A Choice

Wiccan_Child said:

Is belief a choice? If a posit a claim, can you decide, there and then, that you believe it?

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You should say: Does belief start with a choice?

A belief is not a simple feature. But one can choose to accept the axiom and continue on the process. Most atheists do not even walk out of this first step. They jumped to criticize the faith subject without the acceptance of the possibility. If you claim you are an alien, I will chose to accept it, but if I am concerned, I will try to verify it to my best ability. After that, I may choose to believe it as a fact.

Many people chose and tried, but ended in a negative way. However, in Christianity, I believe the effort will not be in vain.

So, yes, to choose is the beginning of a belief.

juvenissun said:

You should say: Does belief start with a choice?

A belief is not a simple feature. But one can choose to accept the axiom and continue on the process. Most atheists do not even walk out of this first step. They jumped to criticize the faith subject without the acceptance of the possibility. If you claim you are an alien, I will chose to accept it, but if I am concerned, I will try to verify it to my best ability. After that, I may choose to believe it as a fact.

Many people chose and tried, but ended in a negative way. However, in Christianity, I believe the effort will not be in vain.

So, yes, to choose is the beginning of a belief.

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Supposed Bill Gates offered to pay you a million dollars to believe he can fly like a bird; can you choose to believe that?

Ken

juvenissun said:

You should say: Does belief start with a choice?

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I recommend that you start a new thread to discuss that entirely new question and issue, because that's not what this thread is about.


eudaimonia,

Mark

This article seems somewhat relevant to the discussion:

Thinking can undermine religious faith, study finds - latimes.com

Could it be that people are wired differently, some favoring analytical thought over intuition, or vice-versa, with different effects on belief?


eudaimonia,

Mark

Wiccan_Child said:

You say that like relying on logic and reason is a bad thing

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LOL! No no. We couldn't make it through the day without it, being as how weak we are in comparison to the rest of the animal kingdom. I mean, deer can lay a whooping on us for crying out loud. DEER!

I guess what I'm trying to say is, if God is real, than the method in which to know He is real has to be acsessable to the every man and not just the ivory tower of acadameia. The God of the Bible wants to be first in our lives, and for the one who has put knowledge ahead of everything else, including God, than I think He is looking for that "sacrifice" if you will. I don't mean sacraficing one's intelligence either, but sacrificing what one thinks they know to be true, in order to obtain the knowledge of God and His existence.

secondtimearound said:

sacrificing what one thinks they know to be true, in order to obtain the knowledge of God and His existence.

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In other words, sacrificing one's integrity.


eudaimonia,

Mark

American King James Version Jeremiah 29:13
And you shall seek me, and find me, when you shall search for me with all your heart.

American King James Version Acts 17:27
That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us

Deuteronomy 4:29
But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him if you look for him with all your heart and with all your soul. 1 Chronicles 16:10
Glory in his holy name; let the hearts of those who seek the LORD rejoice.
1 Chronicles 16:11
Look to the LORD and his strength; seek his face always.
1 Chronicles 28:9
"And you, my son Solomon, acknowledge the God of your father, and serve him with wholehearted devotion and with a willing mind, for the LORD searches every heart and understands every motive behind the thoughts. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever.
2 Chronicles 7:14
if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.
Psalm 9:10
Those who know your name will trust in you, for you, LORD, have never forsaken those who seek you.
Psalm 14:2
The LORD looks down from heaven on the sons of men to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God.


The very fact that you are sharing this information, of your inability to find God and your frustration, proves that you can find Him when you seek Him wholly.

Be still and let God speak to you. I am sure that He will.... drop all defenses for a while, go into a mode of "observation" and you will see God in your life... reaching for you... judge nothing but allow yourself to open your heart, don't question now (you can ask later)... and find God. He is there.

Eudaimonist said:

This article seems somewhat relevant to the discussion:

Thinking can undermine religious faith, study finds - latimes.com

Could it be that people are wired differently, some favoring analytical thought over intuition, or vice-versa, with different effects on belief?


eudaimonia,

Mark

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I'm reminded of an old joke. A philosophy student barges into his professors office, disheveled and the look of someone who had been up all night. In his right hand was a book by Descartes. His looks at his professor with tears in his eyes and says, "Professor! Do I exist?!" His professor looks at him with a smile and says, "Who wants to know?".

The point is, analytical thinking always leads one to doubt their position.

