4 Common Progressive Christian Mistakes in Interpreting the Great Commission (Matthew 28;16-20)

Berserk · Jun 7, 2023

4 COMMON PROGRESSIVE MISTAKES IN INTERPRETING THE GREAT COMMISSION:
(1) They often treat it as a call to serve the needy rather than as a call to proselytize and convert others.
It is a call to "make disciples" of Jesus--disciples who embrace His mission and teaching.

(2) They often duck its implication that unbelievers need to be taught Jesus' atoning death and resurrection.
Jesus succinctly states His mission in Matthew 20:28: "The Son of Man has come not to be served but to serve and to give His life a ransom for many."
The same atonement teaching of Jesus is found in Mark 10:45 and throughout John's Gospel and the rest of the New Testament.
Jesus rebuffs Peter's opposition to His mission of atonement: "Get behind me, Satan; ... for you are not on God's side but on man's side (Matthew 16;22)."

(3) They often duck its clear implication that unbelievers should be taught to worship Jesus.
"When they saw Him, they worshiped Him." The implicit mandate to teach new disciples to worship Him is implicit in His promise, "Remember. I am with you aways, even till the end of the age (28:20)" and His prior statement, "Where 2 or 3 are gathered in my name, there am I in their midst (18:20)."

(4) They often duck its implication that converts need an intimate personal relationship with Jesus.
If Jesus is present to be worshiped in the gathered community, then the relationship established by this worship is an intimate personal one. Jesus makes this clear by repeating this saying 3 times in our Gospels: on the Day of Judgment, He will tell some believers who thought they were serving him to get lost:
"Depart from Me; I never knew you (Matthew 7:23; 25:11-12; Luke 13:27)."
The phrase "I never knew you" clearly means "I never had an intimate personal relationship with you."

This essential personal relationship requires that we love Him even more than our families:
"Whoever loves (their family) more than me is not worthy of Me (Matthew 10:37)" and cannot be my disciple (Luke 14:26-27)."
Woke progressives for whom Jesus is little more than an organizing principle for ethical living and the pursuit of social justice can hardly be said to love Jesus more than their families. The kind of unrivaled love Jesus envisages is intimately personal and passionate.
Note that, for Jesus, failure to satisfy both teachings disqualifies one from the status as a true follower of Jesus.

The Risen Jesus poetically portrays this intimate personal relationship as feasting with Jesus, and Jesus feasting with us.
"Look, I am standing at the door, knocking. Whoever hears my voice and opens the door, I will come into them and feast with them and they with me (Revelation 3:20)."
Failure to establish such an intimate relationship makes believers "lukewarm" and warrants the risen Lord's rejection:
"Because you are lukewarm and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth (3:16)."

In John Jesus powerfully stresses the need for an intimate personal relationship with Him:
"I am the Good Shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father (John 10:14)."
"Those who love me will be loved by my Father, and I will love them AND REVEAL MYSELF TO THEM (John 14:21.)"
Similarly, Paul longs to know Christ personally, not just to know ABOUT Him: "I want to know Christ (Philippians 3:10)."

Berserk · Jun 7, 2023

I have a devout evangelical friend who recently confessed to me, "I have been a Christian all my life, but I don't have an identifiable intimate personal relationship with Christ. I just trust in Christ's finished work on the cross and don't worry about subjective religious experience.' Many other evangelicals just affirm that they have a personal relationship with Christ as a matter of faith and don't concern themselves about whether this claim rings true in their actual subjective experience. So it's not just progressive Christians that have this attitude.

seeking.IAM · Jun 7, 2023

Methinks OP knows a whole lot more about the Bible than about the mindset of progressive Christians.

Soyeong · Jun 7, 2023

Berserk said:
4 COMMON PROGRESSIVE MISTAKES IN INTERPRETING THE GREAT COMMISSION:
(1) They often treat it as a call to serve the needy rather than as a call to proselytize and convert others.
It is a call to "make disciples" of Jesus--disciples who embrace His mission and teaching.

