3 People Groups Going into the Lake of Fire

aiki said:

Are you suggesting the Church does not have "tares" in it? It seems quite evident to me that it has always had false converts and outright non-believers in it ranks. Jesus mentioned them, as did the apostles. (Matthew 13:24-30; Matthew 7:21-23; Acts 20:29-30; 2 Peter 2, Hebrews 6:4-6, etc.) So, the Epistles were written to the Early Church, yes, but the Early Church was occupied - as the modern church is today - by "tares" as well as genuine believers. At times, what we read in Scripture addresses this reality.

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Are you saying that all the many warnings against about falling into sin and falling away throughout the NT Scriptures were written to the tares in the Church, and not all the true Christians in the Church? If so, why do many such Epistles refer to "we" "us" ??? Why are these warnings addressed to Christians?

Ronald said:

There are misinterpretations of the Bible that we are witnessing on this thread.
Here are truths that apparently some of you do not understand:
Christ died for our sins - all of them, past, present and future. Consider if He did not and only for past sins, we would have to ask numerous times a day, everyday to forgive each and every unloving action or thought. This is putting Him back on the cross for every passing fleshly selfish act.
God operates outside our time domain, in eternity. He sees all, therefore forgives all. We still sin and we still confess our sins to Him and each other because we STILL HAVE SIN THAT DWELLS IN THE MEMBERS OF OUR FLESH. BUT NEWSFLASH: OUR SPIRITS ARE PURELY CLEANSED FOR ALL TIME. Which means at any given moment, if you were caught off guard and were killed instantly before you had a chance to confess your last sin, your salvation is secure, you are saved_ because salvation/faith is a GIFT. It can't be earned and by the way, unbeknownst to many, it cannot be lost.
"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast," Eph. 2:8, 9
Not or yourselves! That means before we are saved AND after we are saved. Because God gives a gift, His gift is sealed, secure ... otherwise our faith would be threatened, weakened, by the idea that we could lose it and we could never know for sure.

"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." John 1:12
"There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death." Rom.8:1, 2
No condemnation means not just for prior sins, BUT FOR ALL SINS. WE ARE FREE FROM THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH - WE CANNOT FALL AWAY AND THEN DIE, WE ARE FREE OF THAT HAPPENING!
FREE MEANS FREE. WE DON'T KEEP PUTTING CHRIST BACK ON THE CROSS FOR EVERY SINGLE SIN AFTER WE ARE TRANSFORMED INTO A NEW CREATURE, BORN AGAIN. Of course we have some ignorant people who speak against "these born again Christians", who have no understanding of what that means. They are not secure, in fear and that leads to them pointing fingers at others in judgment.

"And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you,, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you."
This is security, it is a gift, a promise that we can depend on. It's a done deal!

"And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever - the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you." John 14:16, 17
God does things with perfection and purpose. He does not draw His sheep, cleanse them, give them a gift of salvation/eternal life, and dwells in them for a trial period to see if any sins turn up that would cause Him to evacuate. HE KNOWS THE BEGINNING FROM THE END. HE IS FAITHFUL!

"You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law ..." Gal. 3:1-3, 13
Shall I explain this passage? No, if you don't get it, you don't get it.

"For we know that if our earthly house of our tabernacle be dissolved, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal, in the heavens." 2 Cor. 5:1
We know this. It is not some shallow promise that maybe we'll make it, it is certain, WE KNOW.
"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the LORD." 2 Cor. 5:8
"But in keeping with His promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness." 2 Peter 3:13
"Jesus answered and said to him, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.'" John 3:3


Don't know about the rest of you, but I'm saved, my salvation is secure, the Spirit of God dwells in me. Christ has redeemed - not just for past sins, for all time! And no one, no power, can snatch me out of the Father's hand.
This is not boasting, it is a fact for those who are born again. OSAS

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You Wrote as follows:
<<
"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." John 1:12
"There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death." Rom.8:1, 2
No condemnation means not just for prior sins, BUT FOR ALL SINS. WE ARE FREE FROM THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH - WE CANNOT FALL AWAY AND THEN DIE, WE ARE FREE OF THAT HAPPENING!
FREE MEANS FREE.
>>

SETST RE:
You are quoting parts of Passages that mention "faith" and "free," but neglect the rest of it that shows what faith is, and what you are free from.

