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A big dilemma

desertdweller

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I am Canadian, live in the Middle East and I am an ex-RC. I still believe in JC, but I have problems with the current Church’s dogmatism. A new pope with better ideas might bring me back.
I am still in the middle of a messy contested divorce, back home.
Over a year ago, I met through common friends a lovely Ethiopian girl, Aster. She is 23 years my junior, I am 46, she is 23.
Very quickly we became a couple, after one week she moved in my villa and we prepared ourselves to be happy ever after with plans to marry with kids once my divorce is completed. Aster is of the Ethiopian brand of Greek Orthodox creed. So a religious wedding will not be a problem and she dreams of it.
Aster does not care about the age difference, loves me without any restrictions and I do everything that is possible to keep her happy, as I should. We were very much a happy couple. Until….
Aster has a two years older sister, Nagusti. The two sisters are very much attached to each other. If it was not for the 2 years age difference, they are like inseparable twins.
Nagusti was married with a 3 months old baby boy, Sammy, and a real a** h*** for an husband. It was a rushed, stupid marriage and it fell apart.
About 8 month ago, Nagusti’s husband disappeared without notice after cleaning up their bank account. I helped her to investigate and after a fortune in long distance calls, found out that he had left the country and moved back to Addis Ababa. Nagusti tried to call him, but last news he is now living with another woman he met here and refused to talk with his wife. A real SOB.
Nagusti was left on the street with her baby, penny less, job less, could not even pay the rent and was about to be expelled.
Under the demand of Aster, I gave temporary shelter to her sister and the baby. I have a big villa and a good expatriate salary. So it was really no hardship for me. Most important, it made my darling Aster happy.
I became very quickly attached to the baby and enjoyed buying lots of baby stuff. Feeling like a father again. Sometimes, he sleeps in my lap while we watch TV. It is a compensation to what my ex wife deprived me of. He is a happy little bundle of joy. Cries only when he is hungry or needs to be changed, rest of the time eats, smiles and sleeps.
But not his mother. Nagusti became very much depressed and Aster started to feel guilty to be so happy with her sister so miserable. Very often, we could hear Nagusti cry in her bedroom and see her with heavy eyes in the morning, Sometimes staying the whole day in her room, broody, eating without appetite, etc. All the symptoms of a major depression in the making.
Aster told me that she could not bear to see her sister like that and asked for my help. I suggested that she should get out, see friends, that we would baby-sit Sammy, I gave her money to change her mind shopping, but to no avail. Her depression was getting worse. I offered to pay her ticket back home, but Aster refused. This would be to send Nagusti back to a life of hard ship, no job, a baby, a bleak future indeed, and the two women cannot stand to be separated.
Then one day, while Nagusti was out, Aster made me an unexpected request. First I laughed at it, it was so incredible. Then I stopped laughing, Aster was very serious.
She told me she wanted to share me with Nagusti, that I should also become Nagusti’s boy friend. “All included” I asked. “Absolutely, everything we have together, I want my sister to have the same thing” she answered. Apparently, the two girls had plotted that for many days. Aster did not see that as a sacrifice, on the contrary, she loves her sister too much.
At first, I refused, but under Aster’s pressing requests, I decided to give it a try. Not a really big hardship I must say, Nagusti is as lovely as her sister. And there is Sammy.
To make a long story short, we are now a very happy threesome. Nagusti’s depression has disappeared almost overnight. We now share the big king-size bed, with Sammy’s cot on the side. Sometimes after his mother has breast fed him, Sammy finishes the night in bed with us. I have now two very loving girl friends bending backward to make me feel good and happy and a lovely baby boy. In the beginning it was awkward, but Aster wanted it to succeed and with encouragements and sometimes unexpected initiatives, it worked. To my surprise I found out very quickly that I could love both women equally. Aster, Nagusti, no differences. I was afraid of any jealousy building up between the two women, but not so, they are still very affectionate to each other, all the time giggling and having a real good time. The last news is that they have both decided, as soon as possible, and if possible together, to both get a baby from me. An idea cast in concrete in their mind. It is not “if?” it is “when?”.
I have changed nothing in my social life, everybody knows the situation. To cut short to any rumors, I have kept it in the open. We shop together, go to parties together, host parties together, etc. At first, my friends were surprised, men a little envious as expected, but now all of them are used to it, even, unexpectedly, the wives. All of them are now accustomed that I have two girl friends. Both Aster and Nagusti are now fully integrated of my social circle.
My Arab boss, jokingly, told me that now I have no excuses not to embrace Islam.
Aster and I have made no changes in our wedding plans, something Nagusti accepts, as long as we stay together. If I could I would happily marry both, but there is there a technicality making it impossible. Bigamy is still a felony in Canada. I have no idea what the Canadian law says about “concubines”, because that is what Nagusti would technically become. I hate that word.
Some might consider I live in sin, but I love these two women dearly and it is reciprocal and real shared love cannot be a sin.
One day my career in the Middle East will come to an end and I will have to go back to my country. I will have no problems to take Aster with me, with whatever children we will have at that time. However, there is no way I will leave Nagusti behind; even more if we have babies together.
I have no clues on how I will handle that situation.
 