(2) They often duck its implication that unbelievers need to be taught Jesus' atoning death and resurrection.
Jesus succinctly states His mission in Matthew 20:28: "The Son of Man has come not to be served but to serve and to give His life a ransom for many."
The same atonement teaching of Jesus is found in Mark 10:45 and throughout John's Gospel and the rest of the New Testament.
Jesus rebuffs Peter's opposition to His mission of atonement: "Get behind me, Satan; ... for you are not on God's side but on man's side (Matthew 16;22)."

(3) They often duck its clear implication that unbelievers should be taught to worship Jesus.
"When they saw Him, they worshiped Him." The implicit mandate to teach new disciples to worship Him is implicit in His promise, "Remember. I am with you aways, even till the end of the age (28:20)" and His prior statement, "Where 2 or 3 are gathered in my name, there am I in their midst (18:20)."

(4) They often duck its implication that converts need an intimate personal relationship with Jesus.
If Jesus is present to be worshiped in the gathered community, then the relationship established by this worship is an intimate personal one. Jesus makes this clear by repeating this saying 3 times in our Gospels: on the Day of Judgment, He will tell some believers who thought they were serving him to get lost:
"Depart from Me; I never knew you (Matthew 7:23; 25:11-12; Luke 13:27)."
The phrase "I never knew you" clearly means "I never had an intimate personal relationship with you."

This essential personal relationship requires that we love Him even more than our families:
"Whoever loves (their family) more than me is not worthy of Me (Matthew 10:37)" and cannot be my disciple (Luke 14:26-27)."
Woke progressives for whom Jesus is little more than an organizing principle for ethical living and the pursuit of social justice can hardly be said to love Jesus more than their families. The kind of unrivaled love Jesus envisages is intimately personal and passionate.
Note that, for Jesus, failure to satisfy both teachings disqualifies one from the status as a true follower of Jesus.

The Risen Jesus poetically portrays this intimate personal relationship as feasting with Jesus, and Jesus feasting with us.
"Look, I am standing at the door, knocking. Whoever hears my voice and opens the door, I will come into them and feast with them and they with me (Revelation 3:20)."
Failure to establish such an intimate relationship makes believers "lukewarm" and warrants the risen Lord's rejection:
"Because you are lukewarm and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth (3:16)."

In John Jesus powerfully stresses the need for an intimate personal relationship with Him:
"I am the Good Shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father (John 10:14)."
"Those who love me will be loved by my Father, and I will love them AND REVEAL MYSELF TO THEM (John 14:21.)"
Similarly, Paul longs to know Christ personally, not just to know ABOUT Him: "I want to know Christ (Philippians 3:10)."

I think that the biggest things that people miss about the Great Commission is that a disciple/rabbi relationship is core to Judaism and the goal of a disciple is to learn how to walk in obedience to the Torah like their rabbi by memorizing their teachings, by learning how to think and act like them, and by essentially becoming an imitation of them reborn in their image. We see this line of thought expressed in verses like 1 Peter 2:21-22, where we are told to follow his example, 1 John 2:6, where those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked in the same way he walked, 1 Corinthians 11:1, where we are to be imitators of Paul as he is an imitator of Christ, in Romans 8:29, where we are to be conformed to the image of Christ, 1 John 2:29, where he is righteous and everyone who practices righteousness is born of him, and in Luke 6:40, where a disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher.

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the nations, and the Torah was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel, which he prophesied would be proclaimed to all nations (Matthew 24:12-14), and is the Gospel that he instructed his disciples to bring to the nations, teaching everything that he taught them. Jesus also set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Torah. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the sum of everything that he taught his disciples by word and by example and accomplished through the cross was to lead us to walk in obedience to the Torah, and this is what he wanted his disciples to teach to the nations.

In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he might know him, in 1 John 2:4, those who say that they know Jesus but don't obey his commands are liars, in 1 John 3:4-6, those who continue to practice sin in transgression of the Torah have neither seen nor known him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness because he never knew them, so the goal of the Torah is to teach us how to have the experience of knowing God and Jesus, which is the experience of eternal life (John 17:3). In other words, the Torah was given as a gift for the purpose of teaching us how to have a personal relationship with Jesus. Another way to put it is that the Torah is God's word and Jesus is God's word made flesh, so us embodying the commands of the Torah through following the example of the one who is the embodiment of the Torah is the way to have a relationship with him.

