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a blue or red pill

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theIdi0t

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Morpheus offers Neo a choice between taking the blue pill—the continuation of a comfortable fantasy, or a red pill—an awakening to a harsh reality. Neo chose the red.

What would you choose?

If in reality all the evidence pointed to evolution, just as much as reality points to a round earth, and an earth that moves (to the dismay of Psalms, Paul, the old Church, modern Geocentrist, and others), would you choose the blue pill--the continuation of a comfortable fantasy, or would you chose the red--an awakening to a harsh reality?

I can see why believers can dismiss the flat-earth and geocentric passages of the Bible, because they don't really cause much of a stir in one's theology. Perhaps it does put a damper on the inerrant Bible concept, but some of our more skilled literalist have maneuvered around these discrepancies by telling us that when the writers write of an immovable earth, they are really writing of a movable earth, and when they speak of an earth with edges, they are taking about a sphere--a blue pill bliss.

Most of us do not have an issue here with taking the red pill when reality comes face-to-face with these things we reevaluate our understanding of scripture and not deny reality. We choose the red pill since the sting is not so bad. In these examples we play as a jury willing to evaluate the evidence first and then make a verdict. But evaluating the case for evolution is much different. One is no longer the jury; they are now the mother of the victim, or the wife of a husband.

There was a wife in our community whose husband (a Pentecostal pastor) tried to hire an undercover policeman to kill her so he could collect the insurance money. They had recordings of the conversations but even with this, the wife would not leave the side of the husband who claimed he had been set up. She was new to the country; she did not have many friends; her husband was her life, and a red pill would have been too brutal for her (particularly in a Christian culture that sees you as harlot for divorcing for any other reason besides infidelity, unfortunately attempted murder does little to plead your case).

To accept a reality where all the evidence points to evolution the Creationist must return to the beginning, must reexamine her theology--dispentionalism barely makes it past a day. She can no longer accept the interpretation that have been handed down to her, she must examine and cut threw them as a surgeon, and see her husband of many years as a murderer.

It should not be difficult to understand that if there is a blue pill and red pill reality the Creationist position is in the blue, while the TE position is in the red. There is not a single TE who has something to gain or lose if evolution tomorrow is proven false, we only want reality no matter what the cost. Every so often I enter an atheist forum, and I tell everyone before the start of the discussion, that if they can show me that my belief in God is unreasonable, if it is the product of a box that I have not looked in, then I would kiss their feet. If someone tells me that I have been unreasonable, I take his opinion as godsend because then I must examine what I have been unreasonable in. Not once have they accused me of being specious, because I have always been eager to see the error of my ways.

It should be reasonable for even the YEC to see that his position is in a blue pill state--like a Neo prior to Morpheus providing him a red pill option. In the words of Kurt Wise: " no matter how much evidence proves evolution and disproves creationism, he would still be a creationist. ". What better example of a man who choses the blue pill when offered.

If you were Neo, and Morpheus provided you with the choice of a blue pill--the continuation of a comfortable fantasy, or a red pill—an awakening to a harsh reality, what would you choose?
 

laptoppop

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This question has been asked before of YECs in a different format in this forum. Overwhelming result was that the people who responded would "take the red pill" -- if there were indisputable evidence. And no, we wouldn't lose our faith -but it would require some major rework.

Like most folks, we'd rather live in the real world -- even if it is not what we expect or even like. The concept of TRUTH is critical throughout the Scriptures.

It will be interesting to see TE responses. If the red pill says YEC, would you accept YEC and a historic Genesis? I suspect the overwhelming answer is yes -- and that it would require adjustment to their thinking.
 
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juvenissun

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Morpheus offers Neo a choice between taking the blue pill—the continuation of a comfortable fantasy, or a red pill—an awakening to a harsh reality. Neo chose the red.

What would you choose?

This question has a big problem right at the beginning: We do not know what is fantasy and what is reality. Evolution is only an apparently more supported theory. It is FAR FROM a reality. Any evolution story, if one questions it more into detail, the answer is inevitably an unknown. Even many sophisticate atheists know that there is nothing called "reality".

All the rest is political.
 
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theIdi0t

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This question has been asked before of YECs in a different format in this forum. Overwhelming result was that the people who responded would "take the red pill" -- if there were indisputable evidence. And no, we wouldn't lose our faith -but it would require some major rework.

Like most folks, we'd rather live in the real world -- even if it is not what we expect or even like. The concept of TRUTH is critical throughout the Scriptures.

It will be interesting to see TE responses. If the red pill says YEC, would you accept YEC and a historic Genesis? I suspect the overwhelming answer is yes -- and that it would require adjustment to their thinking.

