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The age of the earth has fascinated me for some time now. The thought that Genesis is an accurate historical account just seems to make sense to me, and I don't see a compelling argument against it. Ridicule seems to be the main argument against it.
Exactly.I quit bothering, after explaining why I changed from an evolutionist, into a believer in the Scriptures, and was attacked by hit and run atheist, whos attacks were defended by TE Christians. And no, by attack I don't mean a debate, I mean verbal assaults.
I realize the indoctrination of evolutionary thought has permeated all aspects of society, but on a Christian board, I thought why bother offering up my honest opinion, only to be slashed for it.
I can do that for the lost out in the world, where it really matters, not some place where people come to get their smug jollies, by attacking people who disagree with them, no thanks.
I quit bothering, after explaining why I changed from an evolutionist, into a believer in the Scriptures, and was attacked by hit and run atheist, whos attacks were defended by TE Christians. And no, by attack I don't mean a debate, I mean verbal assaults.
I realize the indoctrination of evolutionary thought has permeated all aspects of society, but on a Christian board, I thought why bother offering up my honest opinion, only to be slashed for it.
I can do that for the lost out in the world, where it really matters, not some place where people come to get their smug jollies, by attacking people who disagree with them, no thanks.
And, perhaps most reprehensibly, a long series of communications discussing how best to squeeze dissenting scientists out of the peer review process. How, in other words, to create a scientific climate in which anyone who disagrees with AGW can be written off as a crank, whose views do not have a scrap of authority.
I quit bothering, after explaining why I changed from an evolutionist, into a believer in the Scriptures, and was attacked by hit and run atheist, whos attacks were defended by TE Christians. And no, by attack I don't mean a debate, I mean verbal assaults.
I realize the indoctrination of evolutionary thought has permeated all aspects of society, but on a Christian board, I thought why bother offering up my honest opinion, only to be slashed for it.
I can do that for the lost out in the world, where it really matters, not some place where people come to get their smug jollies, by attacking people who disagree with them, no thanks.
Hi,
I am fairly new to the C/E debates but seriously into. We do want to train Polish believers in answering evolutionary arguments. We have Biblical Creationist Society in Poland and we plan to expand our conference outreaches.
We see that some of the Kent Hovind's arguments are still valid, but some needs to be updated.
I find a lot of plain lies on evolutionists posts and wander how to deal with that. There are too many of them to answer in the reasonable time.
Greetings
Stasiek
Intelligent Design is peer-reviewed.What about peer review?
What about peer review?
What about peer review?
What about peer reivew?
It is like the crimson tide itself
"It has been my sad observation that by mid-career there are very few professionals left truly working for the advancement of science, as opposed to the advancement of self. And given enough people with strong enough interests, professional peer pressure takes over from there. Peer pressure in science, as elsewhere in society, consists of alternately attacking and ignoring the people who advocate a contrary idea, and discrediting their motives and/or competence, in order to achieve conformity." -- Tom Van Flandern, astronomer, 1993Well, peer review is still a matter of absolute unfailing reliability when you already know you are right.
What about peer review?
WHat about peer review?
What about peer review?
(etc)
Keep it simple, that's usually best. Some of the things that evolutionists don't want you to know, First there are no chimpanzee ancestor fossils to compare human ancestors to. Every time a chimpanzee ancestor like Taung is unearthed it is automatically labeled Homo XXX. The Taung Child replaced one of the most successful frauds in the history of science: Piltdown Man
That's just an example but what is truely amazing, sound arguments against chimpanzee/human common ancestry is readily available in the scientific literature. Let me show you the biggest problem with this:
Why is simple enough:
If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down. But I can find out no such case. No doubt many organs exist of which we do not know the transitional grades, more especially if we look to much-isolated species, round which, according to my theory, there has been much extinction. Or again, if we look to an organ common to all the members of a large class, for in this latter case the organ must have been first formed at an extremely remote period, since which all the many members of the class have been developed; and in order to discover the early transitional grades through which the organ has passed, we should have to look to very ancient ancestral forms, long since become extinct. (Darwin, Origin of SpeciesChapter 6 - Difficulties on Theory)
Here's the problem with the three-fold expansion of the human brain from that of apes, mutations in the genes involved always result in disease and disorder when they have an effect.