Berserk said:
I have a devout evangelical friend who recently confessed to me, "I have been a Christian all my life, but I don't have an identifiable intimate personal relationship with Christ. I just trust in Christ's finished work on the cross and don't worry about subjective religious experience.' Many other evangelicals just affirm that they have a personal relationship with Christ as a matter of faith and don't concern themselves about whether this claim rings true in their actual subjective experience. So it's not just progressive Christians that have this attitude.

It is contradictory for someone to trust in Christ's finished work on the cross while not worry about having a relationship with him because the work of the cross was to make the way for us to have a relationship with him.

Bible Highlighter · Jun 7, 2023

Berserk said:
4 COMMON PROGRESSIVE MISTAKES IN INTERPRETING THE GREAT COMMISSION:
(1) They often treat it as a call to serve the needy rather than as a call to proselytize and convert others.
It is a call to "make disciples" of Jesus--disciples who embrace His mission and teaching.

(2) They often duck its implication that unbelievers need to be taught Jesus' atoning death and resurrection.
Jesus succinctly states His mission in Matthew 20:28: "The Son of Man has come not to be served but to serve and to give His life a ransom for many."
The same atonement teaching of Jesus is found in Mark 10:45 and throughout John's Gospel and the rest of the New Testament.
Jesus rebuffs Peter's opposition to His mission of atonement: "Get behind me, Satan; ... for you are not on God's side but on man's side (Matthew 16;22)."

(3) They often duck its clear implication that unbelievers should be taught to worship Jesus.
"When they saw Him, they worshiped Him." The implicit mandate to teach new disciples to worship Him is implicit in His promise, "Remember. I am with you aways, even till the end of the age (28:20)" and His prior statement, "Where 2 or 3 are gathered in my name, there am I in their midst (18:20)."

(4) They often duck its implication that converts need an intimate personal relationship with Jesus.
If Jesus is present to be worshiped in the gathered community, then the relationship established by this worship is an intimate personal one. Jesus makes this clear by repeating this saying 3 times in our Gospels: on the Day of Judgment, He will tell some believers who thought they were serving him to get lost:
"Depart from Me; I never knew you (Matthew 7:23; 25:11-12; Luke 13:27)."
The phrase "I never knew you" clearly means "I never had an intimate personal relationship with you."

This essential personal relationship requires that we love Him even more than our families:
"Whoever loves (their family) more than me is not worthy of Me (Matthew 10:37)" and cannot be my disciple (Luke 14:26-27)."
Woke progressives for whom Jesus is little more than an organizing principle for ethical living and the pursuit of social justice can hardly be said to love Jesus more than their families. The kind of unrivaled love Jesus envisages is intimately personal and passionate.
Note that, for Jesus, failure to satisfy both teachings disqualifies one from the status as a true follower of Jesus.

The Risen Jesus poetically portrays this intimate personal relationship as feasting with Jesus, and Jesus feasting with us.
"Look, I am standing at the door, knocking. Whoever hears my voice and opens the door, I will come into them and feast with them and they with me (Revelation 3:20)."
Failure to establish such an intimate relationship makes believers "lukewarm" and warrants the risen Lord's rejection:
"Because you are lukewarm and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth (3:16)."

In John Jesus powerfully stresses the need for an intimate personal relationship with Him:
"I am the Good Shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father (John 10:14)."
"Those who love me will be loved by my Father, and I will love them AND REVEAL MYSELF TO THEM (John 14:21.)"
Similarly, Paul longs to know Christ personally, not just to know ABOUT Him: "I want to know Christ (Philippians 3:10)."

We can have an assurance that we know Jesus if we keep His commandments (1 John 2:3).
Believers do need to believe the gospel first (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) followed by calling upon the name of the Lord (i.e., declaring Him “Lord Jesus”) and by seeking forgiveness with Him (Romans 10:9) (Romans 10:13) (Luke 18:9-14). Believers need to be changed and know they are born again spiritually. Only then can they obey God’s commands and seek to follow Him in everything they do.

The focus after being saved by God’s grace is to love in everything one does. Love your enemies. But do not compromise on truth.
Stand up for God and speak the truth when needed.

Three core things in how we are to love is by:

#1. Spreading the gospel and the Word to all (Being genuinely concerned in seeing souls be saved

- praying that God will move in their life).

