Geological Sciences v. YEC/Flood Geology

Mechanical Bliss

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It seems as though every day on this forum the same empty statement is made that the evidence fits the Young Earth/global flood model of creationism without anything backing up the statement and even after it has been demonstrated to be a false model with respect to the geologic evidence.

The purpose of this thread is to be both a reference and debate thread. I keep posting the links to other threads falsifying YECism/flood geology and they are consistently getting ignored. Instead, I'm going to post the links at the beginning of the thread (feel free to add the ones I've missed while looking around, or bring up new points, of course). That is, whenever the same empty YEC claims are brought up, all we should have to do is bump up this thread or reference this thread when geology comes up. Other arguments that fall outside of geology such as biodiversity, biogeography, insects, etc. can be explored elsewhere (sorry, Frumious although you have brought up interesting and new arguments the forum hasn't really seen before...your threads are stand-alone classics). However, paleontological and biostratigraphic observations can and should be discussed here as they are relevant geological sciences.

My thread on 12 features in the Grand Canyon that cannot exist under a global flood/young earth model

notto's thread on the Hawaiian Island Chain and the submerged Emperor Seamount Chain illustrating the nature of plate tectonics

my thread (new as of 08.10.03) on the Hawaiian Island Chain as a supplement to the above link that gives a refutation of catastrophic plate tectonics and our ability to predict radiometric dates of the islands

ardipithecus' thread on angular unconformities, or erosional surfaces between stratigraphic sequences whose original horizontality has not been preserved (and unconformities in general have been discussed here also).

my thread on varves, or seasonal rhythmites deposited in lakes annually

Arikay's thread on the mathematical analysis of implications of a global flooding event with respect to implications in hydrogeology, the atmosphere, and other topics

Frumious Bandersnatch's thread (new as of 08.10.03) on evaporites

Frumious Bandersnatch's other thread (new as of 08.10.03) on large igneous provinces

and notto's thread (new as of 12.03.03) on Devil's Tower

The notion of a worldwide flooding mechanism has been long falsified as has a young earth.

It might be best to choose one point at a time to discuss from any of the above threads, or else bring up a new topic. However, bringing up a new topic does not make the above arguments that falsify flood geology go away at all.

Hopefully this can be used as a thread to reference when a geological topic comes up as it is fairly broad, but at least now the comprehensive geological arguments can now be found in one place and don't have to be repeated endlessly.
 

Mechanical Bliss

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Perhaps I should instead start from a more generalized perspective and then the above topics can be addressed along the way once the framework of the discussion is better defined.

I'll start with a few questions that will operate under an assumption that denies the fact that there is not enough water on Earth to flood it as per Biblical specifications assumed by YECists/flood geologists (discussed in Arikay's thread linked above):

1. What stratum or sequence of strata in the geologic record represent a period of global flooding and the resulting sedimentary deposition?

2. What is the duration of this flooding event?

This will establish what strata we are talking about (if not all of them) as well as the time it took to deposit those strata, and we can then move on to problematic features based upon answers to the above questions.

...unless you have other ideas or topics to discuss relevant to the thread...
 
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Frumious Bandersnatch

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5th April 2003 at 12:07 AM Mechanical Bliss said this in Post #2

Perhaps I should instead start from a more generalized perspective and then the above topics can be addressed along the way once the framework of the discussion is better defined.

I'll start with a few questions that will operate under an assumption that denies the fact that there is not enough water on Earth to flood it as per Biblical specifications assumed by YECists/flood geologists (discussed in Arikay's thread linked above):

1. What stratum or sequence of strata in the geologic record represent a period of global flooding and the resulting sedimentary deposition?

2. What is the duration of this flooding event?

This will establish what strata we are talking about (if not all of them) as well as the time it took to deposit those strata, and we can then move on to problematic features based upon answers to the above questions.

...unless you have other ideas or topics to discuss relevant to the thread...

You don't seriously expect answers to these questions do you? What have you been smoking today?  Can I have some?

The Frumious Bandersnatch
 
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Mechanical Bliss

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Hahaha....

Well, you know, when it's repeatedly claimed that the evidence "easily" fits a Young Earth model with the mechanism being a global flooding event, the answers to the questions or refutations of the evidence that falsifies their model should be no problem to post.
 
