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A closer look at "Predestination"

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One of my favorite topics in the Bible is the one of Predestination. This is a compelling collection of New Testament (KJV) Scriptures on the subject. The writers of Scripture certainly seemed adamant in continually pointing out that we are predestined by God.

This time I found a place online that already had the Scriptures compiled by topic. Thanks to this website for doing most of the work for me. http://www.grace-through-faith.com/

To me it seems logical that the embracing of the Scriptural truth of Predestination fittingly marks the final step of grace that fully brings us into the rest we are called to as believers.

Surely Jesus' words apply just as much to us today as they did to His apostles two millenia ago.

"You did not choose me, but I chose you..." John 15:16


Enjoy...





At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Matthew 11:25

And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. Matthew 16:16-17

So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen. Matthew 20:16

For many are called, but few are chosen. Matthew 22:14

And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Matthew 24:22

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Matthew 24:24

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:31

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Matthew 25:34-40

And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. Mark 13:20

For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. Mark 13:22

And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? Luke 18:7

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. John 1:12-13

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. John 6:37-39

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. John 6:44-45

Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also. John 8:19
Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. John 8:43

He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. John 8:47

And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind. John 9:39

But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. John 10:2-5

I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. John 10:14-15

Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. John 10:24-29

That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him. John 12:38-41

Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. John 14:17

Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. John 15:16 Note: Many commentaries refer this as the Election of Apostleship but many believe this also applies to the all that are saved

If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. John 15:19

These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. John 17:1-2

I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. John 17:6
I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. John 17:9-11

And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. Acts 2:46-47

And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. Acts 13:48

Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ: To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 1:1-7

What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. Romans 3:9-11

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Romans 8:28-30
 
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Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Romans 8:33

As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. Romans 9:13-26

Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day. Romans 11:5-8

God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. 1st Corinthians 1:9

Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. 1st Corinthians 12:3

Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. 1st Corinthians 2:8-16

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. Galatians 5:22-23

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. Ephesians 1:3-12

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:8-10

I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy, For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now; Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: Philippians 1:3-6

For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake; Having the same conflict which ye saw in me, and now hear to be in me. Philippians 1:29-30

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Philippians 2:12-13

Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily. Colossians 1:25-29

Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye. Colossians 3:12-13

We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers; Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father; Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. 1st Thessalonians 1:2-4

As ye know how we exhorted and comforted and charged every one of you, as a father doth his children,That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory. 1st Thessalonians 2:11-12

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. 1st Thessalonians 5:23-24
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2nd Thessalonians 2:8-14

Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles. 2nd Timothy 1:8-11

Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour; Titus 1:1-3

Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. Hebrews 12:1-2

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. James 1:17-18
 
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Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. 1st Peter 1:1-2


But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. 1st Peter 2:9-10


Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 2nd Peter 1:1-4


Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 2nd Peter 1:10 (Note: Self-examination...to clear it up to one's self that they are chosen of God so that they will not fall into temptation. Also note Philippians 2:12 and James 2:13-24)


Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. 1st John 4:4-6


The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth; For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever. 2nd John 1-2 (Note: Speaking of the Church (elect lady) and the her members (her children))


Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called: Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied. Jude 1: 1-2


And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Revelation 13:7-8


The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. Revelation 17:8


These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. Revelation 17:14

"Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven." Luke 10:20
 
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Alpine

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I think that we trapped in time have to make a choice (free will). At the same time, the One outside of time already knows what we will do, and in many instances, steps out of eternity into time and helps us make the choice for Him.

So, I believe in both predestination and free will. At some point in time I had to choose Him, He never forced me against my will.Yet He chose me, even before time began.
 
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Strong in Him

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I think that we trapped in time have to make a choice (free will). At the same time, the One outside of time already knows what we will do, and in many instances, steps out of eternity into time and helps us make the choice for Him.

So, I believe in both predestination and free will. At some point in time I had to choose Him, He never forced me against my will.Yet He chose me, even before time began.

:thumbsup: What he said.

God knows all things. He knows that some of those he created to love and know him will deliberately reject him :(.
It's not that he wants them to, wants them to be lost, or created them and then changed his mind about loving and saving them, he just knows what their decision will be. God knows, and knew from the beginning, who would be his, how many people would respond to his love and gift of eternal life. We have free will, because he doesn't force anyone to do anything - Adam was not forced to stay away from the tree of good and evil. But he still knows what we will choose.

