No Sunlight, No Oxygen, Yet Life Persists

Cabal

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I must have missed the part in that article where Fleming went to the North Pole and got rust-eating microbes.

Remember --- they were just discovered --- were they not?

How did Fleming get them?

"Microbes aren't big and impressive and they benefit us in ways that aren't immediately obvious without some education..."

"No, they don't Naraoia --- unless you're talking about some other microbes."

I think I can attest to the fact --- even in my limited knowledge of microbes (okay, my lack of knowledge of microbes) --- that rust-eating microbes at the North Pole do not benefit me at all. I'd venture to say they don't you, either --- as they were just recently discovered.

So basically, your argument was "Silly scientists for being excited over rust-eating molecules, they won't benefit me. Unless it turns out that they do. But even though I know nothing about microorganisms, I know these rust-eating ones won't!"

*clap*

*clap*

*clap*
 
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Naraoia

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Yes. Well, maybe. If the life is similar it could mean that life arises similarly independantly because life can arise in only so many ways. No way to know really. With such a small sample (two worlds) no definitive conclusions could be reached. You'd need a much bigger number of worlds to be able to draw that conclusion.
True, but I do think that there would be differences if life arose independently. Even on earth, convergence abounds (including the molecular level), so clearly there are more than one ways to achieve certain functions - and there's considerable variation even in sequences that carry out the same function and came from a common ancestor (like ribosomal RNAs). Not to mention the genetic code, which is pretty much arbitrary.

So even assuming that independently originated life on Mars invented the same nucleic acid-based heredity and protein-based metabolism using the same nucleotides and amino acids, I'd say there is some chance that we could tell whether they arose independently.

(Though if the common ancestor was far enough back - say, before the invention of the genetic code - then it would be much more problematic to distinguish between convergence and homology)

No, they don't Naraoia --- unless you're talking about some other microbes.
I was talking about microbes in general.

BTW, these kinds of microbes are involved in the sulphur cycle on earth, and sulphur is, among other biological functions, a vital ingredient of proteins. Of every single protein, in fact, because the synthesis of all proteins begins with the addition of a sulphur-containing amino acid... So you're not entirely right even there.

And honestly, would your reaction have been different if they found a new community of oxygen-producing or nitrogen-fixing bacteria?

(My main point wasn't that microbes are useful anyway - it was why on earth you posted in this thread if you're not interested in them.)
 
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AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
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So basically, your argument was "Silly scientists for being excited over rust-eating molecules, they won't benefit me. Unless it turns out that they do. But even though I know nothing about microorganisms, I know these rust-eating ones won't!"

*clap*

*clap*

*clap*
I object to the title of this thread --- microbes are one thing --- but to call it "life" is stretching it.

They may be alive, but calling it "life" is just too pr.

I'll tell you what, Cabal --- if I accept the term "life", and let it drop --- will you accept the fact that God [ultimately] speaks of the Internet in Job?
 
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Cabal

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I object to the title of this thread --- microbes are one thing --- but to call it "life" is stretching it.

They may be alive, but calling it "life" is just too pr.

*blinks*

*drinks*

*sigh*

But why? They're alive!

Also, way to dodge the question of the usefulness of microbes.....

I'll tell you what, Cabal --- if I accept the term "life", and let it drop --- will you accept the fact that God [ultimately] speaks of the Internet in Job?

Reference please.

*crosses fingers that Leviathan and Behemoth are references to lolcats*:prayer:
 
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AV1611VET

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I was talking about microbes in general.
I'm not --- I'm talking about rust-eating microbes at the South Pole, and someone trying to make it look like life can exist w/o oxygen and sunlight.

By extension, that's Day-Age philosophy --- that somehow the angiosperms mentioned in Genesis 1 lived for thousands (or millions) of years w/o sunlight.
 
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AV1611VET

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Cabal

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First you insist that despite not having any microbiological knowledge, these rust-eating microbes are useless. If people like you were in charge 90 years ago, who knows how long it would have taken antibiotic research to take off....to even claim them as remotely in the same category as you claim objects in the extremes of space or high-energy particle physics are is just inane, especially without knowing anything about them.