#2. Helping the poor, and the unfortunate. Jesus basically said if we help the poor, it is as if we are doing the same thing unto Him. Those who did not help the poor in this life are going to go away into everlasting punishment. Why? Because they are not loving others as God commands. They would rather let the poor rot in the streets as they take comfort in their little mansion or humble abode. But look at the fate of what happened to the rich man in the story of Lazarus that Jesus told us.

#3. We are to love the brethren as Jesus loved the brethren. Try washing the feet of the brethren today, and you will get replies like legalism and or other excuses. There are many other ways we can love the brethren (of course). But we are to love what brethren we can in whom God places in our path in any way we can according to God’s Word. Pray for them to be godly men and women. Love them (with material goods as needed), and tell them the truth of God’s Word. For Jesus said to Peter if you love me, feed my sheep.

So we are to love. Ask for God’s love to move through you when you do these things. Love in the way that involves living a holy life in glorifying God’s grace and not justifying sin. Many today believe they can sin and still be saved on some level. But we should hold out a light unto them and shine it despite the darkness. We should not lose hope in Christ and His mission no matter how much things appear to be hopeless. For our hope is in Jesus Christ and His Word. We walk and live by faith and not by sight. We keep the Lord’s commands because we love the Lord. For Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15).

Bible Highlighter · Jun 7, 2023

Berserk said:
4 COMMON PROGRESSIVE MISTAKES IN INTERPRETING THE GREAT COMMISSION:
(1) They often treat it as a call to serve the needy rather than as a call to proselytize and convert others.
It is a call to "make disciples" of Jesus--disciples who embrace His mission and teaching.

(2) They often duck its implication that unbelievers need to be taught Jesus' atoning death and resurrection.
Jesus succinctly states His mission in Matthew 20:28: "The Son of Man has come not to be served but to serve and to give His life a ransom for many."
The same atonement teaching of Jesus is found in Mark 10:45 and throughout John's Gospel and the rest of the New Testament.
Jesus rebuffs Peter's opposition to His mission of atonement: "Get behind me, Satan; ... for you are not on God's side but on man's side (Matthew 16;22)."

(3) They often duck its clear implication that unbelievers should be taught to worship Jesus.
"When they saw Him, they worshiped Him." The implicit mandate to teach new disciples to worship Him is implicit in His promise, "Remember. I am with you aways, even till the end of the age (28:20)" and His prior statement, "Where 2 or 3 are gathered in my name, there am I in their midst (18:20)."

(4) They often duck its implication that converts need an intimate personal relationship with Jesus.
If Jesus is present to be worshiped in the gathered community, then the relationship established by this worship is an intimate personal one. Jesus makes this clear by repeating this saying 3 times in our Gospels: on the Day of Judgment, He will tell some believers who thought they were serving him to get lost:
"Depart from Me; I never knew you (Matthew 7:23; 25:11-12; Luke 13:27)."
The phrase "I never knew you" clearly means "I never had an intimate personal relationship with you."

This essential personal relationship requires that we love Him even more than our families:
"Whoever loves (their family) more than me is not worthy of Me (Matthew 10:37)" and cannot be my disciple (Luke 14:26-27)."
Woke progressives for whom Jesus is little more than an organizing principle for ethical living and the pursuit of social justice can hardly be said to love Jesus more than their families. The kind of unrivaled love Jesus envisages is intimately personal and passionate.
Note that, for Jesus, failure to satisfy both teachings disqualifies one from the status as a true follower of Jesus.

The Risen Jesus poetically portrays this intimate personal relationship as feasting with Jesus, and Jesus feasting with us.
"Look, I am standing at the door, knocking. Whoever hears my voice and opens the door, I will come into them and feast with them and they with me (Revelation 3:20)."
Failure to establish such an intimate relationship makes believers "lukewarm" and warrants the risen Lord's rejection:
"Because you are lukewarm and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth (3:16)."

In John Jesus powerfully stresses the need for an intimate personal relationship with Him:
"I am the Good Shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father (John 10:14)."
"Those who love me will be loved by my Father, and I will love them AND REVEAL MYSELF TO THEM (John 14:21.)"
Similarly, Paul longs to know Christ personally, not just to know ABOUT Him: "I want to know Christ (Philippians 3:10)."

