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Yes. That is, I can prove (in the usual sense of "prove", i.e. provide evidence that show it beyond a reasonable doubt) to those who know or are willing to learn the genetics involved.-Can you prove that the DNA 'hierarchy' that ToE shows to be evidence of evolution is not just similar coding for similar organisms and nothing more?
Of course not. It's impossible to prove that God didn't make the world look old and make species look like evolution were true. It's also impossible to prove that the nation of Norway really exists and that God didn't implant the idea and memory of Norway in everyone's minds, to prove that God doesn't create the illusion of a moon that isn't really there every night, that God didn't create the appearance that Eisenhower was a general in World War II, and that the Bible wasn't written in 1957.-Can you prove or provide a rationale that God would or wouldn't initially make something 'old' form the start, as in He wouldn't create an ore of uranium already turning into lead?
Since fossils were found in particular layers long before they had a "desired location", yes, it's easy to prove that part. As for the rest, are you really calling it an assumption that most fossils are the same age as the rock they lie in?-Can you prove that fossils being aged are more then base assumption on their desired location in the fossil record and the rock they are found in?
No. Science does not 'prove' things. Science provides us with models and theories that attempt to explain the occurrence of natural phenomenon and the processes behind these phenomenon. These models are built using evidence, and the model that best explains the evidence is the model that is accepted to be most closely fitting reality. One of the best tests of a model is predictive power, that is, we can use a model to predict an outcome or observation that has not yet been made. If the prediction is correct, the model works well. The fact that the theory of evolution predicted a genetic nested hierarchy before this hierarchy was observed speaks to the power of the theory. The fact that ToE was used to correctly predict the location and nature of Tiktaalic is a pretty strong argument for the validity of the theory as well.-Can you prove that the DNA 'hierarchy' that ToE shows to be evidence of evolution is not just similar coding for similar organisms and nothing more?
This argument smacks of "Last Thursdayism", as already noted. The only direct evidence of God's creation is creation itself. If that creation is misleading, as you propose, then God must have knowingly mislead us. Is this your proposal? If not, please elaborate on the point you were attempting to make.-Can you prove or provide a rationale that God would or wouldn't initially make something 'old' form the start, as in He wouldn't create an ore of uranium already turning into lead?
I'm not sure I understand this question completely. Where is the assumption in looking at a Mississippian-aged limestone and saying 'Look! There's a fossil crinoid stem in this rock! That crinoid lived during the Mississippian.'?-Can you prove that fossils being aged are more then base assumption on their desired location in the fossil record and the rock they are found in?
Q1: Answered and shown to be based on a misunderstanding of the scientific endeavor.If you cannot solve all three of these, then you rationale is obsolete.
No. Science does not 'prove' things. Science provides us with models and theories that attempt to explain the occurrence of natural phenomenon and the processes behind these phenomenon. These models are built using evidence, and the model that best explains the evidence is the model that is accepted to be most closely fitting reality. One of the best tests of a model is predictive power, that is, we can use a model to predict an outcome or observation that has not yet been made. If the prediction is correct, the model works well. The fact that the theory of evolution predicted a genetic nested hierarchy before this hierarchy was observed speaks to the power of the theory. The fact that ToE was used to correctly predict the location and nature of Tiktaalic is a pretty strong argument for the validity of the theory as well.
What point are you making, besides ToE clearly being subjective to it's own hypothesis? God did not mislead us. We did. That is the audacious turn of Christian Deism, to amount God's Word to scientific theory.This argument smacks of "Last Thursdayism", as already noted. The only direct evidence of God's creation is creation itself. If that creation is misleading, as you propose, then God must have knowingly mislead us. Is this your proposal? If not, please elaborate on the point you were attempting to make.
Word smithing. How about ToE using assumption to base a workable idea into their canon? That is what it is. After all, it is theory, not fact, and many people have dumbed themselves down to thinking it is more. Perhaps out of uncertainty, or maybe even fear of being humiliated by their belief.I'm not sure I understand this question completely. Where is the assumption in looking at a Mississippian-aged limestone and saying 'Look! There's a fossil crinoid stem in this rock! That crinoid lived during the Mississippian.'?
The desire lies in thinking it must be part of a system. ToE just provides unrealistic explanations for what it cannot explain and somehow, by which all means hurts my soul as fellow human being, becomes noted as likely just because a bunch of PhD's salaries depend on it.At what point is observing the stratal location of a fossil imparting some 'desire' on the location of the fossil? The fossil is in the rock in which it is found, regardless of whether I desire it to be there or not.
I don't know, can you prove it without assuming the initial conditions of everything that must be exactly compliant for it to work?If I see that trilobites are always in Paleozoic strata, and never above, is that a desire of mine? Or is it simply an observation that trilobites are never found in strata younger than the Permian?