What are you free from?

John 8
34 Jesus answered them, “Most certainly I tell you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. 35 A slave doesn’t live in the house forever. A son remains forever. 36 If therefore the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

Romans 6:22 But now, being made free from sin, and having become servants of God, you have your fruit of sanctification, and the result is eternal life.

Free from what? Free from slavery to sin

Romans 8:1-2 (that you quoted above) states:
"who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit."

If we are walking according to the Spirit that you received by faith then you are free from the law of sin and death:

Romans 8 (WEB) 12 So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if you live after the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are children of God.

Galatians 5 (WEB) Bolding Mine… 24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let’s also walk by the Spirit. 26 Let’s not become conceited, provoking one another, and envying one another.

Galatians 5 (NIV) 16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh… 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

Galatians 6 (WEB) 7 Don’t be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 Let us not be weary in doing good, for we will reap in due season, if we don’t give up.

Therefore, if you are in Christ, His Spirit dwelling you, then you are responsible to live by that Spirit in you by faith to be free from sin. Only these receive Eternal Life.

"Faith" that God accepts to be saved is what?

What is faith according to how Scripture defines it?

***For instance, does faith include repentance from your life ruled by sin? Yes

Luke 5
32 I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”

Acts 20 Bolding mine 20 I didn’t shrink from declaring to you anything that was profitable, teaching you publicly and from house to house, 21 testifying both to Jews and to Greeks repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus.

2 Peter 3 Bolding mine…
9 The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some count slowness; but is patient with us, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Acts 2 Bolding mine… 38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

***Does faith include obedience to all Christ commanded to be saved? Yes

Hebrews 5:8-10 (NIV)
8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him

Romans 16:25-27
25 Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, 26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith— 27 to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.

Romans 6
18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

Romans 6
22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.

***Does faith require us to listen to and follow Christ to be eternally saved? Yes

John 10
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give eternal life to them. They will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Matthew 10:38
38 He who doesn’t take his cross and follow after me, isn’t worthy of me.

***Does faith require us to become disciples of Jesus to be saved? Yes

Matthew 28:19-20 (THE GREAT COMMISSION)
19 Go, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to obey all things that I commanded you.

Mark 8
34 He called the multitude to himself with his disciples, and said to them, “Whoever wants to come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 35 For whoever wants to save his life will lose it; and whoever will lose his life for my sake and the sake of the Good News will save it. 36 For what does it profit a man, to gain the whole world, and forfeit his life?

***So will a Bible Faith in Jesus that saves mean you are now denying yourself, taking up your cross daily and following Him to be saved? YES!

John 14
21 One who has my commandments, and keeps them, that person is one who loves me. One who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him, and will reveal myself to him.”

***Who then claims to be a Christian but is actually a liar?

1 John 2
4 One who says, “I know him,” and doesn’t keep his commandments, is a liar, and the truth isn’t in him. 5 But whoever keeps his word, God’s love has most certainly been perfected in him. This is how we know that we are in him: 6 he who says he remains in him ought himself also to walk just like he walked.

Read Romans 6, and let me know what you think.

BCsenior said:

(1) -- the cowardly
This group represents at least 3 sub-groups:

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First, the book of Revelation is a book of prophesies. It's written in such a format, and intention. We don't and can't expect to have a full understanding of what is said if it means to be an occurrence in the future.
Second, IMO the approach in reading the book is not using it to deny what have been said in other parts of the Bible. Thus, the listing doesn't simply apply to the belief that all sins can be forgiven except for the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Revelation is not for contradicting what have been said in other parts of the Bible, due to the fact that prophetic writings can hardly be fully understood to make such a judgment.

That said. I believe what being said is about a two-staged final judgment. What Jesus has won is actually a subjective judgment. Without Jesus there's only one judgment which is objective, it's a judgment of Law which is applicable to both angels and humans alike. Not a single human can pass such a judgment of Law.