Progressive Christianity:

Progressive Christianity is more “Me Centered” and not “God centered.”
Liberal Christianity is not about getting the exact understanding of what God’s Word correctly says involving our life with God.
If you take the Bible too seriously in Progressive or Liberal Christianity, they will say you are worshiping a book.
Many in the Progressive camp of Christianity believe in Evolution and they hold to some or all of the leftist ideas (Like abortion, etcetera).
Progressive Christianity is about accepting this sinful Babylonian culture on some level.
Progressive Christianity is about having your best life now, and not suffering for the sake of the sake our Lord.
Many in the Liberal group of Christianity do not believe all of the stories in the Bible are true.
They are worldly, and love worldly things. They are not concerned about getting their heart right with God according to what the Bible says.
Progressive Christianity may even claim God talks to them in some way (visions, dreams, or even a still small voice). But most often, they will lead folks to go against our instructions in God’s Word involving our faith in God.
Progressrive Christianity can take different forms that are even very subtle and hidden within the umbrella of the evangelical movement. Some may be progressive when it comes to believing the doctrine of salvation and sin. Others may be progressive when it comes to the authority of God’s Word (Whereby they seek to come up with their own words to replace what God‘s Word actually says).

However, there are many doctrines and truths God wants us to believe in within His Word (That is a part of the faith).
There are also many things God desires us to take action on within His Word (that is a part of the faith).
We are to be doers of the Word and not hearers only deceiving our own selves like James says.
We must believe and obey all of what God tells us to do.
Faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17).

Akita Suggagaki · Jun 7, 2023

It is sad that "Conservative" Christians love to bash their progressive brothers and sisters so much.

But it is a strawman. unless I missed the definition of Progressive Christian?

Berserk · Jun 7, 2023

Akita Suggagaki said:
It is sad that "Conservative" Christians love to bash their progressive brothers and sisters so much.

But it is a strawman. unless I missed the definition of Progressive Christian?

All 4 points of my OP are directed against specific Progressive biblical claims on a Progressive website. This thread is merely a practice run to see if posters have anything helpful to say in this discussion. btw, I have served as a longtime pastor in a Progressive Protestant denomination.

Bible Highlighter · Jun 7, 2023

I am only speaking my knowledge in light of what I know God’s Word says and from having talked with various different Liberal Christians over the years. By no means is it personal or an attack as if I don’t like them. I don’t like their beliefs, but that does not mean I do not care for them as human beings. God commands me to love all people. There will be a day where we will all have to face God for the kind of faith we lived. Did we take God’s Word seriously? Did we strive to the best of our effort to follow everything His Word said? Or do we try and cut out the parts we do not like? My encouragement to the liberal Christian is to pray for change by God so as to accept those parts of the Bible that are difficult for you to accept.

A father who desired his son to be free of demon possession to Jesus said, ”Lord, … help thou mine unbelief.” (Mark 9:24).

OldAbramBrown · Sep 8, 2023

"Teach them everything I have instructed you" means about the gifts unvetoed and the fruits.

honey badger · Sep 8, 2023

Berserk said:
4 COMMON PROGRESSIVE MISTAKES IN INTERPRETING THE GREAT COMMISSION:
(1) They often treat it as a call to serve the needy rather than as a call to proselytize and convert others.
It is a call to "make disciples" of Jesus--disciples who embrace His mission and teaching.

(2) They often duck its implication that unbelievers need to be taught Jesus' atoning death and resurrection.
Jesus succinctly states His mission in Matthew 20:28: "The Son of Man has come not to be served but to serve and to give His life a ransom for many."
The same atonement teaching of Jesus is found in Mark 10:45 and throughout John's Gospel and the rest of the New Testament.
Jesus rebuffs Peter's opposition to His mission of atonement: "Get behind me, Satan; ... for you are not on God's side but on man's side (Matthew 16;22)."

(3) They often duck its clear implication that unbelievers should be taught to worship Jesus.
"When they saw Him, they worshiped Him." The implicit mandate to teach new disciples to worship Him is implicit in His promise, "Remember. I am with you aways, even till the end of the age (28:20)" and His prior statement, "Where 2 or 3 are gathered in my name, there am I in their midst (18:20)."