And I think that's the bottom line for me; the character of God. I can't believe that God would create someone knowing that they had no choice about choosing him; that whoever they met and however often they heard the Gospel, they were unable to respond because God had already decided they would go to hell. (And if the belief is that God has chosen some to be with him, then obviously he has chosen the others not to be with him.) My earthly father wouldn't have done anything like that (decided to have kids just to disinherit one of them,) so how can I believe that my heavenly Father would?
 
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:thumbsup: What he said.

God knows all things. He knows that some of those he created to love and know him will deliberately reject him :(.
It's not that he wants them to, wants them to be lost, or created them and then changed his mind about loving and saving them, he just knows what their decision will be. God knows, and knew from the beginning, who would be his, how many people would respond to his love and gift of eternal life. We have free will, because he doesn't force anyone to do anything - Adam was not forced to stay away from the tree of good and evil. But he still knows what we will choose.

And I think that's the bottom line for me; the character of God. I can't believe that God would create someone knowing that they had no choice about choosing him; that whoever they met and however often they heard the Gospel, they were unable to respond because God had already decided they would go to hell. (And if the belief is that God has chosen some to be with him, then obviously he has chosen the others not to be with him.) My earthly father wouldn't have done anything like that (decided to have kids just to disinherit one of them,) so how can I believe that my heavenly Father would?

There are several problems that this poses.

1. God knew the choice we would make, yet He made us anyway without intervening consequentially predestinating the non-elect anyway.

2. The other idea that you suggest concerning double predestination is one refered to as equal ultimacy. That God actively intervenes not only to do good on the elect's behalf, but to do evil on the non-elect's behalf. This is not the concept that Calvin held to, nor is it the concept that advocates of double predestination adhere to.

Double predestination advocates a passive hardening against God...where God simply does not do anything and that the non-elect simply do what it is in their nature to do...what's in all of our nature to do...sin.

In the lives of the elect...God sovereignly decides upon those whom He chooses to be the objects of His mercy.

Romans 9:22-24

22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
 
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and in many instances, steps out of eternity into time and helps us make the choice for Him.

Yet that is actively intervening and so He is showing sovereign favor.

Jaccob have I loved, Esau have I hated.


At some point in time I had to choose Him, He never forced me against my will.Yet He chose me, even before time began.

Yet He is the one who gives you the grace to believe and His Holy Spirit who enables you to come to Him.

The concept of total depravity based on the passages in Romans is that we do not have the innate ability to choose God.
 
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MrSnow

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I guess the U is the only letter that I can really say I have no issue with. However the whole predestination thing works, I think scripture is very clear that God's choice is not according to anything he sees in us. God didn't choose Israel because they were a powerful and intelligent nation. They would have rejected him (and most did) from the very get-go. So however it works, I don't believe for a second that it would have anything to do with what God foresaw us doing or not doing.

So t1WGl, there's where you and I can agree.
 
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I guess the U is the only letter that I can really say I have no issue with. However the whole predestination thing works, I think scripture is very clear that God's choice is not according to anything he sees in us. God didn't choose Israel because they were a powerful and intelligent nation. They would have rejected him (and most did) from the very get-go. So however it works, I don't believe for a second that it would have anything to do with what God foresaw us doing or not doing.

So t1WGl, there's where you and I can agree.

Yeah someone agrees with me! :clap: (Well I think Cassidy agrees with me as well)

One of the more obvious issues that I think ironically gets overlooked is the type and shadow of Israel in the Old Testament that you pointed out. The OT looks so unfair on the surface...here God shows favor on this nation that certainly did not deserve it...in fact I find myself liking non-Israelites many times in the OT more so than the Israelites.

The point being...they certainly did not deserve it...in fact...it all stemmed back to Abraham believing God and God counting it as righteousness and Scripture states that we each have a measure of faith and that it is something that is apportioned by God. So even Abraham ultimately could not take credit for anything.

The fact of the matter is...no one can truly take credit for anything. Paul...did not choose God....God chose Paul

Same thing with Peter, John, etc...

1st Corinthians 1:26-29

26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.


 
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Alpine

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Yet that is actively intervening and so He is showing sovereign favor.

Jaccob have I loved, Esau have I hated.


That's what I mean by "and in many instances, steps out of eternity into time and helps us make the choice for Him."

God does sometimes help us along the way, via dreams, visions and other means. Despite His intervention, we can still choose to walk away from His mercy.

God has a plan. I as a mere human do not understand Him, but He somehow has a plan in the midst of all the chaos in this world.
 
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Strong in Him

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There are several problems that this poses.