I really don't have a problem with Hovinid or AIG or any of the other creationist groups out there. However, what I have relied on are the actual scientific articles in peer reviewed scientific journals for the weight of my arguments. If you want to really give them something to think about order this free poster:
Then go through and highlight the diseases and disorders effecting the human brain. Then challenge anyone to demonstrate a single beneficial effect from a mutation in one of the genes involved in brain development.
My point is simply this, don't worry about all the questions, there aren't that many to worry about. Focus on the core questions and evolution crumbles like a house of cards.
Fight the good fight!
Grace and peace,
Mark
Always is a strong word.
Language
I would just like to point out that the challenge of finding a beneficial brain mutation would be very difficult for a few reasons.
1: ethics. What are we going to do, poke around with a bunch of newly fertilized zygotes and go "hey, let's muck up a human genome and possible cripple someone for life while we play around with mutations!"?
2. Obviousness of said mutation: Alterations to the physical structure of the brain are not exactly easily visible, unless said person donates their body to science (not normally done) or dies in a way that needs an autopsy that doesn't destroy the brain (unfortunately, fairly common), and the alteration is obviously visible (would be very rare). But things like... nerve axon sheaths (the things that are involved in Alzheimer's when they break down) aren't exactly visible when viewed with the naked eye, so there would have to be a reason for such close examination of a dead person's brain, and then sequencing the person's entire genome and figuring out which mutation caused it... That's quite an undertaking.
No, I'm not saying it doesn't happen. No, I'm not saying I can present one. No, I'm not saying it's an unreasonable thing to look for. What I am saying is just how difficult it would be to figure out how/where in the genome/to whom it happened due to practicality and ethics.
And I would say that insisting that one be presented or it be taken as being impossible is a bit unreasonable. That's the type of thinking that leads to "Well, provide a testable example of God or he's not real" down the line.
Metherion
I am completely unfamiliar with the term ‘knockout genes’. Sorry.I'm not suggesting 'knockout' genes or anything of the sort. What I am stating clearly is that there are dozens of mutations effecting the human brain documented in the scientific literature and their all bad.
If the individule died of some kind of a brain related genetic mutation they are already going to have all they need in Genbank. Type, 'brain related genetic mutations' into your google search engine and you will get a list like this:
We know of many that are negative. This is true. We also know of many other negative mutations on most other organs, and ones not even linked to organs (like Down’s Syndrome).I'm just saying look at what we do know about mutations affecting the human brain.
But then we would be observing brains of common ancestors, which didn’t fossilize and are rather hard to come by, so we go by other evidence such as fossils and morphology. A lack of studies, criteria, methodology for determining positive mutations in CURRENT human brains is in no way evidence AGAINST or even contraindicative or what I already listed.With science it's either directly observed or demonstrated or it does not count, except with regards to human evolution.
Actually, it is. “We have no evidence of current beneficial mutations to our brains” does not translate to “all the fossils, morphology, etc for the evolution of man is wrong by default.”This is not an unreasonable objection to the unquestioned assumption that we descended from modified apes
Yes, he did. And as a matter of fact, I recently watched something on it was either the discovery channel or the history channel about human evolution, and how there is (in other primates) a ridge that divides the optical part of the brain from the rest of it, that is gone in humans, and in the fossils it can be observed by doing casts on the inside of the brain that it moved back until it disappeared. I’m sorry I don’t remember any names, and that it is really vague information to google, but... if you do find it I hope you enjoy it. And if you can’t, well, I’m sorry my memory isn’t better to give you a name of SOMETHING, either the show, or an expert involved, or the name of that brain ridge. Maybe Sphinx will come up with somethingDarwin even said that if there was an organ that could not be accounted for by gradually accumulated, slight and successive steps his theory would fall apart.