As for Job and the internet - I....wow.

If you think that exegesis is worth the same weight as the scientific definition of life, you've got another thing coming. And in the context:

Job: "O Lord, why have you sent such torments to me?!" *repeat for 38 chapters*
God: BECAUSE I MADE THE INTERNETS LOL!!!!1

Seriously - everything else in that chapter uses nature imagery - Job would probably have been able to relate to things in nature (relate to them better than he would to a computer network from the 20th century, anyway).
 
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Naraoia

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How about these guys - big enough? complicated enough? Too many legs?

They're tough - can even survive in space, for a while.

Tiny Water Bears Triumph Over Outer Space Xenophilia (True Strange Stuff)
Aww, water bears! Cutest animals ever!

After the swimming ice cream cones with eyes that are Pomatoceros larvae, of course. (Gosh, I totally sound like a proud parent. ^_^)



I object to the title of this thread --- microbes are one thing --- but to call it "life" is stretching it.

They may be alive, but calling it "life" is just too pr.
Why, again? I thought "life" was the collection of things that are alive?

Out of curiosity, where do you think "life" begins?

You sound totally like juvenissun, and I don't mean that as a compliment.
 
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Naraoia

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I'm not --- I'm talking about rust-eating microbes at the South Pole, and someone trying to make it look like life can exist w/o oxygen and sunlight.
Trying to make it look like? You've got to be kidding me. Life undoubtedly can exist without oxygen and light, and does so in many places on earth. What's more, you can even grow some of those life forms in the lab, where you can be sure they only get what you give them.

By extension, that's Day-Age philosophy --- that somehow the angiosperms mentioned in Genesis 1 lived for thousands (or millions) of years w/o sunlight.
There's the slight difference that the whole metabolism of angiosperms is powered by light energy. This is not the case for many (well, in fact, most) other life forms.
 
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Avatar

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Avatar, we've already been over this, you make it sound like a simple distance thing when it's not.

You're not convincing anyone with a simple ascii drawing that completely ignores:
1. Gravitational pulls.
2. Different planetary orbibs.
3. Planet/moon radius.
4. The slingshot effect.
5. The angle at which debris is thrown away.
6. Etc, etc...

Come up with some real data and we'll continue talking. I'm not neccesarily saying your idea is wrong, I'm saying your way of reasoning to reach a conclusion is unsupported and therefore meaningless.

I don't understand why you want to keep this going when it's clear you don't even want to do any research about it...

- Ectezus

To what end? To convince you? You're the only person in this thread who needs to be convinced that it's easier to hit Mars than Europa or Titan with a rock thrown from Earth. You might be able to make an argument that increased gravity causes as many objects thrown from Earth to hit Jupiter, maybe, but certainly not Europa. That this isn't immediately obvious to you and requires supporting data other than distance is, um, surprising. I'm left thinking it's you who have yourself in an unsupportable position and are trying to extricate yourself from the thread by shifting the burden of proof to me (when I've already given my proof, sheer distance).
 
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Ectezus

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It's so obvious!
How can you not see it!
It's so simple Aaagghh!!
All the examples you listed obviously have less impact than distance. Pff who needs gravity!

Here let me demonstrate by not showing any calculation despite it being so simple!

Fixed.


In a nutshell:
You think your statement is logical even without proof, I question the validity of it and don't just take your word for it.

Lets leave it at that.

- Ectezus

I really don't understand why you want to continue this. Especially when you claim that everyone besides me already believes you on your only-one-variable-matters theory. ^_^
 
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Avatar

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Fixed.




I really don't understand why you want to continue this. Especially when you claim that everyone besides me already believes you on your only-one-variable-matters theory. ^_^

Of the 5 other variables you mentioned only gravity could conceivably make a difference and I addressed that in my last post.