Svt4Him

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Nagusti was married with a 3 months old baby boy
No wonder it didn't last, being married to a three month old. Ok, seriously now:

Some might consider I live in sin, but I love these two women dearly and it is reciprocal and real shared love cannot be a sin.
Love doesn't make something not a sin. If I love sleeping with children, and love the children I sleep with, does that make it right? But it seems like sin is the least of your worries, as you didn't mention the fornication or adultery. So what exactly are you looking for here?
 
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Flipper

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Given where you say the girls are from, my guess is that their acceptance of the lifestyle was easier because it is probably cultural - as I think marriages to multiple wives is common.

Even with that understanding, you are writing for advice in a Christian messageboard where mostly Christians will respond. What do you think we are going to tell you?

Setting the obvious Christian stuff aside... You could be coming back to your home country like you said. The lifestyle isn't quite as accepted as where you are now. You might want to think hard about the long term before you start having kids with "wife" #2.
 
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desertdweller

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Thanks for the feedback.
We would like to make a few records straight.

First of all, all what I write is supervised by Aster and Nagusti. They are currently sitting next to me, and make suggestion about additions and ways to explain things, and I will not post anything unless we all three approve.

Cultural allusions are just wrong and, is there not some racists undertones there? Both women are Christians, Ethiopians Orthodoxy is one of the eldest Christian creeds. I would even say, they are much more devoted than me. They have installed a little altar with small icons of Jesus, Virgin Mary and some of their own holly men in their den and I know that when the door is closed, and their TV off, I have to leave them with their privacy and their devotions. It is not my belief, but I respect theirs.

Some answers talk about “adultery” and “fornication”. Immediately the big words.

What is adultery? Unless we are totally wrong it relates to cheating your wife, partner, whatever with somebody else. The keyword here is “cheating”, which means depriving somebody of his/her rights, sex, respect, devotion and love, in this context, and give it to somebody else.
Cheating my ex wife? I am only related to her by some administrative stuff, nothing else. Once the divorce is pronounced, that’s it, I am free to move on with my life. And she does not care less about being cheated. She is already living with somebody else. Our wedding was a mistake we made when we were too young and too stupid.
Cheating the kids I have with my ex-wife? They know about the situation. We invited them last Christmas/new year and when they left, everybody was the best of friends. They just adore the two women who treated them better than their mother and "father in law" ever did, and they already see Sammy as their little brother. If we could, they would stay with us. They would certainly be more happy than what they have now. And yes, they would be more than happy to have more brothers and sisters, even with two “mother in law”.
Cheating Aster with Nagusti or vice-versa. It is all in the open between us. So where is the cheating? When Aster is happy, so is Nagusti and vice-versa. And when we say happy we mean “happy”, this is a Christian Forum, so we better check our words. When Nagusti is frustrated, so is Aster and vice-versa. When one is moody, sad, the two others work on it to get him/her back in good mood. When one feels good, he/she wants to share with the other two.
Two month ago, I had major surgery. The two women took turns at the hospital, 8 hours shifts, I was never alone. They got the admiration of the medical staff for their devotion and nobody, I say nobody, had anything to say about our situation, except some Western doctors who told me I was a “lucky b******”.
Do you know many couples who operate that way? We surfed on the other threads on the marriage subject and what do we see: misery, frustration, unhappiness, anger; all that with legal, bona fides, one man/one woman couples.
No, there is no adultery in our threesome.