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Freedom777

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Arikay

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:)

The problem is that as I mentioned before. If the evidence is out there that supports creationism, how come we have yet to see it?

You make a hypothesis (creation/flood) then you try to disprove it, if the evidence you find fits the hypothesis, then it strengthens it, if it doesnt fit, then you have disproved the hypothesis and move on.

If the hypothesis of YEC is true, then there should be some things that we should see. but we see the opposite.
Why?
 
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Frumious Bandersnatch

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5th April 2003 at 02:41 AM Freedom777 said this in Post #6

I think that statement would better be stated as follows Evolution Biased Geological Science v.s Creation Biased Geological/Flood Science.
The Clash of the Titans:):)


Ok. So can your geological/flood science "titans" tell us exactly when the flood deposits commence and end in the geologic column? This was supposed to be a unique event that changed all the world's geology.  These "titans" you speak of should be able to tell us eactly which deposits are flood deposits. If they can't do it perhaps the reason they can't is because there are no deposits that were laid down by a worldwide flood. 

Of course they should be able to easily answer all the other questions that have been raised about the flood but I haven't seen much in the way of answers discussed here.  Start with the ones Mechanical Bliss discussed in his first post on the thread.  Maybe on your "titans" can explain the presence of hundreds of trillions of tons of salt that was supposedly deposited during the worldwide flood. I brought that up on the fun with flood math thread and I would really like to see an answer. This is one of those observations you claim can be easily fit into a young earth time frame if interpreted correctly so let's see your "correct" interpretation.

The Frumious Banersnatch
 
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Arikay

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The problem is that this flood model doesnt answer many questions.

Basic Problems with it:

1) No biblical reference of mountain building after the flood.

2) If the mountains build during the flood, the ark would have been beached. If the mountains formed after the flood it would have killed off all the animals (for reason see #3)

3) The amount of energy needed to move the techtonic plates like that would have been enough to turn the earth into a ball of magma.

4) Doesnt explain the fossil record.

5) Geological evidence shows a slow growth, not fast.


I believe there are more problems with this model, but these are what I can remember.

:)


4th April 2003 at 06:57 PM Freedom777 said this in Post #7

Ya know if you were to flaten the earths surface their would be enough water to flood the earth completely in 100 ft of water.The mountain Ranges formed as a result of the flood. The geological processes involved was immence. Their are quit a few Creation scientists working on the flood model.
I would encourage you to read some http://www.icr.org/cgi-bin/search/search.cgi?Realm=Entire+ICR+Website&Terms=plate+tectonics
 
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Plumbdumb

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Arikay, I can no more prove God created everything than you can prove the big bang (or whatever theory you hold to) was the cause of creation. I accept my beliefs by Faith.............just like you accept yours. :)

 

Footnote: I don't profess to understand just HOW God created this world. He may have used some of the Theories that are popular now to do His work. I simply believe the He did it. But then, I'm just...........
 
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Arikay

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Plumb: Good for you. :) Contrary to what many people think science doesnt try to eliminate god. On the contrary any reasonable scientist would say that it is just as possible that god created the universe. science is the study of how this universe works. Its currently impossible for science to say that god definatly didnt create the Universe. However science has said for over 200 years that god Did Not do it the literal way the bible says. But the bible is not god, even though some people seem to think it is. :)
 
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Frumious Bandersnatch

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5th April 2003 at 02:57 AM Freedom777 said this in Post #7

Ya know if you were to flaten the earths surface their would be enough water to flood the earth completely in 100 ft of water.The mountain Ranges formed as a result of the flood. The geological processes involved was immence. Their are quit a few Creation scientists working on the flood model.
I would encourage you to read some http://www.icr.org/cgi-bin/search/search.cgi?Realm=Entire+ICR+Website&Terms=plate+tectonics
 

Baumgardner's BFM (boiling flood model) cooks the earth to death thousands of times over. It is admited to release 10[sup]28[/sup] Joules of energy when it starts and in addition the crust under the entire ocean dives into the earth and is replaced by molten mantle material. In fact it is super hot molten mantle material because Baumgardner uses an ad hoc heating of the mantle to reduce mantle viscosity about 100,000,000 times to get the process started. 