Can you prove that they existed in those times? No. You can only assume that God made everything 'brand new'. That is, we were born in an abyssal of fiery geologic hell.If I see that non-avian dinosaurs are always in Mesozoic strata, and never above or below, is that a desire of mine? Or is is simply an observation that non-avian dinosaurs existed only in the Triassic, Jurassic, and Cretaceous?
Q1: Answered and shown to be based on a misunderstanding of the scientific endeavor.
Q2: Shown to be supportive of a philosophy that requires a deceptive God, which is not Biblical.
Q3: Shown to be based on a misunderstanding of geology and the geologic column.
As a whole, your questions are ineffective because they contain false premises. Please revise them.
Sure. You seem to think that organisms only share similar DNA because they look similar (that is, they share similar phenotype-coding DNA). But most organisms that look similar also share DNA that do not code for phenotype. If this shared non-coding DNA (e.g., endogenous retroviruses) isn't due to descent with modification (evolution), how do you explain it?Can you explain how that has any bearing on anything?
We OBSERVE that their genetic makeup is similar.Prediction is a double play with ToE. Because we see like organisms, we establish that their genetic makeup is like to.
I'm not sure what 'double play' means in this context, but until you define it, I'll work from the theory that it's a brush-off. I predict, based on my theory, that you will fail to define it. I also predict that you will continue to brush-off the predictive power of ToE, even though you've got no evidence to refute this predictive power.
Noting that ToE has proven predictive power is not puffery. Please understand words before you use them.It doesn't really mean anything, except that the 'double-play serving as a puffery agent to make ToE more appealing.
No, because geochronology is not part of the theory of evolution. However, there is a mountain of geologic evidence that the earth is billions of years old, and the theory of evolution fits well into this framework.Can it predict that the world is more then 6000-12000 years old? No. It needs it to be more to be correct. God is the venue, not theory.
Building strawmen isn't as effective in debate as it is in corn farming.
The point I am making is that unless God is deceptive, earth is old and the universe is older. You understand this, you simply don't like it. That portion of my response did not deal with ToE, so your insertion of it into your response is a pretty feeble red herring. Address the content of my posts, not the content you'd like my posts to have.What point are you making, besides ToE clearly being subjective to it's own hypothesis? God did not mislead us. We did. That is the audacious turn of Christian Deism, to amount God's Word to scientific theory.
Where, specifically? What did I build?Word smithing.
Again, this portion of my response in no way addressed or is reliant upon ToE. It deals exclusively with the geologic column. Please try to address the content of my posts, not the content you'd like my posts to have.How about ToE using assumption to base a workable idea into their canon? That is what it is. After all, it is theory, not fact, and many people have dumbed themselves down to thinking it is more. Perhaps out of uncertainty, or maybe even fear of being humiliated by their belief.
Now, please tell me how observing crinoid fossils in Mississippian limestone, and making note of this, involves an assumption.
At what point does walking up to a rock, finding a shell encased in that rock, and saying 'Yo dude, come check out this shell!' require the assumption of a system? Observation is simply that: observation.The desire lies in thinking it must be part of a system.
This portion of my response in no way addressed or is reliant upon ToE. It deals exclusively with observing the physical location of fossils in sedimentary rocks. Please try to address the content of my posts, not the content you'd like my posts to have.ToE just provides unrealistic explanations for what it cannot explain and somehow, by which all means hurts my soul as fellow human being, becomes noted as likely just because a bunch of PhD's salaries depend on it.
Yep.I don't know, can you prove it without assuming the initial conditions of everything that must be exactly compliant for it to work?
Non-avian dinosaur bones and trace fossils indicative of non-avian dinosaur activity are found it terrestrial and marine deposits from the Triassic, Jurassic, and Cretaceous. Their existence in these strata is the proof that they existed when these strata were deposited. Is this difficult to understand? You're basically asking me to prove that a refrigerator with a gallon of milk in it contains milk.Can you prove that they existed in those times? No.
I'm not at all certain what you mean by this, but it doesn't appear to be grammatically or conceptually coherent. Could you please clarify?You can only assume that God made everything 'brand new'. That is, we were born in an abyssal of fiery geologic hell.
This argument is nonsensical. Even so, when we 'gauge the duration of particle movement', we get 'durations' that are consistent with an ancient earth and universe.In other words, dating things cannot determine the actual age of anything. They only gauge the duration of particle movement.
BTW, geologic ages are a relative dating system, and were defined well before absolute dating was developed. Their validity in no way depends on the accuracy of absolute dating, so your entire argument is a strawman built either from dishonesty or ignorance. I won't ask you which it is.