I think there's a fundamental difference between a TE response and YEC response to this question. TEs accepts their origin of life view, while YECs believe in their origin of life view. Acceptance is neutral, belief is not. Belief requires an attachment, while acceptance is indifferent. If the world is 6000 years old, or billions of years old it makes no difference to me; it would not affect my theology a bit, nor would a literal Genesis, because it still provides the same meaning I expound in its allegorical form. A TE accepting the YEC position would be similar to switching from a top gym locker to a bottom gym locker. A YEC accepting a TE position would be like moving from Kansas City to New Delhi.

But I must ask a question. So you agree that that if the evidence for evolution provides the same certainty as evidence that leads one to accept the theory of Gravity, that the earth revolves around the sun, and is spherical, that he should reexamine his position on Genesis and not deny reality?
 
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laptoppop

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I think there's a fundamental difference between a TE response and YEC response to this question. TEs accepts their origin of life view, while YECs believe in their origin of life view. Acceptance is neutral, belief is not. Belief requires an attachment, while acceptance is indifferent. If the world is 6000 years old, or billions of years old it makes no difference to me; it would not affect my theology a bit, nor would a literal Genesis, because it still provides the same meaning I expound in its allegorical form. A TE accepting the YEC position would be similar to switching from a top gym locker to a bottom gym locker. A YEC accepting a TE position would be like moving from Kansas City to New Delhi.

But I must ask a question. So you agree that that if the evidence for evolution provides the same certainty as evidence that leads one to accept the theory of Gravity, that the earth revolves around the sun, and is spherical, that he should reexamine his position on Genesis and not deny reality?
I disagree. These boards have clearly shown that the TEs around here hold their viewpoint just as passionately as YECs.

Anyway - yes, IF the evidence were that strong. Its not even close. Gravity, spherical earth, earth around sun -- directly observable. Evolution - a theory to describe the physical evidence. YEC - a model which describes the same evidence (only more accurately).
 
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shernren

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I disagree. These boards have clearly shown that the TEs around here hold their viewpoint just as passionately as YECs.

There is passionate ideological support and there is passionate evidentiary support.

Have you ever watched Legally Blonde? As the film complicates, Reese Witherspoon's character, Elle, becomes part of a team that has to defend her long-lost close friend for murder. As the team meets to discuss the case for the first time, Elle believes that her friend couldn't have done it because "she couldn't have! She's not that kind of person!" But as the film progresses she learns first that her friend indeed has an alibi, and that the prosecution witnesses are lying on the stand - and she knows now that her friend couldn't have done it, because there was evidence that she didn't.

The difference between creationists and evolutionists are similar, to me.

The primary creationist argument seems to be "no - God couldn't, or shouldn't, have done it the evolutionist way!" It is an argument from personal understanding of character that then selectively picks up questionable evidence to cobble together a defense. There are creationists saying things like: theistic evolution and progressive creationism ... both open God up to ridicule for not using his power to create like He could. They make God subject to natural laws, processes which in the eyes of the non-religious would be ludicrous because he is supposed to be an all powerful God. "He couldn't have! He just wouldn't have! I know Him too well for that!"

The primary evolutionist argument, on the other hand, is that "no - the evidence shows that God didn't do it the creationist way."

If the evolutionist argument is defeated, all that shows is that we were wrong about the evidence.
But if the creationist argument is defeated, that shows that they were wrong (in that small, limited way) about God.

Anyway - yes, IF the evidence were that strong. Its not even close. Gravity, spherical earth, earth around sun -- directly observable. Evolution - a theory to describe the physical evidence. YEC - a model which describes the same evidence (only more accurately).

Quite frankly, unless you are scientifically knowledgeable enough to counter the scientific arguments of the modern geocentrists (who claim that both relativity and heliocentrism are wrong, mostly), I would not be convinced that you know what you're talking about.

Nobody has observed gravity. Nobody has observed either gravitons, gravitational force, or gravitational waves (there being extremely scanty indirect, though explicit, support for the last one). Yes, we know that heavy things fall, and that the Moon orbits the earth. But gravity is just a theory to describe the physical evidence. "Things made of earth want to return to where they are, hence they move downwards naturally" is also just another theory to describe the physical evidence, and quite frankly I think the latter theory would be far more obviously correct to a boy wondering why the sky or the stars don't fall down like apples and balls.