How much energy is 10[sup]28[/sup]  J? It is about 3 times the energy required to boil all the water in all the world's oceans.

One million tons of TNT releases 4.18 x 10^15 Joules of energy.  Thus 10[sup]28[/sup] is equivalent to about 2,400,000,000,000 one megaton hydrogen bombs and this is released before the entire ocean crust is replaced by molten mantle which will probably release another 10[sup]28[/sup] J of heat as it solidifies.

I can provide more details of the calculations that totally falsify the BFM if anyone would like to see them and somewhere I have a link to Kurt Wise giving a talk in which he admits that the model releases enough heat to boil the oceans away many times over and that there is no known mechanism for the heat to get out.

If you want to try to defend the boiling flood model I would recommend starting another thread. The BFM does not provide an accurate prediction of the world's geology either.  For example it predicts a very different profile of the ocean depths as shown by Joe Meert.

http://gondwanaresearch.com/oceans.htm

If this runaway subduction had happened in the last several thousand years to cause a global flood as ICR claims we would still have an atmosphere of high pressure steam and no life on earth.

The Frumious Bandersnatch
 
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Plumbdumb

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Of course, when I say I believe that God created everything I include all the laws and principle of science. If He created them and He is a God of order - which I believe the Scriptures confirms - it's entirely possible that He used those same laws and principles in creation. It's also concievable (to me at least) that He simply spoke everything into being. I happen to believe the latter, but my Faith in Him as Creator and God would not be shaken IF He used another approach to Create this world and all in it.

I really should get my wife to post her thoughts here. We've had a lot of lively and serious discussions about this during our 36 years together.  :eek: Seems like only yesterday when we first met.....wait! That would belong on another forum, right?
 
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Arikay

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I would agree with you Plumb.

One interesting thing is that the theory of the big bang says that space and time (spacetime) was created by the big bang.
We can Not see beyond spacetime, So it is currently impossible to see what happend before the big bang (if anything) or if there is anything outside our universe. This means god could have set everything up.
 
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Mechanical Bliss

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4th April 2003 at 09:41 PM Freedom777 said this in Post #6

I think that statement would better be stated as follows Evolution Biased Geological Science v.s Creation Biased Geological/Flood Science.
The Clash of the Titans:):)


No, it wouldn't be stated better that way unless you want to discuss paleontology or biostratigraphy.

The Old Earth model has been considered even before evolution was a scientific theory. It was proposed by Christian geologists who realized that their Young Earth model was falsified.

This has nothing to do with evolution. It has everything to do with geology. Either you can answer the questions or not. There's no bias involved here.
 
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Mechanical Bliss

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4th April 2003 at 09:57 PM Freedom777 said this in Post #7

Ya know if you were to flaten the earths surface their would be enough water to flood the earth completely in 100 ft of water.The mountain Ranges formed as a result of the flood. The geological processes involved was immence. Their are quit a few Creation scientists working on the flood model.
I would encourage you to read some http://www.icr.org/cgi-bin/search/search.cgi?Realm=Entire+ICR+Website&Terms=plate+tectonics


Irrelavent.

Still dodging the questions, I see.

There is no mechanism that shows how the mountain ranges formed (and on Earth they are of different ages, not the same) in such a short time without destroying the Earth.

My questions are based upon the assumption that there is enough water on Earth.
 
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Mechanical Bliss

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4th April 2003 at 11:14 PM Plumbdumb said this in Post #14

Of course, when I say I believe that God created everything I include all the laws and principle of science. 


Then you are incorrect about the principles of science. Science is a man-made construct--a naturalistic methodology created by humans to interpret the world around them.

There are questions in the opening thread.

Why do people keep detracting from the topic? What is so hard about answering the questions directly?
 
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Mechanical Bliss

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Let's try this again: establishing the framework of discussion. Now I want to stay on topic because apparently creationists think dodging the topic somehow refutes it.

1. What stratum or sequence of strata in the geologic record represent a period of global flooding and the resulting sedimentary deposition?

2. What is the duration of this flooding event?

This will establish what strata we are talking about (if not all of them) as well as the time it took to deposit those strata, and we can then move on to problematic features based upon answers to the above questions.
 
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