30,000 denominations Argument

Crazy Liz · Nov 18, 2004

Diane_Windsor said:
Why they are so many separate Baptist denoms does not concern me.

You do realize, though, that it does concern some people, and that it is the reason for the whole 30,000 (or 8,000) denominations argument, don't you?

Diane_Windsor · Nov 18, 2004

Crazy Liz said:
You do realize, though, that it does concern some people, and that it is the reason for the whole 30,000 (or 8,000) denominations argument, don't you?

Of course, but when all the chips are down they are still Baptists, Presbys, Catholics, Lutherans, etc.

diane

ZiSunka · Nov 18, 2004

List of Rites of the Catholic Church

The Roman Tradition
1. the Latin Rite (most Catholics belong to this rite)
2. the Ambrosian Rite
3. the Mozarabic Rite
4. the Slavonic Rite
5. the Gallican Rite
The Antiochene Tradition
1. The Maronite Rite
2. The West Syrian Rite
3. The Malankara Rite
The Chaldean Tradition
1. The Chaldean Rite
2. The Malabar Rite
The Armenian Tradition
1. The Armenian Rite
The Alexandrian Tradition
1. The Coptic Rite
2. The Ethiopic Rite
The Byzantine Tradition
1. The Melkite Rite
2. The Ukrainian Rite
3. The Russian Rite
4. The Bulgarian Rite
5. The Greek Rite
6. The Georgian Rite
7. The Italo-Albanian Rite
8. The Romanian Rite
9. The Serbian Rite

Plus, each of these rites have subdivisions within them. If someone tells you that protestants are clearly not of God because of all the divisions and that catholicism is of God because there is only one, show them this list and ask them to explain what they mean when they say catholics are all one.

My mother grew up Byzantine Russian rite, but raised us Byzantine Greek rite. Their belief and doctrines and practices are quite different, just like protestants are.

SumTinWong · Nov 18, 2004

I hadn't heard that before. Thanks for that lambslove.

Crazy Liz · Nov 18, 2004

LL, I think their practices are quite different, but their doctrines do not separate them. I look at splits because of practice (or geography) quite differently from splits because of doctrine.

There is a difference between diversity and division. Some protestant denominations are separate from each other because of diversity in practice or geographical separation, but still regard each other as brothers and sisters who can freely worship and commune together, as do all of these Catholic rites. Too many protestant denominations, though, have split because of some doctrinal disagreement that one or both sides felt made it impossible to view the other side in this way.

Diversity is good. Division is not.

GreenEyedLady · Nov 18, 2004

lambslove said:
List of Rites of the Catholic Church

The Roman Tradition

the Latin Rite (most Catholics belong to this rite)

the Ambrosian Rite

the Mozarabic Rite

the Slavonic Rite

the Gallican Rite

The Antiochene Tradition

The Maronite Rite

The West Syrian Rite

The Malankara Rite

The Chaldean Tradition

The Chaldean Rite

The Malabar Rite

The Armenian Tradition

The Armenian Rite

The Alexandrian Tradition

The Coptic Rite

The Ethiopic Rite

The Byzantine Tradition

The Melkite Rite

The Ukrainian Rite

The Russian Rite

The Bulgarian Rite

The Greek Rite

The Georgian Rite

The Italo-Albanian Rite

The Romanian Rite

The Serbian Rite

Wow, this is awesome. Where did you get this?
GEL

Crazy Liz · Nov 18, 2004

Fascinating, but these rites have more to do with what color robes to wear on what day or whether the offering should be taken before or after the sermon than about any real division.

Diane_Windsor · Nov 18, 2004

Crazy Liz said:
Fascinating, but these rites have more to do with what color robes to wear on what day or whether the offering should be taken before or after the sermon than about any real division.

Source?

Thanks.

FreeinChrist · Nov 18, 2004

Crazy Liz said:
Do you know why Primitive Baptists, Southern Baptists, American Baptists, etc. are separate denominations?

They are are different conferences of Baptists. The conferences, like the SBC formed for the purpose of pooling rsources to send out missionaries. Between the conferences, there are differenct things emphasized. American Baptists focus more on home missions. SBC ties to do both.
Basic beliefs are the same though. and as Baptists see each church as autonomous, I don't see the that there is any issue. God uses ALL Christians.

I really think the number of denominations seem to concern certain groups, like the Catholic church, however, I just see it as that many more who are active in spreding the gospel. I see the church as being made up of believers from all denoms.

racer · Nov 18, 2004

The Lord's Envoy said:
very fascinating. I'd be interested in reading a RC rebuttal to it if there is one.

