A better argument from evil which classical theodicy doesn't address.

[AskTheFamily]

The premises are as follows:

If there was a benevolent Creator, there would not exist unnecessary suffering or suffering that would not bring about a greater good.
There exists suffering that is unnecessary and doesn't bring about a greater good.
Therefore a benevolent Creator does not exist.


Now this argument is not stating there is no need of any suffering. For example, the existence of poverty, promotes the good intentions of charity.

But I would argue there is things like:

1) People with multiple personalities where they can't even decide whom they want to be, there personalities are out of control.
2) All sorts of mental disorders which goes against soul development (not saying all do, but some do).

I understand the argument that suffering brings character. But what is the point of a person having a multiple personalities and can hardly function? What good does it bring upon others or towards the person sufferring?

It seems whatever good can come out of it, is not necessary. For example, compassion towards the person. We can have compassion towards people in poverty sufferring, and actual be able to help them. In the case of multiple personalities, what can we do for them, but feel sorry for them?

This a significant point. The same can be said about diseases in general.

I would like to hear a defense for this.

 

[LoAmmi]

ATF,
For your consideration on a related note.
Isaiah 45
5. I am the Lord, and there is no other; besides Me there is no God: I will strengthen you although you have not known Me. 6. In order that they know from the shining of the sun and from the west that there is no one besides Me; I am the Lord and there is no other. 7. Who forms light and creates darkness, Who makes peace and creates evil; I am the Lord, Who makes all these. 8. Cause the heavens above to drip, and let the skies pour down righteousness; let the earth open, and let salvation and righteousness be fruitful; let it cause them to sprout together; I, the Lord, have created it.

 

[awitch]

The premises are as follows:

If there was a benevolent Creator, there would not exist unnecessary suffering or suffering that would not bring about a greater good.
There exists suffering that is unnecessary and doesn't bring about a greater good.
Therefore a benevolent Creator does not exist.
...
I would like to hear a defense for this.

Are you assuming the Creator is all-powerful?

Suppose there exists one (or more) creator(s) who are not all powerful. It/They create a universe and people within act with their own free will. It's the people who are responsible for inflicting suffering on each other, instead of the all-powerful creator.

 

[AskTheFamily]

Are you assuming the Creator is all-powerful?

Suppose there exists one (or more) creator(s) who are not all powerful. It/They create a universe and people within act with their own free will. It's the people who are responsible for inflicting suffering on each other, instead of the all-powerful creator.

Evil inflicted by free-will, I would say can be justified for a greater good (free-will + character building).

But there exists suffering that doesn't bring about a greater good, for example, multiple personalities disorder.

 

[Star of the Dawn]

Why must this creator be benevolent? Throughout the Bible we see again and again acts of Yahweh NOT being very benevolent. The text says that he is benevolent and loving, but words and actions are two different things. Indeed, one of his first acts is the throwing out of Adam and Eve into the world to suffer:

Genesis, Chapter 2:
Verses 16-19

16 Unto the woman he said,
I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. 17 And unto Adam he said,
Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee;
and thou shalt eat the herb of the field: 19 in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread,
till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art,and unto dust shalt thou return.

He could have created the world as something like a toy; this is why he kept Adam and Eve ignorant. We also see that Yahweh allows suffering on the part of unbelievers, mainly in Hell, even if the unbeliever has led a good, sin-free life he or she will still not enter Heaven.

Exodus Chapter 4 Verse 11:
And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?

Here we see that Yahweh creates people with impairments, so why not personality disorders?

It seems to me that he doesn't really mind people suffering, he even says that suffering is part and parcel of being a Christian:

Philippians 1:29
For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake

As you can see, this probably isn't the Christian defence that you were expecting, but that is because I am not a Christian. If this is not what you wanted please feel free to disregard.
We suffer because we sin. At least, that is how I interpreted it.

 

[LoAmmi]

Evil inflicted by free-will, I would say can be justified for a greater good (free-will + character building).

But there exists suffering that doesn't bring about a greater good, for example, multiple personalities disorder.

Aren't we making an assumption here that everything should be for the greater good?