With Jesus then, the first stage of judgment is a subjective judgment by God/Jesus Himself, in accordance to what is said in a covenant. Objective judgment is about how one's behavior is witnessed and thus prosecuted in accordance to Law. A subjective judgment on the other hand requires a Judge capable of judging hearts, not just by behavior (i.e., only God/Jesus can do so as only God knows how to judge fairly but subjectively).

Once a human is rejected by Jesus, what followed will be the original objective judgment. It means all humans in this stage will end up with the second death. They include those "cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars", it's just a list of examples of those falling in front of God's Law as a result of the stage-two judgment.

Revelation 21:7-8 (NIV2011)
Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children.
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.

Verse 7 is about the result of the stage-one judgment. Verse 8 is about the result of the stage-two judgment.

Moreover, "cowardly" to me means more about betrayal due to self-weaknesses, that is, one cannot stand firm on faith.

BCsenior said:

Where did you learn your false doctrine
"grace-only" from?
From relatives?
From church?
From books, etc.?
From Satan?
Most probably from a combo of the above.
Thanks.

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You need to be baptized by the Holy Spirit, because all scripture is spiritually discerned and frankly you discernment in interpreting scripture is lacking. And your derogatory, mean spirited implication that I learned my theology from Satan is AGAINST FORUM RULES AND POOR Christian character.
Where did I get my theology? Did I not show you scriptures? You choose not to recognize any other view than your own. Others have clearly pointed it out to you and you remain stubbornly unteachable.
Hostility takes over when you get put up against the wall; you twist, distort, when you can't find a way out, so you insult the person. That's just what the Liberals do when they can't argue a point, they attack the person.
"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast." Eph. 2:8, 9

Which part don't you get? It's very clear. It's one of the most important and popular scriptures. Come on, take it slow. Do a word study _ one at a time _ prayer _ breath _ remove all hostility _ but do it in a peaceful open setting. But please do ask for the Holy Spirit. It is wonderful to have those elders, your pastor, lay hands on you and prayer that you receive the Holy Spirit - it's wonderful.

aiki said:

Well, there's nothing I can do about your reading comprehension, but I did not write "cowardly means lack of faith" as you said I had. I only pointed out that the word "deilos", translated "cowardly," has other meanings that the OP ignored.

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You said coward "implied" faithless, (lack of faith) and in context you said just what I said you said.

I have your reaction to the question now, and that's all I ever expected. The following is exactly what you posted, but after your reaction I can see it would be a waste of time to argue this, so I don't post it for reason of argument, but so others can decide for themselves and if they know what to look for, see exactly how OSAS is defended .

aiki said:

How do you know what sorts of cowards are in view in the passage from Revelations 21:8? In the Greek, the word you render "cowardly" (deilos) is actually a term broader in its meaning, including "fearful" or "timid" and, by implication, "faithless."

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aiki said:

??? Not following you here...You'll have to explain your thinking a bit.

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The question was clear, and you need not answer. Over the years, on this subject, I've learned not to expect answers to certain questions, just a reaction, and I already have yours.

Thanks for the productive conversation.

Ronald said:

You need to be baptized by the Holy Spirit, because all scripture is spiritually discerned and frankly you discernment in interpreting scripture is lacking.

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Hi Ronald,

I quote you as follows:
<<
"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast." Eph. 2:8, 9

Which part don't you get?
>>

Please provide a Scripture that teaches that faith unto salvation is a gift of God or is a work?

Ephesians 2:8-9 is not as clear as you might think - so does not - by itself - provide enough evidence to prove your point.

Ephesians 2 (WEB) Bolding mine… 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, that no one would boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared before that we would walk in them.

This particular Ephesians Scripture flatly declares that saving grace is “through faith (Eph 2:8).”

The portion of these verses that is a stumbling point is:

“ – and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, that no one would boast.” (Eph 2:5)

Many are confused about what “this” is referring to that is the “gift of God, and not of works.”

Is “this” referring back to the “for it is by grace you have been saved”?

Or is “this” referring to ‘grace’ and “through faith”?