“Fornication” Another big word.
Fornication is having sex with a hooker.
Fornication is a one-night stand.
Fornication is having sex with someone you do not respect.
Fornication is having sex just to get a relief when you are h****, even with your own legally wedded wife.

Fornication is not having sex with someone you love dearly and respect.
Fornication is not having sex where your major objective is to get the other to feel good, fulfilled and happy.
Fornication is not having sex with somebody while you look her/him deep in the eyes and say “I love you” and believe it with all your heart.
Fornication is not having sex with someone you would like to have kids with and raise them to happiness and success.
The difference between “legal sex” and fornication is not a paper or five minutes with a minister/priest/rabbi/imam whatever. The difference is in the mind.
No, there is no fornication in our threesome.

Someone made a hidden allusion to “pedophilia”.
Pedophilia is something that we all three abhor. A pedophile is at best someone who needs psychiatric treatment.
Both Aster and Nagusti were terribly shocked when they read that our relationship was linked, even indirectly, to that form of deviance.
Pedophilia means a relationship where there is a sick, criminal, whatever, dominator and a weak dominated.
I can tell you, tongue in the cheek, that in our relationship I am the dominated. I have instated a system of democracy in our household, and guess who is the looser? It cost me a new TV, a new VCR, a new satellite decoder, a set of furnitures and a Karaoke sound system to transform one of the bed rooms in “their” den just so that I can retain control on “my” zapper and listen to “my” music.
They have put me on a diet, forbidden smoking in the house and kept the booze under “their” control. Every day, like it or not, rain or shine, we force march five miles, Sammy in his high tech jogger stroller, Guess who decided? Guess who kick me in the *** when I want to stay home to watch my favorite TV show.
Do you believe it is easy to resist to two strong willed women when they team together?
Any comparison, even indirect, to the type of love we share with any deviant, you-know-who, type is sickening.

As far as treating them as little sisters. Easier said than done. These are two grown up women with their desires and needs of sexual fulfillment. I can tell you that when they read the message they both said, almost screamed, “no way!”.
Giving one of them away, to some other relationship is a big no-no. Love is not something you control. Anyway, this a subject I better keep out, if I want to keep peace in the household.

Something highly frustrating for us is when we see that homosexuality is taking its place in the society. We might not approve of gays and Lesbians, but they start to have rights and be accepted. Some countries are even giving them the possibility to be wedded, to have their relationship legalized and have a normal life fruitful life.
Our relationship, except that it is a threesome instead of a couple, is closer to the rules of nature than same sex relationships. But it is rejected by that same society. It is even considered a felony.
A gay couple is accepted, our threesome is considered freak. Is that fair?

We believe that this was like a domino effect on which we had no control on the circumstances. It happened, we have to accept it. We are the last domino, life, fate, God whatever, controlled the preceding ones. And please do not say it was Satan. As far as we know, Satan and Love (real love, please) do not fit together.

Some wonder why we posted our story on a Christian Forum.
Simple.
First we are all three, more or less devoted, Christians. So, where better to get advices and talk about ourselves from than to other Christians and this Forum is the best we found on the Internet. Also a Forum has the benefits of anonymity. We are very jealous of our privacy and we do not want nor deserve to be fingered as freaks.