Enjoy your fail. ^_^

And since you have less than nothing, by your own admission, to bring to the discussion... :wave:
 
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1. Gravitational pulls. Europa's gravity is less than Mars = more strikes on Mars
2. Different planetary orbibs. Europa is sometime's in Jupiter's shadow= more strikes on Mars
3. Planet/moon radius. Mars radius is greater than Europa's = more strikes on Mars
4. The slingshot effect. Affects both planets equally = irrelevant factor
5. The angle at which debris is thrown away. Both planets are in the same orbital plane = irrelevant factor
6. Etc, etc... = You got nothing

Fixed
 
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Ectezus

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Europa's gravity is less than Mars = more strikes on Mars
Europa + Jupiter > Mars.

Mars radius is greater than Europa's = more strikes on Mars
I know it has a greater Radius. I looked it up. It's about twice the size. My whole point was that Avatar did NOT mention this at all, he didn't look it up. His statement was about distance alone. Which is simply a horrible way to reach a conclusion.
I mentioned factors that had influence on the outcome besides *just distance*. Radius does have influence, thats why I listed it, even though it favors the chance of getting hit. My point is not to prove his statement wrong but him reaching a conclusion without evidence and clearly not knowing all the relevant factors. It would be dishonest of me if I didn't mention radius of the planets/moons as an important factor in the list. I didn't do that. So whats your point?

The slingshot effect. Affects both planets equally = irrelevant factor
Wrong, matter can potentially be caught in Mars' gravitational pull yet miss it and be flung towards Europa. Not the other way around.


Of the 5 other variables you mentioned only gravity could conceivably make a difference and I addressed that in my last post.

Enjoy your fail. ^_^

And since you have less than nothing, by your own admission, to bring to the discussion... :wave:

Ah... the infamous self declared victory post.
Gotta love it.

- Ectezus
 
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Wrong, matter can potentially be caught in Mars' gravitational pull yet miss it and be flung towards Europa. Not the other way around.

And matter can be caught in Mars' gravitational pull and impact Mars thus never reaching the orbit of Europa. Not the other way around.

In fact material has to pass the orbit of Mars and the asteriod belt before reaching Europa. Thus less matter makes it to the orbit of Europa than makes it to the orbit of Mars.

You don't have a leg to stand on, give it up.

As for the relative sizes of Europa and Mars, you're right that I didn't look it up. I already knew it. And assumed anyone else posting in this subforum would as well. Forgive me for giving you too much credit.

I will spell everything out for you from now on. I never had to assume another participant in a thread was approaching the thread with zero knowledge. For your sake I'll make that assumption in the future in threads in which you participate and spell everything out in terms even the simplest person can follow.

I can even, if you like, define each word I use rather than running the risk of assuming other participants know the meanings of common words. What level of detail would you like me to resort to so that I don't inadvertently make assumptions about what is commonly understood?
 
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Ectezus

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This is getting a bit ridiculous :scratch:

Yeah, we should have more astrologers on this forum. :)


And matter can be caught in Mars' gravitational pull and impact Mars thus never reaching the orbit of Europa. Not the other way around.

Only a small percentage actually gets caught in an gravitational orbit where it can't escape anymore. A much larger percentage is bend away from it's original course and be slingshotted towards the outer solar system.
Does it matter? How much impact does it have on the actual outcome? Who knows. Point is, you don't yet you claim to know the answer!

You keep saying that this is such a simple matter over and over again. That everyone should just believe you that it's only a matter of distance.
Fine, believe whatever you want. Your inability to back up your statements with calculations or any kind of proof says more than enough.
Yes distance matters, but how much relative to all the other factors of influence? Care to put a percentage on it? 80? 60?
You. Don't. Know. Period.

- Ectezus
 
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could you guys give it a rest now?

Oh come, on Hespera, take a side! :p

In fact I will accept you as final arbiter of who is right and who is wrong, I trust in your impartiality. I'm sure Ectezus will agree, as he seems a reasonable (though nitpicky) fella.

By your decree shall this whizzing contest end. :)

Agreed Ectezus?
 
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