Or is “this” referring only to “through faith”?

Grammar indicates that:

“For it is by grace you have been saved” is the subject

“through faith” is the modifier of the subject, in that; “faith” is the agent by which ‘God’s grace onto salvation’ (subject) is received. “through” is the verb.

Since “by grace are you saved“ is the subject of the paragraph, then in the 2nd sentence (verse 9) “this” would seem to be referring back to the subject (“by grace are you saved“), and not the modifier of the subject (“through faith”) in the previous sentence. Calvinists argue that the whole previous sentence is referred to in “this.”

To undeniably prove or disprove if verse 9 is referring specifically to the “by grace are you saved” (the subject in verse 8) we have to search other Scriptures to see if any Scriptures ever teach that:

• faith is a product of God’s saving grace.
• faith onto salvation is ever taught to be a gift of God.
• faith onto salvation is ever taught to be a work.

Is faith onto salvation an act of God’s grace?

Scripturally, God’s saving grace and mercy are received only by faith just as we read from Scripture itself. Clear examples are: Ephesians 2:8; Romans 1:16-17; Romans 5:1-2. See also: Hebrews 11; John 3:14-18; 1 Peter 1:4-9.

Is faith unto salvation a gift?

No Scripture states or teaches that faith onto salvation is a gift of God. Some ‘scholars’ object, citing “1 Corinthians 12:9” and “Romans 12:3-8.” However, these Scriptures are discussing the gifts of the Spirit and the faith to carry out specific gifts - to those already saved.

Scripture repeatedly teaches that “Gift” refers to God’s saving grace – God graciously accrediting righteousness to those of faith. This “Gift” of grace is righteousness and salvation thereof, and is only receive by faith.

Romans 4:4-5 (NIV) Bolding mine… 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Romans 4:4-5 (just quoted) teaches that we receive God’s Gift (being accredited righteousness) by Faith. See also: Romans 5:17. Faith itself is not the gift.

The “Gift of God” is God graciously imputing His righteousness to those who believe in Jesus.

Romans 3:22-24
22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Let’s review another Scripture. . .

Romans 6 (WEB) Bolding mine… 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The “gift of God” refers to “eternal life.” We only receive God’s gracious gift of eternal life though faith in Christ Jesus according to every Scripture in the Bible, in context. Examples were given.

Remember that grace is only received by faith and the Spiritual regeneration of the Spirit is only received by faith.

Revelation 22:17
17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” He who hears, let him say, “Come!” He who is thirsty, let him come. He who desires, let him take the water of life freely.

Regeneration of the indwelling Spirit only by faith...

John 7:37-39 (WEB) Bolding mine… 37 Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.”
39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus wasn’t yet glorified.

Acts 5 (WEB) 32 We are His witnesses of these things; and so also is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.

Galatians 3:2 (NIV) Bolding mine… 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?

Ephesians 1 (WEB) 13 in whom you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation—in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a pledge of our inheritance, to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of his glory.

Acts 2 (WEB) 38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Regeneration only by the Indwelling Spirit

The Spirit of Christ living IN us regenerates us unto eternal life after we believe according to the above Scriptures.

Romans 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if any man doesn’t have the Spirit of Christ, he is not his.
10 If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

Only by faith are we born of God:

John 1 (NIV) Bolding mine… 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God — 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Galatians 3 (WEB) 26 For you are all children of God, through faith in Christ Jesus.

Regeneration (New Creation) only by faith

2 Corinthians 5 (WEB) Bolding mine… 17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old things have passed away. Behold, all things have become new.

The “New Creation” only comes by being ‘IN Christ.’
We are IN Christ when His Spirit indwells us (Eph 1:13-14).

Considering the evidence, we must conclude that the second sentence of Ephesians 2:8-9 “this is not of yourselves but is the gift of God – not of works” must be referring back to the subject “By grace are you saved,” which is the gift of God, not of works. This is what Scripture actually teaches in context.

Is Faith a Work?
Let’s go a step further, and show conclusively whether faithonto salvation is ever taught to be a “work” in Scripture.