There is a rebuttal. Visit www.NTRMin.org. The source cited in the referenced article is the same source that Catholics are using when they make the 30,000 Protestant Denomination claims. However, Catholics are making this claim less and less as they become more acquainted with the source they've been giving credence to.

Monica02 · Nov 18, 2004

Crazy Liz said:
Fascinating, but these rites have more to do with what color robes to wear on what day or whether the offering should be taken before or after the sermon than about any real division.

Yep- different liturgies. Also, I think the Eastern rites confirm babies. All are in full communion with the Vatican. The Catechism of the Catholic Church applies to all rites. All Catholics may attend all of the rite's services and still fulfill their Sunday obligation.

If anyone is interested in more information get on the Q/A forum at the EWTN website. I think they have a forum on this. Sorry-I am not computer smart enough to link. Also the Catholic Encyclopedia might have info.

Thanks to everyone who tried to answer my questions.

SumTinWong · Nov 18, 2004

here isanother source that might help
http://www.catholic.com

Diane_Windsor · Nov 18, 2004

racer,

I don't think that the second article had an RC rebuttel. Did I miss it?

Diane

SumTinWong · Nov 18, 2004

Here Diane:
http://www.ntrmin.org/30000denominationsrevisited.htm

Diane_Windsor · Nov 18, 2004

Uncle Bud said:
Here Diane:
http://www.ntrmin.org/30000denominationsrevisited.htm

That is the article that I am talking about. This article linked above doesn't have a RC rebuttal correct?

diane

Crazy Liz · Nov 18, 2004

Diane_Windsor said:
Source?

Thanks.

What I said was a rather loose analogy, but the differences seem to be of a similar degree of significance. See http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13064b.htm.

Edit: Here are two more links that might help:
1) A lot like the Catholic Encyclopedia article, but more concise.
http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/catholic_rites_and_churches.htm
2) The official Vatican statement on the Eastern rites
http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19641121_orientalium-ecclesiarum_en.html

Thanks to the friends who found these for me.

Crazy Liz · Nov 18, 2004

Monica02 said:
Yep- different liturgies. Also, I think the Eastern rites confirm babies.

And also use raised bread for the Eucharist and have married priests, right?

Crazy Liz · Nov 18, 2004

FreeinChrist said:
They are are different conferences of Baptists. The conferences, like the SBC formed for the purpose of pooling rsources to send out missionaries. Between the conferences, there are differenct things emphasized. American Baptists focus more on home missions. SBC ties to do both.
Basic beliefs are the same though. and as Baptists see each church as autonomous, I don't see the that there is any issue. God uses ALL Christians.

I really think the number of denominations seem to concern certain groups, like the Catholic church, however, I just see it as that many more who are active in spreding the gospel. I see the church as being made up of believers from all denoms.

I don't want to foment division. Actually, I think today this is becoming more and more true, but we have to admit that historically, denominational splits among protestants have usually happened because of a difference in belief one group was so important that they could no longer fellowship with anyone who disagreed. I think the point of the 30,000/8,000 denominations argument is that protestants tend to have difficulty deciding which issues are important enough to break fellowship, and tend to err on the side of excessive schism.

As far as I can see, this is a fact, and we should acknowledge and confess it, rather than quibble about the numbers used to illustrate the argument.

Monica02 · Nov 18, 2004

Crazy Liz said:
And also use raised bread for the Eucharist and have married priests, right?

Yes on the bread. Clarification on the married priests. I am no expert, so you migh want to double check somewhere. They will ordain married men, however a man may not get married once he is ordained. I know married priests cannot become bishops in the Orthodox Church so I am assuming that Eastern rite Catholic priests cannot either. A bit of trivia for you. I think an Armenian rite bishop was almost elected pope in the 50's or 60's.

Carrye · Nov 18, 2004

Monica02 said:
Yes on the bread. Clarification on the married priests. I am no expert, so you migh want to double check somewhere. They will ordain married men, however a man may not get married once he is ordained. I know married priests cannot become bishops in the Orthodox Church so I am assuming that Eastern rite Catholic priests cannot either.

Eastern rite priests can be married ... sometimes, though it depends on the rite and the location.

If an unmarried man is ordained, he can never marry. These will be the priests who can also become bishop. As Monica said, no married priests are ordained bishops.

A friend of mine is a priest in one of these Eastern rites, and priests in his rite in the United States hold to the decision of the USCCB, that priests are to be celibate. However, priests in his rite in another country (Iraq) follow the protocol outlined above.

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