A "Boneheaded" teaching subforum needed?

Plan 9 · May 28, 2004

I don't understand many of the thread discussions here because I don't have the needed subtext, am told I am off-topic when I don't have the required learning to comprehend that, and possibly couldn't conform strictly to the topic if I did know.
In addition, I have noticed that other visitors who ask elementary questions are referred to older threads on the subject, so I try not to ask any which might fall into that range, not because I don't understand how tedious it can be to repeat yourselves, but because I can ask no questions of a thread, or for that matter, of a site.
Also, some of my questions appear to have been seen as adversarial, because others in the past have asked similar questions for reasons unconnected with a desire to learn, having already made up their minds that they are correct, and you are not. If this is true, I also understand why.
At least one other fora has an area devoted devoted to its catechumens, and I was thinking that a sort of MJ 101 might be helpful to those members who don't feel a calling to teach us, as well as to us, who are starting from zero.
This may be a boneheaded idea in itself. If so, please feel free to ignore it.

Hix · May 28, 2004

Shalom, thats not boneheaded at all Planny, its not a bad suggestion since we get alot of visitors in asking questions constantly and usually on the same topics.
Perhaps an upgrade of the FAQ thread to include links to other posts explaining the Messianic outlook on things would be helpfull. Its important that those who come to learn are able to do so!

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

Plan 9 · May 28, 2004

Hix said:
Shalom, thats not boneheaded at all Planny, its not a bad suggestion since we get alot of visitors in asking questions constantly and usually on the same topics.
Perhaps an upgrade of the FAQ thread to include links to other posts explaining the Messianic outlook on things would be helpfull. Its important that those who come to learn are able to do so!

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

Shalom, Hix!

Extra links are always given when we ask here, but links are limited in their usefulness when we have no teacher. I can read approximately 600 words
and could well before I entered university; even so, I find self education is a slow process, full of pitfalls, even though I was careful to take nine hours of uni philosophy classes to teach me how. Self education is nothing a minefield for most people who don't have the many advantages my family were able to give me.

iitb · May 28, 2004

Pray4Isrel said:
2. We could maintain an exhaustive FAQ thread that would encompass more than it currently does now.

What do you all think?

At some point it will encompass more than it does, I've just been busy.

sojeru · May 28, 2004

I think that number two would be very good
an exhaustive Faq with ehaustive definitions.
Then each time a person were to ask a question- whether it be repetitive or not they could easily be linked to that post on the FAQ or at least copy the portions of the FAQ that deal with the question asked...

and if someone wishes to expound they can do so

but all in all, it sounds like a good idea

Plan 9 · May 28, 2004

My browser won't allow me to start a poll, which would have been far easier for everyone, but so far, I'm counting all "nays"? Or not?

Btw, we all have terms we wrongly assume that our readers will know, and I have just discovered out that "bonehead/boneheaded" may be one of those. For those who may not be already aware, this is a collegiate term for those students who didn't receive adequate enough prior instruction to do sufficiently well in a university 101 class, and a "bonehead" class is meant to do double duty by bringing them up to speed. It doesn't refer to intelligence, or lack thereof, but to educational gaps which have resulted in ignorance on the part of the student. They are quite hard work, as a matter of fact, since you must leave them having all the requisite knowledge for the next class up in the subject, and students taking them are rarely called "boneheads" themselves, expect by those better prepared students who have a strange need to look down on someone for something.

simchat_torah · May 28, 2004

I completely understand where you are coming from Planny.

On the other hand...
I do think that the FAQ does address a lot though. So many come and ask questions that are right there in a sticky at the top. I know that Justin and others have put a good deal of work into the FAQ and it seems kinda like a waste to copy/paste answers.

I think that we all need a bit of humbling once in awhile. No matter how 'knowledgeable' I may be in MJ'ism, there is always someone who knows more than myself. I have to remember that at one point I was where many are who come here simply asking questions. I need to be humble and not proud in answering them straightforward. I know that we all often fall short of simplicity.