1. God knew the choice we would make, yet He made us anyway without intervening consequentially predestinating the non-elect anyway.

No, he created us and gave us free will. Just as Adam was free to choose to obey God's command to him, so we are free to choose whether or not to follow God. The OT prophets said this all the time; CHOOSE this day who you will serve.

I don't believe God would NOT create someone if he knew they were going to reject him. That would be very selective - an, "I'll create you because you're going to believe in me" attitude. And anyway, if that had been the case, everyone would be Christians.

I don't believe that a couple who were both doctors would choose not to have a child just in case it didn't become a doctor. Nor would a woman who was very feminine, loved being a homemaker and wanted a large family refuse to start that family in case one of her daughters was a tomboy, or gay, or did, or became, something that was completely opposed to her beliefs and/or lifestyle. I have heard many people say "whatever they do, they still my child. I don't like them sometimes, or don't like what they choose to do, but I love them."

2. The other idea that you suggest concerning double predestination is one refered to as equal ultimacy. That God actively intervenes not only to do good on the elect's behalf, but to do evil on the non-elect's behalf.

I didn't knowingly talk about double predestnation, since I don't know what it is. All I can say is that you're starting from the premis that there are "elect" and "non elect"; I'm not. I believe that God knows who has accepted him and who will accept him, but predestination always suggests to me that God is sitting in heaven with some kind of checklist, and directs his children to pray for, or his Spirit to go to,only the people who are on his list for salvation. I may have grossly misunderstood predestination, but the image I have presented is the image of God that I reject. There are many Scriptures that talk about God's love for ALL, everyone, and if you accept that ALL have sinned, then ALL have the need for salvation, and therefore a Saviour.

This is not the concept that Calvin held to, nor is it the concept that advocates of double predestination adhere to.

I've no idea what Calvin did or didn't do. I tend towards Armenianism, just as Wesley did.

Double predestination advocates a passive hardening against God...where God simply does not do anything

Well I certainly do not believe that God does not do anything. There are hundreds of ways, I believe, in which God speaks to us and tries to get our attention every day - a beautiful sunset, a newborn baby, a tragedy which may prompt someone to turn to the church, a Christian colleague who has been praying, a Bible verse displayed on a billboard, which just "happens" to be what someone is needing. The problem is not that God is reluctant to speak; it's that we are unwilling (through busyness, pride, self relaince etc) or unable (because sin has hardened our hearts) to hear him when he does. That does not mean that he gives up - 1 Cor 13, love always perseveres.

WE are the problem, not God. It's always been that way. WE mess up/fail to help those in need/pollute the world or whatever, people suffer and then we turn round and say "how can a God of love allow suffering?"
God sometimes lets us suffer the consequences of our choices; ultimately people go to hell because they have chosen to reject God, not because they were destined for the eternal barbeque before they were even born.
 
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ultimately people go to hell because they have chosen to reject God, not because they were destined for the eternal barbeque before they were even born.


As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. Romans 9:13-26
 
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I just think the Bible teaches both. I've given up trying to work it out - and I have tried. I think any honest reading of the Old Testament prophetic books will give a strong impression of a God who desires His people to make choices that avoid the need for punishment. And yet, there are passages which which clearly speak of predestination.

Obviously, the idea of predestination isn't particularly appealing - this idea that God arbitrarily chooses (or creates, even) people for the sole purpose of punishing them (or, to be kinder, for the purpose of allowing them to experience a punishment we all nominally deserve). You parents: why have children? One of your children might be an individual God has chosen to spill His wrath on for His glory, rather than somebody He had chosen before they did anything to be a special rescued possession. It also means we'd all have to stop saying "God loves you" when sharing the Good news (and the "common grace" thing is a total cop-out when considering that after Earth there's hellfire waiting for the chosen damned.) We couldn't say "God loves you" because He might not love that person; they might be ones of those born to go to Hell.

Still, predestination is blatantly in the Bible. I just don't understand it.
 
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I just think the Bible teaches both. I've given up trying to work it out - and I have tried. I think any honest reading of the Old Testament prophetic books will give a strong impression of a God who desires His people to make choices that avoid the need for punishment. And yet, there are passages which which clearly speak of predestination.

Obviously, the idea of predestination isn't particularly appealing - this idea that God arbitrarily chooses (or creates, even) people for the sole purpose of punishing them (or, to be kinder, for the purpose of allowing them to experience a punishment we all nominally deserve). You parents: why have children? One of your children might be an individual God has chosen to spill His wrath on for His glory, rather than somebody He had chosen before they did anything to be a special rescued possession.