I'm not even demanding proof,
When you can't produce such a mutation you will admit (by omission) that this is impossible via mutations.
But that’s all it is, negative evidence. Also, are there even any STUDIES on beneficial brain mutations? Mass recordings of individuals’ brainpower (which would be hard to quantify much less record everything from that person’s life and set up some sort of nature v nurture standard), complete genome analysis for all involved, criteria for what beneficial mutations are/do, not to mention the timescale and ethics involved, because you’d have to start when they are newborn children or perhaps even unborn. It would be a huge undertaking. Now, if such a study had been DONE and produced no results on positive mutations, then that would be a rather big deal. However, in this case, I would put forth that the absence of a well defined study is NOT equivalent to absence of possibility. Absence of evidence, sure. But absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, and with no studies to provide either evidence of absence, or just plain evidence, I would submit that the lack of papers on such things is not in any way negative evidence.I'm putting both the negative evidence for human/chimp common ancestry
Now, I may be misunderstanding you here, and I apologize if I am, but witnessing to the New Testament really doesn’t involve science, much less creationism v evolution.and standing ready to give a defense for the New Testament witness.
I am completely unfamiliar with the term knockout genes. Sorry.
And Im not disputing the fact that there are bad brain mutations, dont get me wrong. But the fact remains that experimenting to find beneficial ones would be potentially unethical.
I would also like to point out that if any change to the human brain were to be reversed, as it were (say, in the common ancestor it was WXYZ and in humans it is WWXYZ, and for the sake of argument the extra W was beneficial by example fiat), would not a mutation that got rid of the extra W be detrimental, even if it is just an undoing of a previous mutation? I mean, it will make the person less fit that human normal, which would be a genetic disease, but the brain would still work, no? Well, in some of them.
Im sorry. My brain got ahead of my fingers, and when i reread what I typed, I knew what I wanted to say and I read it there even tho it wasnt. So... let me try again.
Yes, there are deaths due to mutations that are detrimental to the brain. No argument there. But, why would positive mutations be documented? I mean, if a person is smarter than normal, or more resistant to alzheimers than normal but dies before hed be of age to contract it (and not all people do so it wouldnt necessarily be noticed), or so on, how or why would it be noticed and/or documented? It is not routine to sequence someones DNA whenever anybody anywhere dies, unless Im missing out on something big. And since brains are delicate and messing around with them is discouraged, poking inside every extraordinarily smart persons brains would be a very bad idea, and wouldnt even get anywhere near all the potential positive mutations.
Also, what would be considered a beneficial mutation? We would need a list of criteria to fit to that as well. I could see a great many things fitting it. A brain that burns even 1% fewer calories. A brain that computes certain things extra well. A brain that processes faster. A brain with a photographic memory (I know those exist, but I dont know if it is genetic). And so on. The problems of deciding what would be beneficial, and how to screen for them, and so on are monumental.
We know of many that are negative. This is true. We also know of many other negative mutations on most other organs, and ones not even linked to organs (like Downs Syndrome).
But then we would be observing brains of common ancestors, which didnt fossilize and are rather hard to come by, so we go by other evidence such as fossils and morphology. A lack of studies, criteria, methodology for determining positive mutations in CURRENT human brains is in no way evidence AGAINST or even contraindicative or what I already listed.
Actually, it is. We have no evidence of current beneficial mutations to our brains does not translate to all the fossils, morphology, etc for the evolution of man is wrong by default.
