490 years Daniel 9 - my chart

[Douggg]

You can right click on the chart and choose view image to get a larger view.

 

[solid_core]

View attachment 279655

Why are your charts missing the destruction of the temple, the end of sacrifices, the dispersion of Jews and why do you suppose its has been unfulfilled?

These events have been the biggest and longest in the whole Jewish history.

 

[Douggg]

Why are your charts missing the destruction of the temple, the end of sacrifices, the dispersion of Jews and why do you suppose its has been unfulfilled?

The destruction of the temple, the dispersion of the Jews, are not in the Daniel 9 490 years. They are in the Olivet Discourse on my chart of the Olivet Disource below, as the near term future of Israel and the Jews. And the beginning of the long term future of Israel and the Jews as the Jew began being forced into the nations.

The first 483 years of the 490 years ended when the messiah was cutoff. The remaining 7 years is future and begins when the Antichrist confirming the Mt Sinai covenant for the 7 years cycle that Moses established in Deuteronomy 31:9-13.

The 490 years of prophecy ends the day that Jesus returns in Revelation 19.

 

[solid_core]

The destruction of the temple, the dispersion of the Jews, are not in the Daniel 9 490 years.

They are:

26 And after the sixty-two weeks, Christ shall be destroyed, and there is no judgment in him: and he shall destroy the city and the sanctuary with the prince that is coming: they shall be cut off with a flood, and to the end of the war which is rapidly completed he shall appoint [the city] to desolations.

27 And one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away: and on the temple [shall be] the abomination of desolations
Daniel 9

 

[DavidPT]

Why are your charts missing the destruction of the temple, the end of sacrifices, the dispersion of Jews and why do you suppose its has been unfulfilled?

These events have been the biggest and longest in the whole Jewish history.

Douggg's chart is only dealing with the 70 weeks. That gap you see between the first 69 weeks and the 70th week, that is where all of those things you brought up fits.

 

[Douggg]

They are:

26 And after the sixty-two weeks, Christ shall be destroyed, and there is no judgment in him: and he shall destroy the city and the sanctuary with the prince that is coming: they shall be cut off with a flood, and to the end of the war which is rapidly completed he shall appoint [the city] to desolations.

27 And one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away: and on the temple [shall be] the abomination of desolations
Daniel 9

The KJV....

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

[Douggg]

Douggg's chart is only dealing with the 70 weeks. That gap you see between the first 69 weeks and the 70th week, that is where all of those things you brought up fits.

Thanks.

 

[DavidPT]

They are:

26 And after the sixty-two weeks, Christ shall be destroyed, and there is no judgment in him: and he shall destroy the city and the sanctuary with the prince that is coming: they shall be cut off with a flood, and to the end of the war which is rapidly completed he shall appoint [the city] to desolations.

27 And one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away: and on the temple [shall be] the abomination of desolations
Daniel 9

Do you then agree there is a gap in the 70 weeks? It looks like to me that there would have to be a gap in the 70th week itself, if some of verse 27 is meaning an earlier time, and that some of it is meaning a later time. The earlier time---Christ's death. The later time---when the temple is destroyed 40 years later, thus a gap in the middle of the 70th week.

 

[solid_core]

Do you then agree there is a gap in the 70 weeks? It looks like to me that there would have to be a gap in the 70th week itself, if some of verse 27 is meaning an earlier time, and that some of it is meaning a later time. The earlier time---Christ's death. The later time---when the temple is destroyed 40 years later, thus a gap in the middle of the 70th week.

I am not sure if it can be called a gap, because it all happened in the same generation. The same people witnessing the life and resurrection of Christ witnessed also the destruction of the temple, of the city and of the nation.

"This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."
Mt 24:34

"this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. "
Mk 13:30

"This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. "
Lk 21:32

The prophetical language can be, of course, somehow ambiguous. But not so hugely that it ignores two millenia.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Ahem!

 

[solid_core]

The KJV....

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The KJV is just a medieval English translation, it cannot be authoritative too much. We need to look to the LXX.

But anyway, what you think the change in the KJV changes in eschatology?

