The salvation of Ephesians 2:8ff is not accomplished by BOASTFUL works. This does NOT eliminate other works – only boastful works!

WORKS

This brings us to s study of “works” as used in the New Testament…

Acts 10:35 – “…but in every nation he that fears him, and works righteousness, is acceptable to him.
Romans 4:5 – “But to him that works not, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness.”
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
When the scriptures say “works” it does not always mean “works of the law” (OT). In this context there are –3- types of “works” mentioned in scripture:

1.) Works of merit: These are works performed to earn something – called “boastful works” in Eph. 2:9. Those works which would allow us to brag that we earned, and therefore merit our salvation and that we do not need God. “Works” that would let us say God owes salvation to us. This is the type of “works” mentioned in Romans 4:4 – see below.

2.) Works of “the law” (OT): No one is “accounted righteous” in His sight by these “works” - Romans 3:20. And if you keep one point of this law (OT) you must keep it all - Gal. 5:3, Jas. 2:10.

3.) Works of God:

John 6:29 – “This is the work of God that you believe on Him whom he hath sent.”. There are “works” that God wants us to do.

Ephesians 2:10 – “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.”

There are “works” that God prepared for us to do! If we do all that God wants us to do, we are still unprofitable servants – Luke 16:10. But we still have a duty to perform and it is this type of “work” that God expects and rewards! God will account such “works” to us for righteousness - by His grace and mercy. It is called OBEDIENCE !

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Now look at what James said without putting your “bi-gospels” over your eyes. By doing these “works” of God, we can show our faith (James 2:18 ), perfect our faith (James 2:22), and receive justification (James 2:24). We can even show our love (John 14:15,21,23,24).
You say you have “faith” – show the “substance” and the “conviction” of that faith ! The faith that saves is the faith that “works”!

Now looking at the context of Romans 4:1-5 we note Paul is discussing works of merit.
Verse 1 – Abraham found nothing according the “flesh”.
Verse 2 mentions “works’ that would have allowed Abraham to glory (boastful works), but not toward God.
Verse 4 talks of working for a reward (we worked to obtain it, earn it), this in respect to the word “debt” (it is therefore owed to us).

The context: Abraham's "righteousness" was received apart from MERITORIOUS works!

The conclusion is that Peter, Paul, and James are in perfect harmony – when you recognize what type of “work” is under discussion in the context!

Romans 6:17-18 – “But thanks be to God, that, whereas you were servants of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching whereunto you were delivered; 18 and being made free from sin, you became servants of righteousness.”

“Obedience from the heart” defines the ”only faith” that will save !!
This teaching is far and apart from that which is called - “faith only” !!

 

[TheScottsMen]

I re-read Romans 4 to make certain I knew what it said. Unfortunately for the "faith only" or "faith alone" crowd those words can not be found in that passage.

The expression "faith alone" is NEVER found in scripture!!

The context of Romans 4 is often abused as is James 2 when compared with it.

I have been short of free time lately but perhaps I can type something up to help with this gross misunderstanding of Romans 4 this weekend.

But the faith that saves is the faith that acts!
Do nothing believers can expect just that from God...

NOTHING !!!

Faith that saves is faith that is given after the regenerational work of the Holy Spirit. Saving faith will always produce fruit. Not that the fruit or works that stem from saving faith merit salvation or work with faith in attaining salvation; but that they are simply the result of God's grace and His Spirit that works within us.

Be it Kingdom Saints or Saints of the Body of Christ - faith without fruit, is no faith at all.

 

[WAB]

I re-read Romans 4 to make certain I knew what it said. Unfortunately for the "faith only" or "faith alone" crowd those words can not be found in that passage.

The expression "faith alone" is NEVER found in scripture!!

The context of Romans 4 is often abused as is James 2 when compared with it.

I have been short of free time lately but perhaps I can type something up to help with this gross misunderstanding of Romans 4 this weekend.