Now, in regards to the article, I remember an article published in 2001 in the secular humanist journal Philo written by prominent atheist philosopher Quentin Smith. In this article, Smith laments the de-secularization of Academia, particularly in philosophy. He describes how over the last forty years naturalists have stood by passively and watched as more and more Christians began to enter into the field of philosophy and do first rate work that simply couldn't be ignored. He also described how philosophy was becoming a favorite point of entry for some of today's brightest young minds. Smith estimates that between 1/4 to 1/3 of American faculty in philosophy are now theists and most of them born again Christians.

The article that you posted had genuine findings and I don't doubt that analytic thinking can lead to doubts and unbelief, but the renaissance of Christian philosophers should lead one to think that there may be more to logic and God's existence than what is often presented on this board. Very smart people are Christians.

Lastly, I go with my gut more often than not as I have been burned almost every time I have gone against it. I have personally experienced the miraculous and then went on in and out of doubt for a number of years only to find my doubts were unfounded and that it was emotional reasons that were the conductor of my train of thought.

Eudaimonist said:

In other words, sacrificing one's integrity.


eudaimonia,

Mark

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I think it's more sacrificing one's arrogance in thier own opinion than anything.

Why, though? What if God is aloof and uncaring, or distant and uninterested, or hidden in the details? I've certainly seen no sign of him, so if he does exist, he's doing a good job of hiding it.

And that's part of the reason for the thread. It's often said that one must choose to believe in God, but can you? I certainly can't, anymore than I can change my sexuality. It's often said that people who go to Hell go there because they have chosen to go to Hell, but have they? Can they? I've never made such a choice - give me a questionnaire, and I'll happily tick "doesn't want to burn forever".

So if belief isn't a choice, why is it often touted as one? Free will is all well and good, but we are not idealised cognizants floating in a realm of sensory deprivation - we are bombarded by influence and interference. Get born in Saudi Arabia, and your culture pretty much precludes any conversion to Christianity, despite no real free choice of your own. Conversely, get born in Texas and you're pratically guarenteed to end up a Christian - but again, through no genuine, unfettered choice that is truly your own.

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Now how did I know you were going to tie back into that. Let's not get involved in a red herring, but let's stick to your OP. Let me ask you a simple question, have you humbled yourself like a child to a parent and cried out to God asking Him if He could make Himself known to you? Not in a demanding way, but in a I need you, you don't need me kind of way. Please answer this question honestly. Also, if you have, have you done it consistently?

And, of course, it all roots back to the fundamental unfairness and injustice of the Christian afterlife - but that's another thread entirely

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Yes, let's stay on point.

Are you saying that Christianity actually teaches that salvation comes only after giving up logic and reason, that rational thought is an obstacle to finding God?

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No, I'm saying maybe in your case you should try something different.

secondtimearound said:

LOL! No no. We couldn't make it through the day without it, being as how weak we are in comparison to the rest of the animal kingdom. I mean, deer can lay a whooping on us for crying out loud. DEER!

I guess what I'm trying to say is, if God is real, than the method in which to know He is real has to be acsessable to the every man and not just the ivory tower of acadameia. The God of the Bible wants to be first in our lives, and for the one who has put knowledge ahead of everything else, including God, than I think He is looking for that "sacrifice" if you will. I don't mean sacraficing one's intelligence either, but sacrificing what one thinks they know to be true, in order to obtain the knowledge of God and His existence.

Click to expand...

If you have to sacrifice what you "know to be true" in order to believe in a god...that makes that god "untrue." Either that or "unknowable."

There's a book called Xenocide (in the Ender's Game series) that has a character wrestle with the question of how you make a moral decision when you know that you don't know everything. You might be interested in it.

Full disclosure: I only point it out because I agree with the conclusion, and I think it does a good job of demonstrating the thought process.

Basically, human being are restricted by what they know and understand. You have no choice but to assume that the things which, upon close examination, show every sign of being true are true. People have to make that assumption, because if we don't, life becomes unlivable. I watched a documentary on hoarding a while ago, and one guy in it had a very different motive than the others: he had some sort of mental problem where he literally couldn't trust what his senses told him. He never threw anything away, because, no matter how long he looked at it, he couldn't be sure that it was actually the thing it appeared to be and not, say, his vintage comic book collection. He couldn't cut anything, because he couldn't be sure that he wasn't accidentally about to cut his genitals instead of the thing he wanted to cut. He was afraid to turn a particular corner in his hallway because he was afraid he might accidentally walk into a tight nook, rather than where he was aiming, and then he'd get stuck.