 

[AskTheFamily]

Aren't we making an assumption here that everything should be for the greater good?

Yes, that's the first premise. Either it has to be necessary or for the greater good to be compatible with a benevolent Creator.

 

[LoAmmi]

Yes, that's the first premise. Either it has to be necessary or for the greater good to be compatible with a benevolent Creator.

What is our working definition of benevolent?

 

[AskTheFamily]

Why must this creator be benevolent?

The argument doesn't rule out a benevolent creator, but I would say that this world has too much good (character building for example) to be compatible with an apathetic or evil creator.

So I would say further argument would show no creator (justify materialism).

 

[LoAmmi]

He could have created the world as something like a toy; this is why he kept Adam and Eve ignorant. We also see that Yahweh allows suffering on the part of unbelievers, mainly in Hell, even if the unbeliever has led a good, sin-free life he or she will still not enter Heaven.

Keep in mind that this is a Christian concept. It is not one we share with them.

 

[JJWhite]

Aren't we making an assumption here that everything should be for the greater good?

I have that belief.. but just because I can't see the good in certain things doesn't mean it isn't there.. I don't always know the big picture and how things are related.. it's good to try to figure things out.. contemplate over the wisdom behind things... but there will always be stuff we don't know and we have to realize that

 

[AskTheFamily]

What is our working definition of benevolent?

I'm not good at defining words. :S

 

[LoAmmi]

I have that belief.. but just because I can't see the good in certain things doesn't mean it isn't there.. I don't always know the big picture and how things are related.. it's good to try to figure things out.. contemplate over the wisdom behind things... but there will always be stuff we don't know and we have to realize that

I think some things do just happen. You know about some of my medical problems. What greater good is served by them? Nothing, I simply live in a body that is flawed.

 

[awitch]

But there exists suffering that doesn't bring about a greater good, for example, multiple personalities disorder.

A benevolent creator creates and from that point on (since the creator is not all-powerful) suffering exists on the accord of the actions of the created. The existence of multiple personality disorders does not necessarily disprove the existence of a benevolent creator, given you accept such a disorder is genetic and a natural occurrence.

 

[LoAmmi]

A benevolent creator creates and from that point on (since the creator is not all-powerful) suffering exists on the accord of the actions of the created. The existence of multiple personality disorders does not necessarily disprove the existence of a benevolent creator, given you accept such a disorder is genetic and a natural occurrence.

I have no problem with the creator being all-powerful and these things happening, just so you know.

 

[AskTheFamily]

A benevolent creator creates and from that point on (since the creator is not all-powerful) suffering exists on the accord of the actions of the created. The existence of multiple personality disorders does not necessarily disprove the existence of a benevolent creator, given you accept such a disorder is genetic and a natural occurrence.

Yes it's genetic, but the Creator could have designed the world so that such disorders don't occur.

 

[awitch]

Yes it's genetic, but the Creator could have designed the world so that such disorders don't occur.

That depends on if the creator knew in advance such things would occur.
I do not believe in an all powerful, all knowing creator and I accept evolution as a completely natural process. Therefore, I can maintain the belief a benevolent creator while suffering such as mental disorders exist.

 

[AskTheFamily]

I have that belief.. but just because I can't see the good in certain things doesn't mean it isn't there.. I don't always know the big picture and how things are related.. it's good to try to figure things out.. contemplate over the wisdom behind things... but there will always be stuff we don't know and we have to realize that

This is why this argument, as strong as it is, is not conclusive. It's not a knock out argument because it appeals to ignorance.

 

[RaiseTheDead]

It seems whatever good can come out of it, is not necessary.

The "properly basic" answer, is that the physical existence of the Universe itself is not necessary. God was doing just fine without it. He merely chose to create! Therefore, every individual element with in our world can be reduced to "not necessary."

 

[RaiseTheDead]

Are you assuming the Creator is all-powerful?

Suppose there exists one (or more) creator(s) who are not all powerful. It/They create a universe and people within act with their own free will. It's the people who are responsible for inflicting suffering on each other, instead of the all-powerful creator.

Same holds within monotheism