But the faith that saves is the faith that acts!
Do nothing believers can expect just that from God...

NOTHING !!!

INTELLECTUAL ASSENT DOES NOT EQUATE WITH FAITH​

James, Chapter 2, verses 13-19.... “What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can (that kind of) faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, ‘Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,’ but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, ‘You have faith and I have works.’ Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. (Good for you!) Even the demons believe— and tremble!”

Must say that I agree with the great majority of what you have posted, and the above is just a slight addition.

Shalom... WAB

 

[Apollos1]

WAB -

Thank you for your reply.

Too many people make "mental assent" a saving faith when in fact it can save no one.

There are too many examples in the Bible of when and which type of "faith" is rewarded to not take notice that it is indeed the FAITH THAT ACTS that is always rewarded by God.

I appreciate the addition.

 

[Tychicum]

The qualifiers to "Faith" which some of you add is simply "works".

Works toward self-righteousness ... I wish you all the luck that you will need.

If you believe that works are necessary to salvation just simply say so. Simply say that Grace is insufficient.

Say how the works are measured and how much is necessary.

If you insist as some seem to ... that Faith alone is insufficient ... say how the Lord's blood is insufficient. How much must be added to it ...

I know that our Catholic friends use "purgatory points" to calculate how long someone spends in hell before they are worthy to enter Heaven ... but how does your system work? Or are you Catholic and adopt the merit system?

How much or how many dollars for indulgences are necessary to add to Jesus blood?

.

 

[Apollos1]

Tychy -

God gets to define what faith is and what faith consists of. If God adds "qualifiers", then God has every right to do so. If God says He has some "works" for man to do, that is His perogative! We can define and we need to define what faith is by the BIBLE - not by the presuppositons and leanings of man.

How do "works" nullify grace? Grace is God's part of the salvation equation - faith is man's part. God extends His grace in the manner He so chooses - man must accept on God's terms. If God requires man to anything His grace still extends the conditions on which man is saved!

If you think I am talking about works of
self-righteousness, then you have not been paying attention in this thread - you went to sleep!

Go back to Post #9 (this thread) and R-E-A-D what is posted there. Better yet, instead of just yapping about things as you are so prone to do, why not actually ANSWER some of those points!

C'mon big boy - answer the arguments presented there about the -3- types of works.

Why do you remark about "insufficiency"???
Can grace alone save? No - man must respond!
Is Christ's blood alone sufficient? No - grace caused that blood to be shed and man must respond to benefit from that sacrifice.
Is faith alone enough? No - because God requires more than a "dead" faith in resonse to His grace from man!

The faith that can save is the faith that does something! And unless you are a true Calvinist, YOU require that man must DO SOMETHING in order to appropriate salvation.

You are in dire need of some study about the interaction and inter-relationship of grace and faith.

You also need some study about the types of "works" mentioned in the scriptures. Who knows, you may even attempt to answer a post for once, something with substance, instead of chipping in one of your typical cutesy replies.

Who knows?

But if you want to attempt being saved having only a dead faith - well, that will be your problem. Study on it!

 

[heymikey80]

The qualifiers to "Faith" which some of you add is simply "works".

Works toward self-righteousness ... I wish you all the luck that you will need.

If you believe that works are necessary to salvation just simply say so. Simply say that Grace is insufficient.

Say how the works are measured and how much is necessary.

If you insist as some seem to ... that Faith alone is insufficient ... say how the Lord's blood is insufficient. How much must be added to it ...

I know that our Catholic friends use "purgatory points" to calculate how long someone spends in hell before they are worthy to enter Heaven ... but how does your system work? Or are you Catholic and adopt the merit system?

How much or how many dollars for indulgences are necessary to add to Jesus blood?

.

For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Ep 2:10
​

 

[eph3Nine]

Believing is NOT a work and is NOT "doing something". It is the ONLY response LEFT for man when he is faced with all that God HAS DONE to secure His redemption.