Nobody has observed relativity. Oh sure, we see clocks slowing and things shrinking and all that far-out relativistic jazz. But have you ever seen a squash ball go flatter as it goes faster? Halton Arp, Tom van Flandern, and the rest of the lot would argue that their model - of an ether surrounding the earth within which light propagates as a wave - explains it just as well as relativity, which is after all another model that explains the same phenomena. In fact the mathematics describing length contraction - the Lorentz relations - were originally composed to explain the behavior of ether, not spacetime (IIRC), and make equal sense when taken that way.

Nobody has observed the Earth going around the Sun. If you think about it, man has only set foot on the Moon. Everything else has been done by electronic probes and you know what computers can be like ;). So how might you show that the Earth orbits the Sun? After all, all we have are obscure observations of stars and planets. They are so obscure that today most of the general public don't know what any of these observations actually are, while they learn that the Earth orbits the Sun by rote in school - and that would be "anti-Scriptural indoctrination", the ghost of Bellarmine would say. That the Earth orbits the Sun is just a model for physical evidence.

And evolution is a model for physical evidence. How does YEC come close to matching its predictions? Does YEC, for example, predict that the GULOP pseudogene should be found in all primates along phylogenetic lines, and that the GULO gene should be spoilt in a different way in guinea pigs? Does it predict that bacteria which become antibiotic-resistant can develop further mutations that make them superior to antibiotic-sensitive strains even when the antibiotics are gone? Does it predict that man (as a preliminary conclusion) should be biochemically indistinguishable from other primates, as the baraminologists themselves admit?

At the heart of it all science is a model of the universe. And it is not that gravity or heliocentrism is more well-attested for than evolution - they are just culturally more obvious. (And to turn the point about indoctrination on its head: how early in school did you learn about why things fall? And about the nine - oops, eight :p - planets of the solar system? Then consider how late you would've been taught Darwin. If anyone has any right to complain about brainwashing it isn't Answers in Genesis, it's the Association for Biblical Astronomy.) If there were atheist astronomers and no atheist evolutionists, doubtless people would be complaining about how heliocentric, ungodly astronomy makes people think that they are in control of the heavens and how gravity shoves God out of the picture of why everything hangs together.

There comes a point when it simply isn't about evidence any more.
 
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Jadis40

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I'd have to say that the groundwork for the red pill was laid down in my own life 25 years ago. I've never doubted that we live on a planet that is 4.6 billion years old. After coming to this board, it took 3 years to recognize that evolution is a solid explanation for what we observe in genetics, the fossil record, and variations within the same species, hence the change to TE in my profile.
 
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D.W.Washburn

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I think there's a fundamental difference between a TE response and YEC response to this question. TEs accepts their origin of life view, while YECs believe in their origin of life view. Acceptance is neutral, belief is not. Belief requires an attachment, while acceptance is indifferent.

To spin this a little differently, the TE position begins with the scientific method which, by definition admits of, and even requires the testing and rejection of postulates. The YEC position proceeds from a principal of biblical interpretation and essentially seeks to defend the literal, historical, scientific facticity of Scripture. TE rejects postulates that do not fit observation. YEC rejects postulates that do not fit Scripture.

Another way to express this: the TE position begins with the idea that truth is discovered. The YEC position begins with the idea that truth is revealed.

In any case, TE-ites and YEC-ers have very different conceptual frames. Human beings have a remarkable ability to ignore data that do not fit their conceptual frames.
 
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shernren

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To spin this a little differently, the TE position begins with the scientific method which, by definition admits of, and even requires the testing and rejection of postulates. The YEC position proceeds from a principal of biblical interpretation and essentially seeks to defend the literal, historical, scientific facticity of Scripture. TE rejects postulates that do not fit observation. YEC rejects postulates that do not fit Scripture.

Another way to express this: the TE position begins with the idea that truth is discovered. The YEC position begins with the idea that truth is revealed.

In any case, TE-ites and YEC-ers have very different conceptual frames. Human beings have a remarkable ability to ignore data that do not fit their conceptual frames.

Rather I would say that YEC rejects postulates that do not fit their view of Scripture. We TEs still believe the Bible, so there has to be a way to read the Bible which does not contradict science.
 
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D.W.Washburn

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Rather I would say that YEC rejects postulates that do not fit their view of Scripture. We TEs still believe the Bible, so there has to be a way to read the Bible which does not contradict science.
I accept this as a friendly amendment.
 
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tsubasa

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I choose my stance based on a personal analysis of the evidence that is available to me. If I could be given irrefutable proof of evolution as "the only way" then I would happily adapt it as my standpoint. I'm an OEC because it offers the most plausible creation account in my opinion, but I'd change if someone could prove that I was wrong.

I believe when one's personal theology becomes stagnant and unmovable, one has stopped growing in Christ.
 
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