Second we expect some Christian tolerance and understanding, not condemnations and sniggering. This is a real life human situation that could happen to anybody. You never know what life, God, fate will bring you tomorrow. We certainly did not and when we realized, it was too late.

Third we are looking for ideas, suggestions, etc. Not precooked, dogmatic sentences cut and pasted out of the Bible. Throwing the Bible at our head is not what Jesus Christ had in mind. We read him as follows:
Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven--for she loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little (Luke 7:47)

And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." (Mat 22:39-40)

The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself. There is no commandment greater than these." (Mark 12:31)

A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another (John 13:34)

The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. (Roman 13:9-10)

The message of Jesus Christ is a message of LOVE. Love does no harm to its neighbor.
“L’amour a des raisons que la raison ne connaît pas (Blaise Pascal) (love has a logic that defies logic).
Thanks for your patience and understanding. And God bless you.
Michael, Aster, Nagusti (and Sammy)
 
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Amandine

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Fornication is ANY, I repeat, ANY sexual activity outside of wedlock. Monogamy is the only thing promoted by the Orthodox churches. You really are in a bind, but like many have said, this is a Christian forum, what answers could you expect? We just want to everyone to live a life right with God, and most Christians, from Baptists to Catholics to Armenian Apostolics, agree that 2 partners, no matter how much you love them, just doesn't cut it in God's eyes. I know it isn't what you want to hear, but that's it. I highly suggest talking about this situation with a priest.
God bless,
-Catherine
 
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Flipper

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There's nothing racist about what I said and I apologize if I came across that way. There are, however, cultural differences that I pointed out. Ethiopia has a large muslim population and multiple wives are common. I wasn't calling them muslims, but you can see that if a society accepts it, even if it isn't your religion, you are more tolerant to it. Speaking of tolerance, you may be going back to a land where the tolerance of your lifestyle is even less. If you think you can all handle that, then you don't need our opinions. I have friends in different lifestyles here, not only in the US, but in one of the most conservative states, that handle it just fine, it can be done.

The only other problem with this is that God says it is wrong in many, many places in the Bible. Your interpretation of definitions are unfortunately off, and I'm sure many who are much more adept at quoting specific scripture will point out to you (Dave Keane??) I'm not going to judge you because none of us is without sin (and he who is without sin may cast the first stone). You are right, Jesus is all about Love. If He didn't die for us, we would all be in trouble. Not judging you doesn't mean I can't tell you that while Jesus is all about love, that doesn't mean that what you are doing is right, according to the Bible.

I also suggest talking to a priest about this (or more than one priests if you wish).
 
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DaveKerwin

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sex outside of marriage is sin.

Marriage is one man and one women, one flesh, for life. You have gone outside of these bounds, which means you are going against God's design, which is sin. There is no way to reconcile this situation to Godly living. You need to stop having sex with anyone, drop one of them, and do it right. But like I said before, you have already made this prison for yourself, good luck making yourself feel right about it.
 
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Jenna

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I'm with Dave on this one.

If you are looking for tolerance, then you have it. No one here is going to stone you for adultery or fornication. However, tolerating something is not condoning it.

If you are looking for understanding, then you have it. Plenty of people want things that we are not supposed to have, so everyone can empathize in one way or another. Still, the point is to refrain from sin, not to try and find ways to excuse it. God gave Adam his wife, not his wife and however many concubines he thought he loved and could be happy with. One man and one woman come together to be ONE flesh.

I'm not going to argue with anyone about whether they are really Christian, since we all have our struggles. I would venture to say that each person needs to really delve into themselves and what God wants for them. Not only that, but to be willing to make the neccessary changes when they find themselves in the wrong. You can't take what portions of scripture that fit one's purpose and throw out the rest because it is inconvenient. God speaks very clearly on sexual immorality, adultery, and fornication. If a person doesn't agree, then they can make their own choice to walk with God or turn away because they choose their sin instead. The word "Christian" is used far too much, just because people see it as a label that gives them merit. It isn't what you say, it's what you do and how you live your life. All the pretty words in the world don't amount for anything if we don't live the lives that God calls us to. As far as your 'girlfriends' being devout, so are cultists. People in cults have been known to be so devoted as to kill others or even themselves. Just because someone puts up a shrine in their home, it doesn't mean anything if they shut the Word of God out of their heart because they want something that God says 'no' to.