We are created UNTO good works, which the scripture says God prepared beforehand ...so much for OUR involvement ....that we should WALK IN THEM.

God prepares the works for those who are truly saved by His grace. All they have to do is "walk in them"....so much for patting ourselves on the back for "doing something"....LOL

 

[heymikey80]

It's interesting to find agreement with both sides.

Faith alone saves, but it's not alone. Works result, and they're set out for us to do -- good works, but we do God's works.

Grace alone brings responses from men (John 6:44).
Christ's blood alone allows the reconciliation that brings God's grace to us. (Rom 5)
Our faith itself is given to us from God (Heb 12:2, 1 Jn 5:1, Ep 2:8-10), and that living faith produces works. (Ep 2:10 e.g.)

So yes, our response and action are significant. But they come from grace, Christ, and faith, which are crucial.

 

[Apollos1]

E39 -

Welcome back. You have been unusually quiet as of late...

You said - Believing is NOT a work...

John 6:29 - "Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

It looks as though Jesus disagrees with you! Therefore it must also be "doing something".

You said - It is the ONLY response LEFT for man when he is faced with all that God HAS DONE to secure His redemption.

Gasp! You mean man MUST DO SOMETHING - like "respond". Oh my!

You see, it is just as I earlier said, unless you are a true Calvinist, you are going to say man must DO SOMETHING to appropriate salvation!

You may call it a "response", some require prayer or a confession, or maybe water baptism, but everyone REQUIRES something(s) - except the Calvinists.

So now it just depends on HOW MANY things you require in your "response" to appropriate salvation.

Must a man REPENT ??? Tell me E39, must man REPENT before he appropriates salvation ???? Please tell us!

You said - We are created UNTO good works...

I am glad you recognize there are "works" for disciples to DO! Do these "works" maintain our relationship with God, or what is the purpose - just to keep what we already have - salvation??? How does this work?

Hopefully you will recognize that "works" (of God) are prerequisite before salvation is received as well.

You said - ...which the scripture says God prepared beforehand ...so much for OUR involvement ....that we should WALK IN THEM.

And this really is the point. It is not US - it is God. It is not OUR works - they are God's works. Doing what God requires is not OUR devising or earning anything - it is all by God's GRACE - His plan, His works, His grace grants salvation to man because even doing what He requires still can not earn that type of reward - cf. Luke 17:10. This is how faith-works-grace works.

And without action on man's part (which action is required, designed, and credited by God) there can be no salvation. This is as God planned it.


You said - God prepares the works for those who are truly saved by His grace.

"Truly saved" is a used by man to qualify salvation into his terms. You are either saved or you aren't.

But if God prepares "works" for the saved to walk in, WHY can't God have prepared "works" for the lost to do?
The answer is God can!

And I am trying to get you to see that God DID just this!

You said - All they have to do is "walk in them"....so much for patting ourselves on the back for "doing something"....LOL

You are seeing part of God's design already. It is all about God and what He requires us to do, whether lost or saved. ALL must do God's "works" !!!!

"Works" of God - not boastful works or OT works - compliment the grace of God - it is as He designed !

It is good to hear from you...

 

[eph3Nine]

E39 -

Welcome back. You have been unusually quiet as of late...

You said - Believing is NOT a work...

John 6:29 - "Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Look at the verse....Gods work is DONE...the only thing LEFT is ...duh...NOT more work, but to BELIEVE IT. And this verse in John is addressed NOT to you, but to the nation Israel who was told to EXPECT a promised MESSIAH...and they DIDNT.

You said - It is the ONLY response LEFT for man when he is faced with all that God HAS DONE to secure His redemption.

Gasp! You mean man MUST DO SOMETHING - like "respond". Oh my!

You see, it is just as I earlier said, unless you are a true Calvinist, you are going to say man must DO SOMETHING to appropriate salvation!

You may call it a "response", some require prayer or a confession, or maybe water baptism, but everyone REQUIRES something(s) - except the Calvinists.