False.It is this kind of logic that has made people ignorant to the Bible.
Still false.The fact is, they must exist during those times for ToE to be correct. Those times do not have to exist because they are there.
Provide an example of circularity in a scientific argument, and cite the source you drew this argument from.Circularity. That is what science has inflicted to the average theist.
Your questions are based on a wholesale misunderstanding and mischaracterization of science and its postulates. This has been pointed out to you by more than one scientist, yet you continue to trumpet these questions as being the ultimate refutation of science.Lie to yourself if you will, but you failed completely at all the questions. All you did was give a visualization of someone observing things. Quite the ridiculous argument, actually.
How many times do I have to say it? I did not expect that people would actually try to answer those questions. Is it not clear that they cannot be answered in light of Deism?
You're boxing with a strawman but acting like you're beating up Manny Pacquiao. Nobody's falling for it.
This has already been answered far better than I could with my limited biological knowledge. Just because you don't understand the science doesn't mean you can just brush it off. Do some Google-ing on what you don't recognize.-Can you prove that the DNA 'hierarchy' that ToE shows to be evidence of evolution is not just similar coding for similar organisms and nothing more?
No, because I can't prove a negative. As already stated, this is last-Thursdayism. If you use this argument, you also can't prove that God created the world 6000 years ago instead of three seconds ago.-Can you prove or provide a rationale that God would or wouldn't initially make something 'old' form the start, as in He wouldn't create an ore of uranium already turning into lead?
Ah, the classsic "The rocks date the fossils and the fossils date the rocks! Zomg! Circular!" argument.-Can you prove that fossils being aged are more then base assumption on their desired location in the fossil record and the rock they are found in?
We OBSERVE that their genetic makeup is similar.
I'm not sure what 'double play' means in this context, but until you define it, I'll work from the theory that it's a brush-off. I predict, based on my theory, that you will fail to define it. I also predict that you will continue to brush-off the predictive power of ToE, even though you've got no evidence to refute this predictive power.
Noting that ToE has proven predictive power is not puffery. Please understand words before you use them.
No, because geochronology is not part of the theory of evolution. However, there is a mountain of geologic evidence that the earth is billions of years old, and the theory of evolution fits well into this framework.
Building strawmen isn't as effective in debate as it is in corn farming.
The point I am making is that unless God is deceptive, earth is old and the universe is older. You understand this, you simply don't like it. That portion of my response did not deal with ToE, so your insertion of it into your response is a pretty feeble red herring. Address the content of my posts, not the content you'd like my posts to have.
Now, please tell me how observing crinoid fossils in Mississippian limestone, and making note of this, involves an assumption.
At what point does walking up to a rock, finding a shell encased in that rock, and saying 'Yo dude, come check out this shell!' require the assumption of a system? Observation is simply that: observation.
This portion of my response in no way addressed or is reliant upon ToE. It deals exclusively with observing the physical location of fossils in sedimentary rocks. Please try to address the content of my posts, not the content you'd like my posts to have.
Non-avian dinosaur bones and trace fossils indicative of non-avian dinosaur activity are found it terrestrial and marine deposits from the Triassic, Jurassic, and Cretaceous. Their existence in these strata is the proof that they existed when these strata were deposited. Is this difficult to understand? You're basically asking me to prove that a refrigerator with a gallon of milk in it contains milk.
I like how my answering the OP questions in post #2 of this thread has been completely ignored.
Because be honest with yourself: Your argument is the same as everyone else on here.
And it is completely obsolete, to boot.
Maybe you should read the rest of Timothy and see what it says about your theology_
Just as an fyi, when you continue to repeat positions that have already been addressed - in this very thread even - you lose credibility and prove that either you're so set in your beliefs that you are unable to even consider anything else (despite the quote in your signature) or that you just have zero understanding of the subject matter. Both pretty much destroy any reason to continue this discussion.
This was challenge for evolutionists, and yet the challenge was never met. It's been about circularity, straw men, and ad hominems.
Anyone bound to ToE has this common trait. It makes wonder what the hell is the matter with some people, to be honest.
It's been about circularity, straw men, and ad hominems.
If OECs hold no credibility with you, then why make this thread? This just makes it sound like you were looking for an excuse to rip on OECs.Really? Sounds kind of conceded to me. I hold no credibility from OEC's, and they have none from me. So that is a moot point.
The way I see it, it's five on one thus far so your post just makes you a giant hypocrite. This was challenge for evolutionists, and yet the challenge was never met. It's been about circularity, straw men, and ad hominems.
Anyone bound to ToE has this common trait. It makes wonder what the hell is the matter with some people, to be honest.
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