A Brief Look at Romans 8:29 from a lay-Calvinist perspective

[AndOne]

In regards to Romans 8:29 I have often heard the argument made that the word "foreknown" means that God foresaw who would believe and elected his people based upon that knowledge. I am not at all convinced this is what the word is supposed to mean but rather it means that God would elect his people based upon an intimate knowledge of a people he chose to save before creation.

The "foreknown" based upon "fore-knowledge" argument just doesn't make sense in light of what is being pointed out by the apostle - namely that those predestined were done so "to be conformed to the image of his son in order that he might be the first born among many brothers." I don't see in the text any indication of a fore-knowing event that happened before time. Instead I see an active choice made before time which is hammered home in the following verse.

Seems to me that if God fore-knew who would believe and based his choice upon that action then it would plainly say so. Wouldn't it make sense for Paul to plainly say in the text - "God knew who would believe so he predestined them based on that knowledge" if that is what he meant? Instead the passage just simply states "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined..." If he was saving someone based upon fore-knowing their future actions why is the word "also" there? Wouldn't it make sense for that word to be something along the lines of "would" and the word "predestined" to be present tense rather than future tense? Why does Paul not simply say "For those whom he foreknew he would (one day in the future) predestine"? The fact of the matter is that is not what is said and as you can see it takes quite a bit of manipulation to get it to mean that - whereas if you let the verse stand on its own you see that God is not basing his actions upon a future known event at all. If he is then verse 30 doesn't make much since.

Just something to think about folks... Blessings to you al...

 

[RC1970]

Correct. The foreknowing is of people not of their actions.

 

[SinnerInTheHands]

Seems to me that if God fore-knew who would believe and based his choice upon that action then it would plainly say so. Wouldn't it make sense for Paul to plainly say in the text - "God knew who would believe so he predestined them based on that knowledge" if that is what he meant? Instead the passage just simply states "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined..." If he was saving someone based upon fore-knowing their future actions why is the word "also" there? Wouldn't it make sense for that word to be something along the lines of "would" and the word "predestined" to be present tense rather than future tense? Why does Paul not simply say "For those whom he foreknew he would (one day in the future) predestine"? The fact of the matter is that is not what is said and as you can see it takes quite a bit of manipulation to get it to mean that - whereas if you let the verse stand on its own you see that God is not basing his actions upon a future known event at all. If he is then verse 30 doesn't make much since.

This question comes up a lot within Reformed circles, and I'll do my best to try and answer it. The simple fact of the matter is that God's predestination has nothing to do with a foreknowledge of our faith, belief, or works. Rather, faith and works are the fruits of, and not the roots of, our salvation.

Here's a revised layout of a proof of Calvinism I made for another thread that'll help explain I'm trying to say:

1] God has an elect people He has chosen to grant salvation.

"Yet the Lord set His heart in love on your fathers and chose their offspring after them, you above all peoples, as you are this day." [Deuteronomy 10:15]

"And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect." [Matthew 24:22-24]

"And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." [Matthew 24:31]

"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of Him who sent me. And this is the will of Him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that He has given me, but raise it up on the last day." [John 6:37-39]

"And He said, 'This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.'" [John 6:65]

"I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours." [John 17:9]

"And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare His own Son but gave Him up for us all, how will He not also with Him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies." [Romans 8:28-33]

"So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace." [Romans 11:5]

"Even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will." [Ephesians 1:4-5]

"In Him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of his will." [Ephesians 1:11]

"For we know, brothers loved by God, that He has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction. You know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake." [1 Thessalonians 1:4-5]

"For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." [1 Thessalonians 5:9]

"But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the first fruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth." [2 Thessalonians 2:13]

"To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with His blood." [1 Peter 1:1-2]

"They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do. But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light." [1 Peter 2:8-9]​

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2] God's choice was not based on any foreseen faith or good works.

"For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. It was not because you were more in number than any other people that the Lord set his love on you and chose you, for you were the fewest of all peoples, but it is because the Lord loves you and is keeping the oath that He swore to your fathers, that the Lord has brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt." [Deuteronomy 7:6-8]

"Though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad - in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of Him who calls - she was told, 'The older will serve the younger.' As it is written, 'Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.'" [Romans 9:11-13]

"So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy." [Romans 9:16]

"But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, so that no human being might boast in the presence of God." [1 Corinthians 1:27-29]

"Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of His own purpose and grace, which He gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began." [2 Timothy 1:9]​

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3] Faith and good works are the results, not the grounds, of predestination.

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed." [Acts 13:48]

"And when he wished to cross to Achaia, the brothers encouraged him and wrote to the disciples to welcome him. When he arrived, he greatly helped those who through grace had believed." [Acts 18:27]

"So that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of His glory." [Ephesians 1:12]

"For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." [Ephesians 2:10]

"For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in Him but also suffer for His sake." [Philippians 1:29]

"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure." [Philippians 2:12-13]

"For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction. You know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake." [1 Thessalonians 1:4-5]

"But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the first fruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. To this He called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." [2 Thessalonians 2:13-14]
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4] Repentance and faith are divine gifts resulting from the regenerating work of God, not the cause of it.

"God exalted Him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins." [Acts 5:31]

"When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, 'Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.'" [Acts 11:18]

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed." [Acts 13:48]

"One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul." [Acts 16:14]

"And when he wished to cross to Achaia, the brothers encouraged him and wrote to the disciples to welcome him. When he arrived, he greatly helped those who through grace had believed." [Acts 18:27]

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." [Ephesians 2:8-9]

"For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in Him but also suffer for His sake." [Philippians 1:29]

"God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will." [2 Timothy 2:25-26]​