In order to function, humans have to be able to work on the assumption that the world around them is as it appears to be. Some people do acknowledge that it might be different, but nonetheless, must continue to work on that assumption just because the world become meaningless if they don't.

So, when religious people say, "Sure this doesn't seem true, but you can't lean on your own understanding--you have to take it on faith," my question is, "Why would you do that?" Why would you sacrifice the most fundamental assumption a human being has to make, in order to be a functioning creature? Because, once you assert that there are things worth believing in, despite not appearing to be true, nothing else can be assumed, ever again. If, despite all appearances, there is a god at work in my life doing invisible things that affect me without any discernible cause, then there might also, despite all appearances, be a dragon in my closet or a fake patch in my floor that I might fall through or a rare comic book where I think there's a coupon in the newspaper.

If I can't trust that my most basic ability to discern the world around me is functional, then I can't trust anything, ever. Unless.....

There's one major exception. That's if something does appear to my senses, on a level that is comprehensible to me, and demonstrates the existence of something that is beyond my comprehension. If a god appears before me--proves they're a god (which is harder than you'd think), demonstrates their abilities and motives, and then says, "I won't appear to you again, but here's what you should know..... ok, now just trust me."

From then on, it would be possible to continue believing that the world around is more or less as it appears (and thus remain functional) while also trusting that there is more going on that is beyond my ability to discern or understand. But nobody who tells me I ought to do this is able to provide this type of reason. They basically say, "Don't trust what seems to be true to you; sacrifice the #1 thing that makes you functional; sacrifice your ability to discern truth from untruth and good from evil, because I'm telling you you should."

The example from the book was of a girl trying to figure out whether to help in a mission where it was very unclear what was going on. On the one hand, it might be that a government agency had caused the people on her planet to have a mental illness that kept them under the government's control, and she had the chance to help somebody cure the illness. On the other hand, it could be that the gods of her world were speaking to some of the people there, and if she helped in the mission, she'd be doing a monstrous thing--spreading heresy and maybe even severing the ties between the gods and their prophets.

Ultimately, she comes to the decision that she has to do what seems to be right, based on the information that she has, even though it's possible that she's wrong. This is simply because, to do what seems to be wrong is evil. If you act in a way that seems right, and you are mistaken, then you are a trustworthy, decent person who make a mistake and accidentally caused harm. If you act in a way that seems to be wrong, and it turns out you were mistaken, then you are still an evil person who does things they believe are harmful.

The idea of "lean not on your own understanding and just have faith," seems all nice and trusting and romantic, until you realize that it requires you to not care about what seems to be right, and that requires you to not care about anything at all.

People who actually live up to this tend to be utterly monstrous people who commit atrocities. The only reason this idea doesn't cause more harm than it does is because the people who say it don't actually live by it.

(None of this is to suggest that it's impossible to consider ideas that conflict with your understanding of how the world works. It's absolutely possible, and advisable, to examine hypotheticals based on, "So, if I'm mistaken about this, and it turns out that is actually true, then ..." But most Christians aren't asking atheists to do that. They're asking atheists to make the leap from "This is what appears to be true," to "no, that is actually true, even though it didn't look like it was at first," without any reason at all.

Belief itself is not a choice.
Our only choice is what we believe in.

And to touch briefly on Mling's thoughtful comments; it is possible to hold a belief in a reality that is beyond our senses. We are continually expanding our senses (through instrumentality and/or deep reflection) and thus changing our assumptions about the world around us. One of the things I admire about (true) science is its willingness to change beliefs as our perception of the world around us expands.

Ken-1122 said:

Supposed Bill Gates offered to pay you a million dollars to believe he can fly like a bird; can you choose to believe that?

Ken

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Yes. For the sake of the money, I won't even investigate.

juvenissun said:

Yes. For the sake of the money, I won't even investigate.

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Not investigating isn't the same as believing it. Believing Bill Gates can fly means, if you happen to be on a skiing trip with Bill Gates, and the ski lift gets stuck while you're on it, you think, "Oh, thank goodness I'm with Bill Gates. I'll just ride on his back as he flies down!"

This isn't asking if you can pretend, or decline to examine the evidence--it's about whether you can believe.

Wiccan_Child said:

So I could offer you a million pounds and you could choose, freely and utterly, to believe I am an alien?

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Of course I can choose to do that.

But if I care about my choice, I will start to see if it true, even you offered me nothing.

The key is that I "have to" assume it is true to begin with (in other words, take it seriously). Otherwise, there will be no effective action toward the understanding.

And that is 100% a choice.