 

[DavidPT]

I am not sure if it can be called a gap, because it all happened in the same generation. The same people witnessing the life and resurrection of Christ witnessed also the destruction of the temple, of the city and of the nation.

"This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."
Mt 24:34

"this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. "
Mk 13:30

"This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. "
Lk 21:32

The prophetical language can be, of course, somehow ambiguous. But not so hugely that it ignores two millenia.

The context of verse 27 is the 70th week. None of it involves anything prior to the 70th week, nor after the 70th week. That means if Christ is meant, that this part---and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate---has to be fulfilled within 3.5 years of His death, in order for there to be no gaps in the 70 weeks. Either that, or the interpreter has to admit that there is a gap in the 70 weeks, in this case, in the middle of the 70th week. If there can be a gap there, why can't there be a gap before the 70th week? A gap is a gap no matter how you look at it.

 

[Douggg]

The KJV is just a medieval English translation, it cannot be authoritative too much. We need to look to the LXX.

But anyway, what you think the change in the KJV changes in eschatology?

The LXX you copied and pasted goes from a hebrew to greek translation. Then from a greek translation to an English translation.

The KJV doesn't change the eschatology.

 

[solid_core]

The context of verse 27 is the 70th week. None of it involves anything prior to the 70th week, nor after the 70th week. That means if Christ is meant, that this part---and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate---has to be fulfilled within 3.5 years of His death, in order for there to be no gaps in the 70 weeks. Either that, or the interpreter has to admit that there is a gap in the 70 weeks, in this case, in the middle of the 70th week. If there can be a gap there, why can't there be a gap before the 70th week? A gap is a gap no matter how you look at it.

The text is very ambiguous. We can read it in many different ways, we can end sentences in various places etc.

But Daniel does speak about the new covenant, about the destruction of the temple, about the end of sacrifices, about the atonement of sins. It all happened in the first century, there is no two millenia gap needed.

 

[solid_core]

The LXX you copied and pasted goes from a hebrew to greek translation. Then from a greek translation to an English translation.

The KJV doesn't change the eschatology.

There were several lines of Hebrew texts, from which two main emerged. The one the LXX translators translated from, this one was adopted by the first Christians and therefore rejected by the Jews.

Jews selected another textual line (and probably edited it to bloat out the prophecies about Christ) which is today known as the masoretic text. This text was used in the KJV, because the medieval translators did not know better.

The LXX is not a translation of the same Hebrew text which the KJV used. Therefore there are huge differences between the LXX and the KJV Old Testament.

 

[Douggg]

The text is very ambiguous. We can read it in many different ways, we can end sentences in various places etc.

But Daniel does speak about the new covenant, about the destruction of the temple, about the end of sacrifices, about the atonement of sins. It all happened in the first century, there is no two millenia gap needed.

The first 483 years pointed to the events of Jesus's first coming.

The last 7 years point to the event of Jesus's second coming.

 

[solid_core]

The first 483 years pointed to the events of Jesus's first coming.

The last 7 years point to the event of Jesus's second coming.

The last 7 years describe events that already happened, though. Why to push it to the future?

 

[Douggg]

The last 7 years describe events that already happened, though.

The Jews have not embrace Jesus as the messiah yet.

Jesus was cutoff before the 7 years begin. Temple and city destroyed 40 years after Jesus cutoff.

Abomination of Desolation of Daniel 12:11-12 has not happened yet.

Revelation 6-19 is still part of the bible. We are living in the end times period of the Olivet discourse.

 

[solid_core]

The Jews have not embrace Jesus as the messiah yet.

Daniel does not predict anything like that. Also, some Jews did, like His apostles and other disciples.

Jesus was cutoff before the 7 years begin. Temple and city destroyed 40 years after Jesus cutoff.

So we agree that it really was destroyed.

Abomination of Desolation of Daniel 12:11-12 has not happened yet.

No reason to think so. The temple is desolated.

Revelation 6-19 is still part of the bible.

And the Bible was written in the first century, not in the 21st.

 

[Douggg]

Daniel does not predict anything like that. Also, some Jews did, like His apostles and other disciples.

But most Jews did not.


John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.