(4) They often duck its implication that converts need an intimate personal relationship with Jesus.
If Jesus is present to be worshiped in the gathered community, then the relationship established by this worship is an intimate personal one. Jesus makes this clear by repeating this saying 3 times in our Gospels: on the Day of Judgment, He will tell some believers who thought they were serving him to get lost:
"Depart from Me; I never knew you (Matthew 7:23; 25:11-12; Luke 13:27)."
The phrase "I never knew you" clearly means "I never had an intimate personal relationship with you."

This essential personal relationship requires that we love Him even more than our families:
"Whoever loves (their family) more than me is not worthy of Me (Matthew 10:37)" and cannot be my disciple (Luke 14:26-27)."
Woke progressives for whom Jesus is little more than an organizing principle for ethical living and the pursuit of social justice can hardly be said to love Jesus more than their families. The kind of unrivaled love Jesus envisages is intimately personal and passionate.
Note that, for Jesus, failure to satisfy both teachings disqualifies one from the status as a true follower of Jesus.

The Risen Jesus poetically portrays this intimate personal relationship as feasting with Jesus, and Jesus feasting with us.
"Look, I am standing at the door, knocking. Whoever hears my voice and opens the door, I will come into them and feast with them and they with me (Revelation 3:20)."
Failure to establish such an intimate relationship makes believers "lukewarm" and warrants the risen Lord's rejection:
"Because you are lukewarm and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth (3:16)."

In John Jesus powerfully stresses the need for an intimate personal relationship with Him:
"I am the Good Shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father (John 10:14)."
"Those who love me will be loved by my Father, and I will love them AND REVEAL MYSELF TO THEM (John 14:21.)"
Similarly, Paul longs to know Christ personally, not just to know ABOUT Him: "I want to know Christ (Philippians 3:10)."

proselytize .... thats one nasty word ....

The Liturgist · Sep 14, 2023

Berserk said:
4) They often duck its implication that converts need an intimate personal relationship with Jesus.
If Jesus is present to be worshiped in the gathered community, then the relationship established by this worship is an intimate personal one. Jesus makes this clear by repeating this saying 3 times in our Gospels: on the Day of Judgment, He will tell some believers who thought they were serving him to get lost:
"Depart from Me; I never knew you (Matthew 7:23; 25:11-12; Luke 13:27)."
The phrase "I never knew you" clearly means "I never had an intimate personal relationship with you."

Actually the idea of an intimate personal relationship with Jesus is no more than two centuries old, being, like Altar Calls and the Sinner’s Prayer, the product of evangelical Revivalism.

What converts actually need is to become Catechumens who are grafted on to the Body of Christ which is His Church (1 Corinthians 10) by being instructed in the faith like St. Philip the Ethiopian and then receiving the uncreated grace of the Holy Spirit through Baptism and the Eucharist (Matthew 28:19, 1 Corinthians 11-12), with Chrismation providing the seal of the Holy Spirit.

OldAbramBrown · Sep 14, 2023

The Liturgist said:
Actually the idea of an intimate personal relationship with Jesus is no more than two centuries old, being, like Altar Calls and the Sinner’s Prayer, the product of evangelical Revivalism.

What converts actually need is to become Catechumens who are grafted on to the Body of Christ which is His Church (1 Corinthians 10) by being instructed in the faith like St. Philip the Ethiopian and then receiving the uncreated grace of the Holy Spirit through Baptism and the Eucharist (Matthew 28:19, 1 Corinthians 11-12), with Chrismation providing the seal of the Holy Spirit.

Those things were always intended to lead to an intimate personal relationship of course. What my intimate personal relationships look like are not for any meddlers to approve or describe.

What's relatively new as you point out is to omit all (or some) of the means in order to gain manipulative power. Have you read Guaranteed Pure by Tim Gloege and The Gospel of J Edgar Hoover by Lerone Martin (which are very relevant to the UK also) (they trace the rise of the "christian industrial complex")?