Anywho... I'm beginning to ramble, and I've been at work faaar too long today... time for a nap.

*zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz... *

Plan 9 · May 28, 2004

Pray4Isrel said:
Here's a couple of ideas:
1. We could create a Messianic 101 thread where new members or visitors to MJ can ask questions repetitively. It would be a giant thread, but very helpful nonetheless. Even if someone's already asked the question in the thread already, it could be a continuous running thread where people can pop in to ask any and every question thinkable pertaining to MJ.

That would certainly solve my off-topic problem, wouldn't it?

2. We could maintain an exhaustive FAQ thread that would encompass more than it currently does now.

I'm already favorable impressed with the FAC section here, and the fact that it's a work in progress speaking very much in its favor, not the reverse.
Justin, you should take a look at my pathetic, but endless efforts to keep up with the reference threads in my Star Trek role playing game; players always have questions, and I answer hundreds via PM, too, yet it's only a Srar Trek, and nowhere as complex (or as important) as the aims of your FAQs,
I resolved that players with little or Star Trek knowledge (a few have never seen a single show set in the time period I chose), and who have English as their second language, should be enabled to play as fully as those of us who are Trek fans. I can barely keep ahead of my engineers' questions alone, Trekkers or not.
No one appreciates a good FAQs section more than I and a good one is always in progress.

I use a lot of images; pictures really do seem to be worth a thousand words at times. Had you thought of having a FAQs image thread, which would show such beautiful items as Menorahs?
Is it possible that only a few of us at CF have seen a shofar? There might even be a sound file of one being blown out there somewhere...okay, this idea is stupid. Sorry.

Plan 9 · May 28, 2004

simchat_torah said:
I completely understand where you are coming from Planny.

On the other hand...
I do think that the FAQ does address a lot though. So many come and ask questions that are right there in a sticky at the top. I know that Justin and others have put a good deal of work into the FAQ and it seems kinda like a waste to copy/paste answers.

If that is all you intend doing, then yes, copying and pasting generic answers is a waste of time. Of course that also means I could have saved a lot of time, hard work, and money on my higher education, and lurking here, as I once did, would work just as well? Of course, I dropped those classes with teachers who presented me with such generic offerings, and just had us read our texts.

Yafet, the point of my asking for this is to allow us newer seekers to stay out of the way of those of you who feel you have neither the gift or desire to do elementary teaching, not to force you to do what you may rightly feel is a waste of your time.
We once had a Messianic Judaism synagogue here, and were they still a going concern, I know there would be someone there who wanted to teach me.
An Orthodox Jewish friend has assured me that I could ask a Rabbi of her faith any question, gentile that I am, but that's not an option for me either, as it turns out.

visionary · May 28, 2004

One of the facts that I love about MJ's is the on going learning process of all the believers within, there is no doctrine or creed that does not need tweeking when the Holy Spirit shines upon it in a far brighter light than has shone on it before and there fore have learned that the MJ's attitude is let it be deeper into the Word of God, and let it shine forth with the truth as is it found in Yeshua and the Torah. In order to do this they hold no doctrine or creed so dear that it becomes more important that Yeshua or the Torah in truth. That to me is one of the most brilliant truths that all congregations that claim to be following the Lord should have, or how else can we grow spiritually and hear the calling that comes with eery generation for our time. I guess that comes from following the lives of over 6,000 years of believers who through their lives have helped us learn more about how we should live ours especially now in our ever changing spiritual environment. My second most favorite philosophy that MJ's have is the, you are home, come grow with us spiritually, come as you are in faith, and learn what else the Lord has in store for you. Let us share in the wealth of His Glory and knowledge, and tolerate the differences we all come from. Always looking for that grain of truth, that plant in the Lord's vineyard, and the fruit from our fellow brethren's labors in the Torah. Blessings to be found from all the Lord's servants, good for the community and with the Lord's blessings upon it, it will take root and grow up to the full stature of Christ and make Torah bright.

As far as learning, it will always be an ongoing process for us all, and those who are new to this line of thinking, may we have the patience and tolerance to go over those points that are in question, for they too may be just what we need to re-examine.