Believing isnt a WORK....I dont care what you say. God has DONE all the work...but our FAITH is expressed thru BELIEVING. Its always been a requirement.

So now it just depends on HOW MANY things you require in your "response" to appropriate salvation.

Must a man REPENT ??? Tell me E39, must man REPENT before he appropriates salvation ???? Please tell us!

Repentance means to change ones MIND. Do YOU think repent means to turn from sin? I must change my mind to believe that there is NOTHING I can do to save myself that God has NOT ALREADY DONE IN Christ.

You said -

We are created UNTO good works...

I am glad you recognize there are "works" for disciples to DO! Do these "works" maintain our relationship with God, or what is the purpose - just to keep what we already have - salvation??? How does this work?

Hopefully you will recognize that "works" (of God) are prerequisite before salvation is received as well.

Oh my....well, one, Im not a disciple. I am a member of His Body. My works dont "maintain" anything. God is the author and finisher of my faith. Works are a RESULT of having been saved, NOT a means to obtain it or maintain it. Works have NOTHING to do with our salvation...and you cannot prove it to be so thru scripture either. Works are inadmissable for salvation under todays program of Grace.

You said - ...

which the scripture says God prepared beforehand ...so much for OUR involvement ....that we should WALK IN THEM.

And this really is the point. It is not US - it is God. It is not OUR works - they are God's works. Doing what God requires is not OUR devising or earning anything - it is all by God's GRACE - His plan, His works, His grace grants salvation to man because even doing what He requires still can not earn that type of reward - cf. Luke 17:10. This is how faith-works-grace works.

And without action on man's part (which action is required, designed, and credited by God) there can be no salvation. This is as God planned it.

You have hopelessly intertwined the faith plus works salvation of times Past which was required of the Nation Israel and applied it to we the Church, the Body of Christ. NO NO NO. Luke isnt OUR plan and program, young man.

You said -

God prepares the works for those who are truly saved by His grace.

"Truly saved" is a used by man to qualify salvation into his terms. You are either saved or you aren't.

But if God prepares "works" for the saved to walk in, WHY can't God have prepared "works" for the lost to do?
The answer is God can!

Many think they are saved but are believing a gospel that does NOT save today. Repent and be baptized is NOT the gospel of OUR salvation today. Its the gospel for another audience at another time, but NOT for today. As to your statement about lost people doing works...I dont even understand why you would bring it up...since the Word tells us that by the works of the law shall NO man be justified in his sight.

You said -

All they have to do is "walk in them"....so much for patting ourselves on the back for "doing something"....LOL

You are seeing part of God's design already. It is all about God and what He requires us to do, whether lost or saved. ALL must do God's "works" !!!!

"Works" of God - not boastful works or OT works - compliment the grace of God - it is as He designed !

It is good to hear from you...

You are so patronizing that it is almost painful to read your posts. I will continue to avoid your posts as I see a person with little to no understanding of Gods plan and purpose and a big ego. Tsk tsk tsk

 

[heymikey80]

And without action on man's part (which action is required, designed, and credited by God) there can be no salvation. This is as God planned it.

Interesting. What do you make of Paul's comments at Romans 4?

For if Abraham was justified by actions, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness." Now to the one who acts, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not act but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness Rom 4:2-5
​

I'd agree that there is submission, a credulous response on the part of the believer which results in good works given time, ability, and at the Spirit of God's choosing. I would further agree that the Spirit working in the person causes repentance and faith, which might be called works, but which really don't justly draw any acknowledgement on God's part. (IOW, why would trusting what is already the truth gain anything but a "So what" from God?)

This can be the way it seems to work. In our current state, the wheat grows with the tares, and we acknowledge visible growth and patiently await the visible result -- fruit or thorns. But I don't think God is deceived by the outward appearances we see. I think God sends His Spirit into our hearts, and that's our salvation. That's also the real basis for conversion, repentance, faith. They're instruments of salvation, which God gives to us.