A Baha'i's view of atonement

WoodrowX2 · Jan 14, 2014

Thank you Susan,

I am always grateful to to those who give some insight into their beliefs. Neither I nor anyone else will ever understand every religious system. the closest we can is see what adherents of a belief have to say.

Best to hear from an adherent than from someone who thinks they know what another person believes.

Thank You for posting this.

Rationalt · Jan 14, 2014

gordRedeemed said:
of course there is. blood was the least important of the ways to get atonement from G-d. it is also completely useless for any sin except unintentional sins. sacrifice was inadequate to atone for a transgression committed intentionally.
...

Doesn't sound right as far as biblical literature is concerned.The OT god likes blood(And burning fat) and gave an opportunity to adherents to atone their sins by way of offering blood.

Jewish view of blood sacrifice : www.torahresource.com/EnglishArticles/ForgivenessTRNL.pdf

gord44 · Jan 14, 2014

Rationalt said:
Doesn't sound right as far as biblical literature is concerned.The OT god likes blood(And burning fat) and gave an opportunity to adherents to atone their sins by way of offering blood.

just unintentional ones. the least important sins. sacrifice was more ceremonial anyway. you didn't even need blood really. bring some flour and you get the same effect. Lev 5:11-13.

Rationalt · Jan 14, 2014

gordRedeemed said:
just unintentional ones. the least important sins. sacrifice was more ceremonial anyway. you didn't even need blood really. bring some flour and you get the same effect. Lev 5:11-13.

I am not sure Jews agree with your assertion.

With regards to Lev 5:11-13 it was clearly meant for poor people who cannot afford animals.
11 If, however, they cannot afford two doves or two young pigeons, they are to bring as an offering for their sin a tenth of an ephah[a] of the finest flour for a sin offering

gord44 · Jan 14, 2014

still shows blood aint needed bruv.

Rationalt · Jan 14, 2014

gordRedeemed said:
still shows blood aint needed bruv.

Right.But, It pleases the lord. I am not saying it is a must .

gord44 · Jan 14, 2014

i gotcha sir. my apologies.

dazed · Jan 14, 2014

Rationalt said:
I am not sure Jews agree with your assertion.

With regards to Lev 5:11-13 it was clearly meant for poor people who cannot afford animals.
11 If, however, they cannot afford two doves or two young pigeons, they are to bring as an offering for their sin a tenth of an ephah[a] of the finest flour for a sin offering

Er, what if I can afford but because of my intrinsic nature or forecast economics woe, I decided to use flour. Will my sins still be atone?

smaneck · Jan 14, 2014

Rationalt said:
May be you should start with salient points of bahai doctrine before criticizing christian doctrine.

In case you weren't paying attention, I discuss to versions of Christian doctrine, one which I agreed with and one which I did not.

Having managed to read the tripe

I don't suppose you could at least try and observe the forum rules against personal insults?

I am still wondering whether blood sacrifice(Of animals) is Ok for atonement in bahai faith .

We have no animal sacrifices in the Baha'i Faith if that is what you are asking.

smaneck · Jan 14, 2014

Is anyone besides me having any problems with this website freezing up today?

Rationalt · Jan 15, 2014

dazed said:
Er, what if I can afford but because of my intrinsic nature or forecast economics woe, I decided to use flour. Will my sins still be atone?

It appears so.Not sure what are the rules for gentiles .

Rationalt · Jan 15, 2014

smaneck said:
In case you weren't paying attention, I discuss to versions of Christian doctrine, one which I agreed with and one which I did not.

I am paying as much attention to it as it deserves.Don't flatter yourself too much.It is stupid to start criticizing christian doctrine before espousing bahai doctrine especially when you start the thread with the title "A Baha'i's view of atonement".

I don't suppose you could at least try and observe the forum rules against personal insults?

I don't do direct personal insults, if that is what you are asking .

We have no animal sacrifices in the Baha'i Faith if that is what you are asking.

That is not the question I asked .Why do you people ride on other scriptures and come up with some funny theology ?.

Rationalt · Jan 15, 2014

Deleted for repeat post.

Rationalt · Jan 15, 2014

Deleted for repeat post.

LoAmmi · Jan 15, 2014

Rationalt said:
Doesn't sound right as far as biblical literature is concerned.The OT god likes blood(And burning fat) and gave an opportunity to adherents to atone their sins by way of offering blood.

But the blood was not a magic charm. The first chapter of Isaiah clearly demonstrates this when he tells the people their hands are full of blood. This is a reference to the fact that people were bringing sacrifices without any sort of repentance, thinking that it was a charm that only required it.

Jewish view of blood sacrifice : www.torahresource.com/EnglishArticles/ForgivenessTRNL.pdf

Please don't quote a messianic site and claim it is the Jewish view.

LoAmmi · Jan 15, 2014

dazed said:
Er, what if I can afford but because of my intrinsic nature or forecast economics woe, I decided to use flour. Will my sins still be atone?

A Jew living in Temple times would not have been able to do that. What you describe is a willful violation of the Torah which is a sin.

dazed · Jan 15, 2014

LoAmmi said:
A Jew living in Temple times would not have been able to do that. What you describe is a willful violation of the Torah which is a sin.

I think there is a circular reasoning somewhere here.

It's a sin if I chose flour but my sin would be atone with the flour.

What could happen to that Jew? I thought Jews, at that time, didn't believe in after life. So the worse that could happen is that he didn't get blessed, and became poor. Which fulfilled his own prediction, ie. using flour because he thought he may be poor in the future.

gord44 · Jan 15, 2014

Edit. Figured out my answer didn't make sense.

Rationalt · Jan 15, 2014

LoAmmi said:
But the blood was not a magic charm. The first chapter of Isaiah clearly demonstrates this when he tells the people their hands are full of blood. This is a reference to the fact that people were bringing sacrifices without any sort of repentance, thinking that it was a charm that only required it.

No argument there .

Please don't quote a messianic site and claim it is the Jewish view.

I think It is anti messianic .

LoAmmi · Jan 15, 2014

dazed said:
I think there is a circular reasoning somewhere here.

It's a sin if I chose flour but my sin would be atone with the flour.

It would be a sin to fake repentance even if repentance can atone. You would be faking your sacrifice, so to speak, so it would be a violation of the Torah.

What could happen to that Jew? I thought Jews, at that time, didn't believe in after life. So the worse that could happen is that he didn't get blessed, and became poor. Which fulfilled his own prediction, ie. using flour because he thought he may be poor in the future.

The Torah makes some vague mentions of life after death, but it simply wasn't important. The threat of willfully violating the Torah for a normal person would be to get cut off from the people of Israel. We don't do what we do because it gets us in good with the gatekeeper to some afterlife but because it is what HaShem told us to do. Being cut off from our people is a pretty horrible thing, especially back then.

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