That said, I've probably offended you. I can't say that I'm sorry if I had, and I hope that you understand that. The best I can offer is to pray for all of you.
 
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hisbloodformysins

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Well, hmmmm. This is interesting because the bible does say not to commit adultery, however David and Solomon had many wives and were still mighty men of God, and Abraham had a concubine, actually, they all did. I won't cast stones, if they are ok with it, and the sister encouraged it- then how can it be a sin. Sin is what seperates you from God, and is when you hurt another.... of course your conscience may eventually lead you a different way, or it may not.... But if it were me- No way Hose!!! I wouldn't share my man for a minute! Oooh, I'd be so jealous.
 
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desertdweller

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I am sorry if I look like cutting hairs but it seems that there are some problems in the rules. And do not worry, it takes more to offend me, even comparing the devotions of Aster and Nagusti to a cult. I know that for one specific creed, every other creeds are too often considered a cults. Ignorance is excusable, one cannot know everything. Their Bible is not in Latin, Greek or English, it is in Ge’er which is to them what Latin is to Roman Catholics. It is no less the same Bible as the King James one and their devotion to God and Jesus is as good as any other Christian’s.
I am just trying to defend our situation, within the confine of the message of God.
Somebody said “Fornication is ANY, I repeat, ANY sexual activity outside of wedlock.”
The easy question is “define wedlock”.
Is wedlock a paper given by an administration? It cannot because administrations are human, ie not created by God. So civil marriage is just a fornication legal authorization.
Is wedlock something that exist only after making some vows in front of a religious authority?
Which one?
In that definition, every Muslim couples is fornicating because Christians do not accept Islam and by consequences, Imams, and vice-versa. And we can say the same thing for every Christians creeds. Catholic Priests are not accepted by Fundamentalist Baptists ministers, Orthodox popes are not accepted by Roman Catholics, etc the line is very long and the many combinations makes it even longer.
And what about using a “rent a minister” like in Vegas or Reno or Gretna Green? Are these “so called ministers” more valid than any other?
Let’s assume I am still bachelor, Roman Catholic and I marry Aster (as planned) in front of an Ethiopian priest. A creed I do not believe in, because doing so would make a Catholic apostate. If we marry in front of a catholic priest, it is Aster who becomes an apostate. And I cannot force her to my creed because of tolerance and vice versa.
Is that not a fantastic hypocrisy, where everybody suddenly accepts everybody’s other creed just for the sake of salvaging the definition of wedlock and escape the condemnation of “living in sin”?
Is wedlock not a vow made in front of God, where the religious authority is nothing more than an intermediary? Then why would a vow made directly toward God be less valid? Does God needs go betweens?
I made some research in “Christian dictionaries” on the web
Marriage: No where did I find that the vow has to be made in front of a minister of any creed. The only reference was that it “will improve the chances” to make the marriage stronger, etc. So it is an advise, not a sine qua non condition. So everything is left to the partners and their commitment in the face of God.
Adultery : Conjugal infidelity. An adulterer was a man who had illicit intercourse with a married or a betrothed woman, and such a woman was an adulteress. Even with greatest imagination this cannot apply to us. We are not infidel to each other, on the contrary.
Fornication: Very weak definitions, none of which corresponding to the one given above. The Bible talks more about maids loosing their virginity in various situations than anything else.
Polygamy, monogamy, wedlock, infidelity : no entries in any dictionary I could find.
God speaks very clearly on sexual immorality, adultery, and fornication. Yes God does, but in such terms that there are a lot of interpretations and man has filled the gaps to meet his own society rules.
Concerning the monogamous marriage. The model God gave us is Adam and Eva. Granted.
I will not swear on it but some of the great people in the Bible had more than one wife. Unless you do not accept Lamech, the great -grand son of Adam a great man of the Bible. The Bible does not speak badly of him, does not condemn him, on the contrary (genesis 4:23). Lamech had two wives, Adah and Zillah.
The point I make here is that in certain situations, rules are broken, which makes sin a relative, not absolute rule.
Considering the existence of polygamy in the Bible, One must assume that monogamy is a man creation, not God. I would appreciate if somebody could point me a verse where Jesus “directly” condemns polygamy.
I read some years ago a science Fiction novel in which men were decimated by a disease. After the disease was back under control, there where so little men left that polygamy became not the exception, but the law. Now who can tell this will not happen? AIDS came out of nowhere, is still not under control, so a disease specific to males is not an impossibility. So, in the sake of the preservation of humanity will there be not a “cas de force majeure” where the rules will have to be broken, whatever the Bible says?
Somebody says “I have friends in different lifestyles here, not only in the US, but in one of the most conservative states, that handle it just fine, it can be done.” That is very encouraging. Thank you.
About talking to a priest, that’s difficult. No priests in this country.
But something that really makes me feel bad is that all the so called “legal” solutions will require to badly hurt somebody and make irremediable morale damages. Would that not be the worst possible sin?
Thank you for your patience and God bless.
Michael, Aster, Nagusti (and Sammy)
 