RDKirk · Sep 14, 2023

Berserk said:
(3) They often duck its clear implication that unbelievers should be taught to worship Jesus.
"When they saw Him, they worshiped Him." The implicit mandate to teach new disciples to worship Him is implicit in His promise, "Remember. I am with you aways, even till the end of the age (28:20)" and His prior statement, "Where 2 or 3 are gathered in my name, there am I in their midst (18:20)."

You realize, don't you, that there is a difference between an "unbeliever" and a "new disciple," right?

You can't teach an unbeliever to worship Jesus.

RDKirk · Sep 14, 2023

honey badger said:
proselytize .... thats one nasty word ....

It's a fine word. "Indoctrinate" is another fine word.

Akita Suggagaki · Sep 14, 2023

RDKirk said:
It's a fine word. "Indoctrinate" is another fine word.

We have to remember some of the history of Christian imperialism that provides context for today.

"In some regions, almost all of a colony's population was forcibly turned away from its traditional belief systems and forcibly turned towards the Christian faith, which colonizers used as a justification for their extermination of adherents of other faiths, their enslavement of natives, and their exploitation of lands and seas."

Christianity and colonialism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Things can get pretty grim when religion is used as a political tool.

At this stage of the game, of human history. We see people hungering for truth but not finding it. We see people without a firm foundation in values and virtues. So many people are simply lost. the Great Commission is more important now than ever.

How then do we share the Good news? I think it has to start with sharing joy, peace and love rather than dogma.

RDKirk · Sep 14, 2023

Akita Suggagaki said:
We have to remember some of the history of Christian imperialism that provides context for today.

"In some regions, almost all of a colony's population was forcibly turned away from its traditional belief systems and forcibly turned towards the Christian faith, which colonizers used as a justification for their extermination of adherents of other faiths, their enslavement of natives, and their exploitation of lands and seas."

Christianity and colonialism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Things can get pretty grim when religion is used as a political tool.

At this stage of the game, of human history. We see people hungering for truth but not finding it. We see people without a firm foundation in values and virtues. So many people are simply lost. the Great Commission is more important now than ever.

How then do we share the Good news? I think it has to start with sharing joy, peace and love rather than dogma.

Dogma is also a perfectly good word, along with indoctrination and proselytization. Just because certain modern rhetoricians have twisted them to negative meanings doesn't make them bad words.

Berserk · Sep 14, 2023

By teaching the contuing presence of Jesus in the Church, the Great Commission does in fact teach an initimate personal relationship with Jesus.
(1) Paul uses "the Holy Spirit" and "the Spirit of Christ" interchangeably and reception of the Holy Spirit is an EXPERIENCE of divine power, not just an article of faith. As an experience of divine power, it is also an intimate experience of God.
(2) Jesus' repeated statement "Depart from me; I never knew you" implies a desirable intimate personal relationship with Christ. The use of "know" here plays off the use of "know" as a term for intimate sexual union in a metaphorical way.
(3) Revelation 3:20 is addressed to a church, yes, but also to its individual members: "See, I stand at the door, knocking. If any one will hear my voice and open the door, I will come into him and dine with him and him with me." The image here of feasting with Jesus after inviting Him into your heart is about as intimate as you can get. Christianity based on obedience and faith-based service is usually illusory and inept without an intimate relationship with Jesus. The motivation and power of an intimate connection with Jesus is essential.

The Liturgist · Sep 14, 2023

OldAbramBrown said:
Those things were always intended to lead to an intimate personal relationship of course. What my intimate personal relationships look like are not for any meddlers to approve or describe.

What's relatively new as you point out is to omit all (or some) of the means in order to gain manipulative power. Have you read Guaranteed Pure by Tim Gloege and The Gospel of J Edgar Hoover by Lerone Martin (which are very relevant to the UK also) (they trace the rise of the "christian industrial complex")?

No but the former sounds interesting.

Regarding the latter, J Edgar Hoover came from a Quaker background and I controversially feel he is, like President Nixon, who was also a Quaker, by the way, unfairly criticized.

Akita Suggagaki · Sep 14, 2023

RDKirk said:
Dogma is also a perfectly good word, along with indoctrination and proselytization. Just because certain modern rhetoricians have twisted them to negative meanings doesn't make them bad words.

I am more concerned with pain inflicted in the past in the name of religion than I am with modern "rhetoricians".

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