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A challenge for creationists: evolution’s predictive power

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shernren

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Indeed, we are always thankful that creationists are Christians; however, we cannot allow creationists to represent Christians. If all who said Allelujah were indeed folks who are happy to see man tracks and dino tracks in the same rocks in Paluxy (the example that you have chosen, not me), who would want to say Allelujah any more?

We don't give thanks to God merely for long odds - as if God should somehow be thanked any less if the odds are shorter. God be praised at all times in all ways for all things, whether we understand or we don't understand, whether the chances are one in a million or really one in one. The creationist chorus would tell us evolutionists that if what we believe is true then there should be no Allelujahs at all. They would have us sing only on their terms; why should we acquiesce?

However, lets try to imagine what is really happening in TE world:

"Imagine" being the keyword ...

1. There is rejoicing at God's ability to pull off a vastly complicated exercise known in secular science as "self-organizing" (whatever the heckfire that is ) Putting on their T hats, the TEs are giving God the glory.

When have our theist hats ever been off? Again, God is to be praised at all times for all things whether we are mystified by them or not. Praise God if self-organization (which is simply dissipative systems far from equilibrium - but of course what they really are doesn't matter to you as long as you think you can cut evolutionists with them) is never explained by science; and praise God if tomorrow we unravel all the secrets of life in every corner of planet Earth. How could things ever be otherwise?


The last time I supplied a technical explanation of what randomness and self-organization are you showed no hint of any comprehension of their actual nature whatsoever. Why should I assume anything different this time? For those who are actually interested in what randomness and self-organization are (instead of those who are interested only in how much leverage they can get out of bombastic terms against evolutionists) see here: http://christianforums.com/t6985420-an-unfortunate-relapse-more-dissent-from-darwin.html&page=3 (post 22).

3. We all agree that evolution happens, at least on a micro level and within species.

And only because the physical evidence forces you to.

4. We still differ on timing, particularly where the meaning of the geologic column, astronomy, etc. are concerned. But, the overall divergence is perhaps more narrow than many thought.

Most creationists would think we differ on more than timing.


Self-organization has a mathematical definition as a physical property of certain natural systems; ID is philosophically confused hodge-podge that by the admission of its own adherents ranks as high on the intellectual tree as astrology.

AiG tears into ID as much as TEs do (doesn't cost them any credibility in creationists' eyes);
Michael Behe supports the entire macroevolutionary process including the biological evolution of man, something mark kennedy is blissfully unaware of every time he quotes him;
TEs give God all credit where evolution occurs, while IDists would give none;
evolution is a scientifically useful and successful theory while ID has never generated even a single research finding.

6. And yes, Mr. Green, it is still largely about whether God is capable of creating without death.

Michael Behe and the ID camp in general think He can't. Are you still on their side?
 
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busterdog

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vossler

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I will comment on this point because my experiences with TEs have shown that they will not praise God at all times, in all ways for all things. When they do praise Him, they do so only when they 'think' they understand the underlying 'science' of how He did it, much less if at all when they don't. Then even when they 'think' they understand the 'science' the praise is watered down by the 'science' itself because that said 'science' takes much of the glory from Him.
 
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Mallon

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I will comment on this point because my experiences with TEs have shown that they will not praise God at all times, in all ways for all things.
And what "experiences" are you referring to? Have you only dealt with evolutionary creationists online? Have you read their journals? Have you read any of their books? Do you know any in person?
Speaking as an evolutionary creationist myself, I think you're wrong. Read the PSCF. Read Perspectives on an Evolving Creation. Read Finding Darwin's God. Read Paradigms on Pilgrimage. These are all EC publications, and they all give glory to God for His creation and gift of salvation. I would still be giving glory to God in church every Sunday if the last YEC pastor I had didn't uninvite me from the Communion table for subscribing to evolution.

When they do praise Him, they do so only when they 'think' they understand the underlying 'science' of how He did it, much less if at all when they don't.
I think this statement reveals a great discordance in thinking between special creationists and evolutionary creationists. I suspect both groups praise God at all times, but evolutionary creationists would sooner give glory to God for what He has revealed to us, whereas special creationists would sooner praise Him for what He hasn't revealed to us.

Then even when they 'think' they understand the 'science' the praise is watered down by the 'science' itself because that said 'science' takes much of the glory from Him.
Case in point. You feel that science somehow takes away from God's glory by unveiling His mysteries. Perhaps you would rather live in a time when we knew much less about how the world works, such as the Dark Ages?
I feel that science only serves to enhance God's glory by showing us how God acts in the world. PRAISE GOD FOR SCIENCE! AND PRAISE GOD FOR REVEALING HIS ACTIONS TO US THROUGH THIS DISCERNABLE WORLD HE HAS CREATED!!!
 
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busterdog

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A very fair criticism, but it does not it mean that we YECs don't fail at the same thing.
 
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Molal

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A very fair criticism, but it does not it mean that we YECs don't fail at the same thing.
I think that YEC,s OEC, TE's and every christian on the planet has sinned in this manner. We all try to be Christ like and sinless.
 
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vossler

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A very fair criticism, but it does not it mean that we YECs don't fail at the same thing.
Without a doubt I know I have.

The point here wasn't to imply that YECs don't, just that, in my experience, TEs can't seem to praise him even when clearly being presented with the opportunity or when shown they haven't. Will some YECs do likewise, sure but the percentage isn't nearly as high and more importantly when shown that they are negligent in this area they are far more apt to repent and see their mistake. TEs tend to be inclined to make excuses.
 
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gluadys

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In my Christian walk, I see only that things grow worse and not better for the world. Every supposed "natural man" fix creates a two or more additional problems.

Basically off-topic. Evolution is not about things getting better or worse. You must be talking about something else.

Yet the evolutionist sees that somehow all species are the children of one specie and Father Time....

"specie" is a term referring to gold coins.

Living populations are always "species" even when there is only one of them. [/pedant]
 
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gluadys

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LOL! You're joking right? Tell me you're joking...

It may not be about ultimate origins to you, because you are a compromising TE.

No, I am a regular, ordinary TE, not a compromising one.

But, it is definitely about 'ultimate' origins for a large group of atheistic evos in the world.

So what? The opinions of atheists are not a valid determiner of what a scientific theory is about.

Evolution has never been about ultimate origins.

Those atheists who claim it is are misrepresenting the science for their own agenda.

(Note there are many atheists who respect science enough not to make incorrect claims like these.)

when in fact, there is not one shred of evidence for it having occured, or being able to occur,

We can go over the evidence if you like. I find most creationists get stopped by the phrase "distribution of alleles".
 
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