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DaveKerwin

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Michael, you cannot twist yourself up in sin, then ask people what the lesser sin would be at that point. Let me give an example: I become a man harlot and get paid to fornicate. I have one particular client that I have grown fond of, and she of me. Time progresses and we love each other. Does that make our fornication right in the eyes of God? NOOO! Surely I cannot give up my man whorring because I have a mortgage payment, and I am in love. So a christian prostitute I must remain. Would you agree with that?

Only a fool would agree with that. Any logical christian person would tell me that its too bad I have a mortgage payment and a woman I love. These things resulted from sin! If that scenario was true, I should quit my job, ditch my lady lover, and start living right. Like I said before, you have dug a very deep hole for yourself, a very dark prison. I will not be party to agreeing with you, your situation is ungodly.

And to the "girlfriends", don't be fooled just because he can talk forever about something and intellectually justify your situation with God. I am not fooled by him, but you are.
 
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charligirl

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I am not sure what you are looking for on this board, you say you have a dilemma then proceed to say you just want to defend your position.


desertdweller said:
Adultery : Conjugal infidelity. An adulterer was a man who had illicit intercourse with a married or a betrothed woman, and such a woman was an adulteress. Even with greatest imagination this cannot apply to us. We are not infidel to each other, on the contrary.
Polygamy aside, at the very least you are in adultery as you and Nagusti are still married to other people, whether in the process of divorce or not, legally you are still married.


desertdweller said:
Is wedlock something that exist only after making some vows in front of a religious authority?
What is marriage? if it a christian marriage it is a Covenant, with vows made before God and recognised by the law of the land as also a legal contract. God told us to honour the laws of the land.. so without the legal contract bit, you are not married in the eyes of the government and do not have marriage status. Which is why a legal ceremony with no religious minister present is still marriage in God's eyes.

With regard to God's plan, consider the scriptures below.

Genesis 2:24
Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Mark 10
11He answered, "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. 12And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery."

1 Corinthians 7:2
But because of the temptation to impurity and to avoid immorality, let each [man] have his own wife and let each [woman] have her own husband.

They clearly refer to marriage being 2 people.. otherwise there would be no need for divorce laws, you would just marry another when you got bored. Each man his own Wife and each woman her own husband, I think that is pretty clear.

A covenant is always cut between two parties, marriage is the same, two people promising to love each other FORSAKING ALL OTHERS, which is impossible in a polyamous relationship.