Yes, he did. And as a matter of fact, I recently watched something on it was either the discovery channel or the history channel about human evolution, and how there is (in other primates) a ridge that divides the optical part of the brain from the rest of it, that is gone in humans, and in the fossils it can be observed by doing casts on the inside of the brain that it moved back until it disappeared. Im sorry I dont remember any names, and that it is really vague information to google, but... if you do find it I hope you enjoy it. And if you cant, well, Im sorry my memory isnt better to give you a name of SOMETHING, either the show, or an expert involved, or the name of that brain ridge. Maybe Sphinx will come up with something
Ah, but you are, as you stated
Which comes across as show an example (proof) or it is false.
But thats all it is, negative evidence. Also, are there even any STUDIES on beneficial brain mutations? Mass recordings of individuals brainpower (which would be hard to quantify much less record everything from that persons life and set up some sort of nature v nurture standard), complete genome analysis for all involved, criteria for what beneficial mutations are/do, not to mention the timescale and ethics involved, because youd have to start when they are newborn children or perhaps even unborn. It would be a huge undertaking. Now, if such a study had been DONE and produced no results on positive mutations, then that would be a rather big deal. However, in this case, I would put forth that the absence of a well defined study is NOT equivalent to absence of possibility. Absence of evidence, sure. But absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, and with no studies to provide either evidence of absence, or just plain evidence, I would submit that the lack of papers on such things is not in any way negative evidence.
On the other hand, it would be quite easy to find NEGATIVE mutations as there is already a defined range of normal brain function, and problems that bring a person below that would be far more noticeable and quantifiable than figuring out the difference between a person who is just plain smart and a person with a supergene for intelligence. And in order to find out what was wrong, genome sequencing on the sick would be much more routine than those of the healthy, no?
Now, I may be misunderstanding you here, and I apologize if I am, but witnessing to the New Testament really doesnt involve science, much less creationism v evolution.
Metherion
I didn’t know that. Cool, thanks for sharing.One of the ways geneticists find out what a gene does is the knock one out through recombination.
Yes, it is, but as such it isn’t linked to a particular organ or gene. And you already said thatDown's Syndrome is an extra chromosome BTW. Down's Syndrome also results in mental retardation and if random mutations were producing beneficial effects we would have learned of them by now.
Which indicates that there ARE beneficial mutations.Now, modern science relishes the opportunity to describe the many beneficial mutations they have discovered.
First fossil chimpanzee. [Nature. 2005] - PubMed resultChimpanzee ancestor are conspicuously absent in the fossil record going back tens of millions of years. The reason is that every time one is unearthed it's automatically celebrated as one of our ancestors.
Completely out of my field of knowledge. BUT, if I had to guess, looking at the abstract of the article I just linked, it would likely be location.Give me one good reason this could not be a chimpanzee ancestor:
"The Taung Child"
But if there isn’t time nor means for it to have evolved then it MUST be wrong, because for it to have evolved is an impossibility, and therefore anything showing it to have evolved is incorrect. No?I don't say they are wrong, I'm saying that many of them are just apes and there is neither the time nor the means for the human brain to have evolved from that of apes.
Yes, I know it wasn’t worth much. BUT in between now and then, I did some research and remembered it.Well, thanks for sharing but I'm a little limited on my net time right now so I'll just have to take what you said for what it's worth.
I would completely disagree. Being unable to isolate single gene changes that are undisputedly beneficial today is not equal to starting with a different and more primitive brain in a completely different environment working towards what we have today.Just pointing out facts as they become obvious. Either there is a directly observed or demonstrated molecular mechanism or it's reasonable to conclude that chimpanzee/human common ancestry is based on presupposition not scientific evidence.
but then went on to state such things asNow, modern science relishes the opportunity to describe the many beneficial mutations they have discovered.
...
Beneficial effects from mutations are well documented in the scientific literature
which leaves me quite in the dark at your apparent self-contradiction on whether or not any beneficial mutations ever actually happen.The problem is that they have done that on a vast scale and no beneficial effect of any kind has been discovered.
Dear one, consider the meaning of the word you are using here. What does the word science mean? You could define it with a single word.
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