Romans 3:27-28 (WEB) Bolding mine… 27 Where then is the boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 We maintain therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

Romans 4:4-5 (NIV) Bolding mine… 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Romans 9:30-33 (WEB) Bolding mine… 30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who didn’t follow after righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith; 31 but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, didn’t arrive at the law of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they didn’t seek it by faith, but as it were by works of the law. They stumbled over the stumbling stone; 33 even as it is written,
“Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and a rock of offense; and no one who believes in him will be disappointed.”

Galatians 2:15-16 (WEB) Bolding mine… 15 We, being Jews by nature, and not Gentile sinners, 16 yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law, because no flesh will be justified by the works of the law.

Clearly then, if we review the context of Scripture, faith is contrasted to, or the opposite of, works according to the inspired Word of God.

Scripture itself teaches us, then, that:
faith is not by God’s grace
faith is not God’s gift
faith is not a work

Rather, we gain access to the gift of saving grace (not by works) through faith in Christ Jesus - Romans 5:1-2.

So in Ephesians 2:9 we read as follows:

• “this is not of yourselves,
• it is the gift of God
• - not of works lest any man should boast”

It’s all referring back to the subject in Ephesians 2:8, which is:

“By grace are you have been saved” (the gift and work of God).

Why? . . . because

Faith is not by grace.
Faith is not a gift
Faith is not a work.

Rather, Scripture only refers to:

Salvation that is by God’s Grace.
Salvation that is the Gift of God
Salvation that is the work of God

God Gracious Gift of Salvation – the regenerative work of God –
*is receive by Faith (Romans 5:1-3)
*is kept by the power of God through faith (1 Peter 1:4-5)
*The end result of your faith is your salvation (1 Peter 1:9)

What about Ephesians 2:10?

Ephesians 2:10 (WEB) states: 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared before that we would walk in them.

The Christian is “created in Christ” by the Spirit we receive by faith as we saw earlier by Scripture.

The “good works” God prepared for us to do is only accomplished when, by faith, we obey that same Spirit we received by faith.

Romans 8:12-13
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Galatians 5:24-25 (WEB)
24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let’s also walk by the Spirit.

Galatians 6:8 (WEB) 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

Galatians 5 (WEB)
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you won’t fulfill the lust of the flesh.

Therefore, regeneration is God’s work in those who, by faith, obey His Spirit that indwells the believer. This is regeneration – only by faith.

To do the good works that God created us for, we must, by faith, be in Christ, which is to be obedient to His Spirit who lives in us by faith to be saved. We saw the Scriptures. And that is why we must work out our salvation with fear and trembling (living by God’s Spirit in us). By so doing, God is working out His will in our lives.

Philippians 2 (WEB)
12 So then, my beloved, even as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God who works in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure.

Paul is not teaching a works salvation here; but rather, Paul is establishing that a Bible faith in Christ means we are dead to the old master of the sinful nature, and are now disciples of Christ, living by His Spirit of which Baptism represents: SEE Romans 6

(Matthew 28:19). We are dead to the old life and alive in Christ.

In Summary:

To be created in Christ is salvation, which is God’s regenerative work from sin and death – only in those who faithfully walk by God’s Spirit whom they receive by faith.

As we saw by Scripture, God’s gift of saving grace is only accessed by faith. This begins the New Life in the Spirit whom we receive by faith. The end result of your faith is your salvation.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast." Eph. 2:8, 9


Oh my...
>"this" or "that" in various translations represents our salvation.
Salvation is a gift. Therefore, faith itself is a gift, it has to be, it is part of salvation, part of God's grace. God opens your eyes, lifts the veil so you can see. He enables us to have faith in varying degrees.

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.” Gal. 5:22, 23

>Faith here, is the part of the list of the fruit of the Spirit, that grows in the Christian. The Spirit is given to us, without which you could muster faith unto salvation. It is the same for everything else on the list. Jesus says, My peace I give to you, not the peace that the world gives.

“For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,” 1 Cor. 12:8, 9
>Of the spiritual gifts, faith is given. So it varies with the individual, one has more wisdom, maybe less faith; one is given the gift of healing.
"As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions." Rom. 14:1 Oops!