I saw it on a signautre of someone around here (can't remember who) it said...I'm not suprised God does not save all of us...I'm suprised God saves any of us.

So I think it depends on each of our perspectives. However...free will in that regard is not too appealing either. People go to hell either way. How much of a consolation is it to tell a parent..."yes...your child went to hell...but they did so because of the choices they made." To me that would not be much of a consolation...in fact knowing what we know about God from Jesus, I would much rather prefer the whole process to be in His hands.

It also means we'd all have to stop saying "God loves you" when sharing the Good news
Why would we do that?...Scripture plainly states that God so loved the world...in love salvation is made available to everyone, yet those who are saved are saved because of the grace of God imparted to them by God.


(and the "common grace" thing is a total cop-out when considering that after Earth there's hellfire waiting for the chosen damned.) We couldn't say "God loves you" because He might not love that person; they might be ones of those born to go to Hell.

Still, predestination is blatantly in the Bible. I just don't understand it.
However ,we give common grace to murderers...a meal, a humane death, etc...

The defining difference between Christianity and all the other religions in the world is that all the other religions say there is good in man...Christianity says there is no good in man except God. (Total Depravity)

Look at Revelation...this plague came and they repented not, this plague came and they repented not... Even under the Wrath of God the lost are still unrepentant.

In a twist of poetic justice, it is the master of my own domain, free will concept that lends itself to the pride of man that God resists and in the same manner it is the humble before God who know they can do nothing to make themselves right with God who find God and receieve His grace.
 
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So, I believe in both predestination and free will. At some point in time I had to choose Him, He never forced me against my will.Yet He chose me, even before time began.

You say choice then put (free will). Why does us having choices mean we automatically have free will? I've never understood why Christians think God gave us all free will. He gave us choices - yes....And we have the free will to choose from the choices given - yes. But we don't have the free will to choose outside of the choices nor do we have the free will to choose something we are unable to to do.

That's why I call it 'limited free will'...limited by what? Limited by our nature and the choices given. Put a mouse in a maze and the mouse has free will to move around as freely as it likes but can only move where the maze dictates...he cannot go outside the maze.

Goats do what goats do...their will is limited tothe fact that they are goats. And likewise...sheep do what sheep do, they are also limited to what sheep do also, they can't suddenly sprout wings and fly because they wish to. It's not within their nature.

This is why I understand predestination and perserverance of the saints so well. We are predestined to be his sons and thus we are predestined to eternity. Not because God takes away our free will but because we are regenerated into a new creation, which limits our free will to our new nature in Christ. We follow the shepherd because we are sheep.
 
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romans6and6

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The purpose in predestination is not that God chose a few to salvation and billions to end up in Hell, but instead what He predestinated us to.

Eph 1:4-7
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness [freedom] of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Rom 8:29-32
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?


God saw a people before the foundation of the world that would be holy and without blame before Him. He sent His Son to die on the Cross so that those who repented and believed the gospel would be holy before Him, washed in His blood, conformed to the image of His Son – the first born among many brethren, new creations in Christ.

This is biblical predestination. Calvinism takes the emphasis off of the purpose of our predestination and places it upon a “god” who chooses only a handful of “elect” while sending billions of people to Hell.

And then to add insult to injury, Calvinism also teaches that those “elect” chosen to “predestination” are still sinners. They don’t believe that someone can be free from sin in the here and now. They believe that physical death itself is the only thing that will separate man from his sin, thus dishonoring the finished work of the precious blood of Calvary.

As John Calvin taught:

“We maintain, therefore, that sin always exists in the saints, till they are divested of the mortal body…”

“But when God is said ‘to cleanse his church’ from all sin, to promise the grace of deliverance in baptism, and to fulfil it in his elect, - we refer these phrases rather to the guilt of sin, than to the existence of sin.”

“The other thing to be remarked is, that this depravity never ceases in us, but is perpetually producing new fruits – those works of the flesh which we have already described, like the emission of flames and sparks from a heated furnace, or like the streams of water form an unfailing spring. For concupiscence never dies, nor is altogether extinguished in men, till by death they are delivered from the body of death, and entirely divested of themselves.”

 
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romans6and6

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The purpose in predestination is not that God chose a few to salvation and billions to end up in Hell, but instead what He predestinated us to.

Eph 1:4-7
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness [freedom] of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Rom 8:29-32
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?