All three of you are living outside of God's will, it is a messy situation - which can be put right, whether you choose to do that or not is your own decision.
 
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desertdweller

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Yes Charligirl, I feel like a lawyer defending a cause. So I am entitled to use the same sources as you do.
You want to demonstrate we are living in sin. We want to demonstrate that we live in sin, not by the Bible, but by the law of man. In the eyes of God, we are not.

Divorce.
Granted, I am still married to my ex-wife and so is Nagusti, Within a few weeks, months, we will be both divorced and that sin will be behind us. I am sure God will forgive us.
By the way, in both cases legal divorce only, not religious. Neither RC not Ethiopian orthodoxy admit divorce.
But if not legally, morally we are both divorced. The chances to get back to our former spouses is absolute zero. We have both been divorced against our will. Both our spouses have been unfaithfull to us, leaving us out in the cold.
But If I read well, Divorce is a big no-no, for every Christian, without any exceptions. Is that not true?
But divorce is "tolerated" in certain conditions, etc. A woman that want to make her life back after having escaped an abusive, unfaithful, absent husband. She is living in sin. Is that not right? Is that not a form of hypocrisy.
Some Christian creeds accept divorce other not. I cannot divorce as a RC but I can get remmaried with a Protestan minister. How do you call that?
Is that minister of God not blessing a sin?

About poligamy.
Genesis defines monogamy. But immediately after that, Adam great grand son has two wives. Is that not a contradiction? Was he living in sin? The Bible says nothing about that.
Somebody under this same subject said something I always suspected: Most great men of the Bible, Solomon, David, etc where polygamist. Were all these people living in sin and at the same time given to us as role models?
By the way, Solomon was bewitched by the Queen of Sheba, an Ethiopian like my women. Now I can understand him. (tongue in the cheek)

Please do not take verses out of context: (Chor 7)

Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry.[1] 2But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband. 3The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. 5Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6I say this as a concession, not as a command. 7I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.

Take this as concession not a command. Seems clear to me.

Then Paul makes that advise to avoid immorality. Define immorality.

Is there immorality in our relationship? I do not think so. Then how are we avoiding something that does not exist?
I can assure you that I have no temptations to look outside, neither are my women.
Is there love? I can tell you: a lot more than in many one man/one woman marriage.
Are we planning to follow God law and procreate? ASAP
Would I give everything I have for either one? you bet!
Will we live until death parts us? That's the vow we have made to each other and we are going to stick to it.
What Paul means is that "not been married" might lead to temptations.

Now when you use the Bible, you have to use it in its entirety.
The same Paul says :As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church(Chor 14:34-35)
Why are these verses more or less valid? Are Paul letters open to interpretation? Does women lib overides the Bible?
Are all the female priests, ministers, diaconess, reverends, etc living in sin?

"I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, (Tim 2:29)
So we better shut Tifany, all the fashion business and beauty parlors.

Do we have to understand that some verses have become obsolate. Who says?

And please, I do not go to one because I am bored with the other. I believe I was very clear on that subject.
And the comparison to "gigolo" is of very bad taste.

Considering the law of the land. If we move to a country where poligamy is accepted by the law of the land and get a marriage contract there, then what? Is God Geographical?
 
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charligirl

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desertdweller said:
Yes Charligirl, I feel like a lawyer defending a cause. So I am entitled to use the same sources as you do.?
So why post on this forum in the first place if you are happy with what you are doing?


desertdweller said:
You want to demonstrate we are living in sin. We want to demonstrate that we live in sin, not by the Bible, but by the law of man. In the eyes of God, we are not.
desertdweller said:
Genesis defines monogamy. But immediately after that, Adam great grand son has two wives. Is that not a contradiction? Was he living in sin? The Bible says nothing about that.
Somebody under this same subject said something I always suspected: Most great men of the Bible, Solomon, David, etc where polygamist. Were all these people living in sin and at the same time given to us as role models?.
In every case you will see that God DID NOT accept their polygamy and in fact it caused no end of disruption and heartache for all involved. I have linked an article below, it explains better than I can why God sees Polygamy as a sin.