Then there are favorite questions, the common ones that for their repeated entries on the forum have become something that should be posted as a sticky.....may we have as many stickies as it takes to cover the most common questions. I love the idea of picture stickies for the 101 class. For many who have not seen the Temple of God, who have never been given the tour of all the articles and their placement, let alone the spiritual implications, there are so many lessons and insights that they may be a delight for us to cover in some decided manner. For many who have not been through the seven feasts of God, it would be a delightful lesson for that to be covered with all the insights gathered within. If these two things were covered in a organized manner in the sticky section, so that those who are learning can go to there and see and read those things others have posted on the subject and gain the insights in an organized manner. It may be beneficial for us also, in the construction of it, we may be organizing our own minds on the beauty and ingenious organization of the Lord in the placement of it all. I do not know the rules of stickies...so do not know if it is even possible.

Just thoughts for you all to consider.
Visionary

Plan 9 · May 28, 2004

visionary said:
As far as learning, it will always be an ongoing process for us all, and those who are new to this line of thinking, may we have the patience and tolerance to go over those points that are in question, for they too may be just what we need to re-examine.

I have found it true myself that I learn more about what I already thought I knew from attempting to teach it to another. I have also found this adage of C.S. Lewis's true, which goes something like this: "If you can't explain something clearly and simply to someone else, it may be that you don't really understand it yourself."

I love the idea of picture stickies for the 101 class. For many who have not seen the Temple of God, who have never been given the tour of all the articles and their placement, let alone the spiritual implications, there are so many lessons and insights that they may be a delight for us to cover in some decided manner. For many who have not been through the seven feasts of God, it would be a delightful lesson for that to be covered with all the insights gathered within. If these two things were covered in a organized manner in the sticky section, so that those who are learning can go to there and see and read those things others have posted on the subject and gain the insights in an organized manner. It may be beneficial for us also, in the construction of it, we may be organizing our own minds on the beauty and ingenious organization of the Lord in the placement of it all. I do not know the rules of stickies...so do not know if it is even possible.

I think that "sticky rules" aren't hard and fast, but such threads should prove helpful? There was just a discussion on this in another forum, but our mods would know better.
It occured to me because my short time in Israel made the Bible come alive for me, and because I deeply love the avatars and sigs here which show such things, and because if they're so helpful in an RPG, or in the back of ones' Bible (and I no longer have a Bible with images, charts, diagrams and maps ), they might be equally helpful here?
They're aren't that difficult for someone like myself to assemble; I have had much practice, a website from which I can attach them, and the necessary free time. Also, many members here may have favorite images they'd like to contribute.

simchat_torah · May 28, 2004

Yafet, the point of my asking for this is to allow us newer seekers to stay out of the way of those of you who feel you have neither the gift or desire to do elementary teaching, not to force you to do what you may rightly feel is a waste of your time.

Oh my no... I'd never want to give this impression. Its just that most elementary topics have already been discussed somewhere and with my limited time budget afforded to me by my new job... its just easier (note: lazier ) for me to point the user to the previously discussed thread.

But never would I want someone to think that they are lesser of nature!!! heavens no.

Plan 9 · May 30, 2004

simchat_torah said:
[/color]

Oh my no... I'd never want to give this impression. Its just that most elementary topics have already been discussed somewhere and with my limited time budget afforded to me by my new job... its just easier (note: lazier ) for me to point the user to the previously discussed thread.

This is exactly the sort of situation I meant.

But never would I want someone to think that they are lesser of nature!!! heavens no.

...but not this. I'm already well aware that you don't feel this way, Yafet.

I have caused potentiallly hurtful misconceptions, while failing to get my idea across, such as it was.
Let's all forgrt this thread exists, shall we?

Henaynei · May 30, 2004

It is usually my hope and desire that when folks ask MJ 101 questions and are referred to links with information, that they read those and THEN come back into the forum with questions based on when they have read.

Some folks do that - others don't. They usually get much better response when that happens - no always, but usually.....