God saw a people before the foundation of the world that would be holy and without blame before Him. He sent His Son to die on the Cross so that those who repented and believed the gospel would be holy before Him, washed in His blood, conformed to the image of His Son – the first born among many brethren, new creations in Christ.

This is biblical predestination. Calvinism takes the emphasis off of the purpose of our predestination and places it upon a “god” who chooses only a handful of “elect” while sending billions of people to Hell.

And then to add insult to injury, Calvinism also teaches that those “elect” chosen to “predestination” are still sinners. They don’t believe that someone can be free from sin in the here and now. They believe that physical death itself is the only thing that will separate man from his sin, thus dishonoring the finished work of the precious blood of Calvary.

As John Calvin taught:

“We maintain, therefore, that sin always exists in the saints, till they are divested of the mortal body…”

“But when God is said ‘to cleanse his church’ from all sin, to promise the grace of deliverance in baptism, and to fulfil it in his elect, - we refer these phrases rather to the guilt of sin, than to the existence of sin.”

“The other thing to be remarked is, that this depravity never ceases in us, but is perpetually producing new fruits – those works of the flesh which we have already described, like the emission of flames and sparks from a heated furnace, or like the streams of water form an unfailing spring. For concupiscence never dies, nor is altogether extinguished in men, till by death they are delivered from the body of death, and entirely divested of themselves.”

 
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romans6and6

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The purpose in predestination is not that God chose a few to salvation and billions to end up in Hell, but instead what He predestinated us to.

Eph 1:4-7
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness [freedom] of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Rom 8:29-32
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?


God saw a people before the foundation of the world that would be holy and without blame before Him. He sent His Son to die on the Cross so that those who repented and believed the gospel would be holy before Him, washed in His blood, conformed to the image of His Son – the first born among many brethren, new creations in Christ.

This is biblical predestination. Calvinism takes the emphasis off of the purpose of our predestination and places it upon a God who chooses only a handful of “elect” while sending billions of people to Hell.

And then to add insult to injury, Calvinism also teaches that those “elect” chosen to “predestination” are still sinners. They don’t believe that someone can be free from sin in the here and now. They believe that physical death itself is the only thing that will separate man from his sin, thus dishonoring the finished work of the precious blood of Calvary.

As John Calvin taught:

“We maintain, therefore, that sin always exists in the saints, till they are divested of the mortal body…”

“But when God is said ‘to cleanse his church’ from all sin, to promise the grace of deliverance in baptism, and to fulfil it in his elect, - we refer these phrases rather to the guilt of sin, than to the existence of sin.”

“The other thing to be remarked is, that this depravity never ceases in us, but is perpetually producing new fruits – those works of the flesh which we have already described, like the emission of flames and sparks from a heated furnace, or like the streams of water form an unfailing spring. For concupiscence never dies, nor is altogether extinguished in men, till by death they are delivered from the body of death, and entirely divested of themselves.”

 
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The purpose in predestination is not that God chose a few to salvation and billions to end up in Hell, but instead what He predestinated us to.

Eph 1:4-7
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness [freedom] of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Rom 8:29-32
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?


God saw a people before the foundation of the world that would be holy and without blame before Him. He sent His Son to die on the Cross so that those who repented and believed the gospel would be holy before Him, washed in His blood, conformed to the image of His Son – the first born among many brethren, new creations in Christ.

This is biblical predestination. Calvinism takes the emphasis off of the purpose of our predestination and places it upon a “god” who chooses only a handful of “elect” while sending billions of people to Hell.

And then to add insult to injury, Calvinism also teaches that those “elect” chosen to “predestination” are still sinners. They don’t believe that someone can be free from sin in the here and now. They believe that physical death itself is the only thing that will separate man from his sin, thus dishonoring the finished work of the precious blood of Calvary.

As John Calvin taught:

“We maintain, therefore, that sin always exists in the saints, till they are divested of the mortal body…”

“But when God is said ‘to cleanse his church’ from all sin, to promise the grace of deliverance in baptism, and to fulfil it in his elect, - we refer these phrases rather to the guilt of sin, than to the existence of sin.”

“The other thing to be remarked is, that this depravity never ceases in us, but is perpetually producing new fruits – those works of the flesh which we have already described, like the emission of flames and sparks from a heated furnace, or like the streams of water form an unfailing spring. For concupiscence never dies, nor is altogether extinguished in men, till by death they are delivered from the body of death, and entirely divested of themselves.”
again...



As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. Romans 9:13-26
 
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