http://www.giveshare.org/family/polygamy.html


desertdweller said:
By the way, in both cases legal divorce only, not religious. Neither RC not Ethiopian orthodoxy admit divorce..
You cannot separate the two, if you marry legally, God recognises the marriage, if you divorce legally, God recognises the divorce has happened and considers it a sin. (Except in cases of allowed biblical divorce, when the other spouse has either committed adultery and broken covenant or cannot stand your faith and leaves of their own accord)






desertdweller said:
Please do not take verses out of context: (Chor 7)

Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry.[1] 2But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband. 3The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. 5Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6I say this as a concession, not as a command. 7I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.

Take this as concession not a command. Seems clear to me...
The verses I quoted stand alone or in the above text, it does not change their meaning. Paul says that it is better not to marry... but the concession is that we can marry if we are tempted by all the immorality in the world (ie: to have sex OUTSIDE of marriage) and if we choose to go with the concession and marry then it is ONE man married to ONE woman.
 
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Jenna

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I just wanted to pop in for a second to toss something in.

Many of the "heros" of the bible were errant in their ways at one point or another. Just because they loved God and were loved by Him does not mean that they were in that situation because they were without sin. As far as mentioning the obscene number of wives and concubines, I would refer you to Deuteronomy 17:17.

My last comment for the moment will be this: It sounds as though you need to make a distinction between what God wants, and what man decrees. I'm not talking about whether to obey the law of any country. I am referring to the struggle that you have between religion and what God wants. You need to decide what is most important, the regulations of any group of people within the church- or what the Word of God says. Just working through that alone will clear up half of the questions that you ask.
 
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Mustaphile

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My advice desert dweller is to seek God the best way you know how and worry less about what others consider necessary for salvation. Your dealing with the oldest problem in the book, as far as religion is concerned. Are we called to obey God in spirit or in letter? The law was put there to guide us towards an evaluation of truth by looking at the entirety of the law, rather than strict adherence to single aspects of the law. The law is written our our hearts now, not on stone tablets which are unchangeable. In many situations Jesus outlined the concept when dealing with the Pharisees. The story of eating the food from the temple, when this was a breach of law. The spirit of the law is what you need to understand.

If you want to live outside of societal norms then consider carefully the consequences of your actions. Comprehend the limits it places on you and decide for yourself what is more important, changing society to suit your choices or changing yourself to live with your choices. Your decision to live in a polygamous relationship, will limit your options, and has serious social implications, so you have to come to terms with that yourself. If you feel that God is leading you in a certain direction then you need to think carefully about what that means in terms of your own aspirations, which may well be outside of what God plans for you. If you think this is the way that God is leading you, then a moving to another country would seem to be outside of God's will for you, unless you can seek God to show you how you can do both. It's time to get on your knees and pray for God to be made manifest in your life, and for you to surrender your will and follow his. Magnify God and make yourself smaller.

God bless.
 
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Breetai

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Well, this is one of the most interesting things that I have read in quite a while...

I'd be lying if I said I was not envious of your current situation. I'm not sure if I'd want to be in your shoes if you come back to Canada though.

LCMS said:
The essence of marriage does not consist in legal requirements nor in ecclesiastical ceremonies. To say otherwise would be to retract the Biblical emphasis on marriage as a worldly or earthly institution. Not the pronouncement of a minister but the consent of the partners belongs to the essence of marriage.

I would say that you are indeed married to two women. The fact that you are not 'officially' divorced yet or not 'officially' married yet means nothing, that's only paper work.

I will say that it seems that the Bible strongly implies that having more than two people within a marriage is wrong. That's the best I can do there. There are no verses, that I know of, that specifically condemn what you are doing. They only imply that it is wrong.

Well, that's all I have to say about that. God Bless, I pray that things work out for you and your wives.
 
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