Plan 9 · May 31, 2004

Yes, Henny; that would be the logical thing to do, and I haven't proposed that that not be first be done.
As I said, I withdraw the idea; it's only causing misconception after misconception.
Please close the thread now?

Sephania · Jun 1, 2004

Plan9 I believe I understand what you are looking for. I would be happy to start a type of "Hebrew primer" with pictures and Hebrew words ( that othes could contribute to) and their meaning if it's OK with the staff. I am currently working on a soft messianic Hebrew book for little ones and would be happy to extend that here. It would be something like this:

Shofar - The Hebrew word for Horn. It can be a ram's horn or silver trumpet. blown during ceremonies in the Temple. Modern use it is blown on Rosh Hashanah the Feast of the Trumpets, one of the fall feasts. Also in Messianic synagogues it is used in worship when the spirit leads. Sometimes referred to as the voice of HaShem.

Hebrew spelling reading right to left - Shin Vav Pey Resh

Click here to see the Hebrew word

Click here to go here the different blasts of the Shofar

Or here to hear the shofar

A yemenite Shofar

A ram's horn Shofar

I hope you are not upset that I still posted in here, I love to teach, in fact some of the elders of my shul are wooing me to teach Shabbat School, I am still praying about this though, but love to teach.

Plan 9 · Jun 1, 2004

YES! *does happy dance* That's all I'm talking about!! A PRIMER! YES! For us grown-up kids!! With images (not links to images). You even have a sound file, which is the best part in the case of the shofar!
These threads work, they educate, they draw and enchant visitors, and they're just plain fun! People really enjoy image threads, so they want to read the text and click the links, and we have almost none at CF.
Thank you, Henny!

I had a friend who had a drunken bonehead lit 101. My friend was a medical student, and had to make an A anyhow. One of the books the teacher was The Chosen. When my friend showed me the glossary of terms she'd been given, nearly all of them were wrong!! That glossary would have have that wonderful book almost entirely incromprehenssble.

Sephania · Jun 1, 2004

Zayit or Zayith

Hebrew for Olive

http://www-ang.kfunigraz.ac.at/~katzer/engl/spice_photo.html#olea_eur http://www-ang.kfunigraz.ac.at/~katzer/engl/spice_photo.html#olea_eur

Or Olive branch

Yiddish - Eylbert, Masline

Zayit - spelling from right to left: tzade yod tet (Tza-y-t)

Middle word on the bottle on this page http://www.milon.co.il/dict094.htm

( can't post picture because of CR)

The olive branch is pictured on many a Torah Mantle (covering for the torah scroll) as it denotes 'Shalom' ( peace) and also the oil from the olive is what was used to fill the Menorah (7-branched lampstand) in the temple.

Torah mantle with Shalom in Hebrew and the Olive branch.

Sephania · Jun 1, 2004

Plan, if the staff is willing to do this maybe you can make a list of things to start with that you would like to learn about and I can go from there.

Plan 9 · Jun 1, 2004

Zayit said:
Zayit or Zayith

Hebrew for Olive

http://www-ang.kfunigraz.ac.at/~katzer/engl/spice_photo.html#olea_eur http://www-ang.kfunigraz.ac.at/~katzer/engl/spice_photo.html#olea_eur

Or Olive branch

Yiddish - Eylbert, Masline

Zayit - spelling from right to left: tzade yod tet (Tza-y-t)

Middle word on the bottle on this page http://www.milon.co.il/dict094.htm

( can't post picture because of CR)

The olive branch is pictured on many a Torah Mantle (covering for the torah scroll) as it denotes 'Shalom' ( peace) and also the oil from the olive is what was used to fill the Menorah (7-branched lampstand) in the temple.

Torah mantle with Shalom in Hebrew and the Olive branch.

I'm sorry! That was just one of my neurological glitches; I knew who you were. When this happens, I write something different than what I intended, and I often can't perceive my mistake.

However, I didn't know what your name meant, so my error benefited me, didn't it? How beautiful! Thank you!

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