”For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith. For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith; if service, in his serving; or he who teaches, in his teaching; or he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.” Rom. 12:3-8

Grace is unmerited favor - a gift.
Spiritual Faith is a gift - given in varying proportions according to His purpose.
Physical Life, food, everything on the planet with all the animals, plants, trees, God's creation is a gift. My dog Lulu is a gift - a wonderful creature, loyal, happy to see me always. But her faith had to grow, through trust in me feeding her, loving her. But that faith can fail, it is conditional, if I stop feeding her or don't come home or die.
People have faith in things and other people based on conditions, facts or history, whatever. We have faith that the sun will rise, because it has before on schedule. A child has faith in his parents to care for him because they care for him. Other children don't. We trust each other, depend on each other, but human faith is fragile, conditional and it can fail. The kind of faith God gives is spiritual, not generated by ourselves
Spiritual Life is a gift.
Of the Spiritual gifts, faith is one.
EVERYTHING THAT IS GOOD COMES FROM GOD AND THEREFORE A GIFT.
YOU CANNOT DO ANYTHING WITHOUT HIM, OR IN OTHER WORDS, YOU CAN DO NOTHING GOOD WITHOUT HIM.

God does ALL good works through us. He gets the credit.
"for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." Phil. 2:13
"I can do all things through Him who strengthens me." Phil. 4:13

BCsenior said:

Yes, but he is plainly warning everyone
in the Roman church that habitual sinning
without repentance leads to eternal death.

Click to expand...

Oh? I don't recall Paul saying anything about "habitual sinning" in Romans 6. And where does he say anything about repentance in the chapter, exactly? No where.

BCsenior said:

Obviously, this applies to any BAC
who chooses to go down that road.
Which thou sayest is impossible!

Click to expand...

But you assume that it is possible for a genuine believer to "go down that road" and then read Scripture in such a way as to confirm your assumption! This is called "begging the question." It's a logical fallacy also known as arguing in a circle.

BCsenior said:

From the context of the NT ...
I'm saying you have no eyes and ears!

Click to expand...

Well, you're free to say whatever you like. Your merely saying so, though, doesn't make it so.

setst777 said:

Are you saying that all the many warnings against about falling into sin and falling away throughout the NT Scriptures were written to the tares in the Church, and not all the true Christians in the Church? If so, why do many such Epistles refer to "we" "us" ??? Why are these warnings addressed to Christians?

Click to expand...

Context determines what sort of "falling away" is in view. I have yet to see an instance in Scripture where a "falling away" is clearly from a genuinely saved condition. Most SAL proponents go to Hebrews 6:4-6 as an example, but it is fairly easy to argue that a saved person is not actually described in the passage. Some also resort to Galatians 5:4. But this, too, does not have anything to do with the loss of salvation.

In any case, it doesn't follow that if a letter is written to Christians it must therefore contain matters that pertain only to them. The "we" and "us" refer to those within the Church - but not necessarily as genuine members of it. Many believe they are truly of the faith, actual members of the Body of Christ, but will find a terrible surprise awaiting them at the Final Judgment. (see Matthew 7:21-23) Why couldn't Paul have been writing to these "believers" in his various letters to the churches? I think it's evident in many of his warnings that he was.

Kenny'sID said:

You said coward "implied" faithless, (lack of faith) and in context you said just what I said you said.

Click to expand...

What I said is exactly what I wrote. No where did I write, "coward 'implied' faithless." I wrote that the Greek word "deilos" implied "faithless." Again, read more carefully what I wrote:

"In the Greek, the word you render "cowardly" (deilos) is actually a term broader in its meaning, including "fearful" or "timid" and, by implication, "faithless."

Do you understand the first three words of this sentence? "In the Greek..." I am speaking in the sentence above of the Greek language, in particular the word "deilos." Why this isn't as plain as the nose on your face is a mystery to me...I suspect, though, that it has to do with being unable to acknowledge you've made a mistake in your criticism of my comments.

Kenny'sID said:

I don't post it for reason of argument, but so others can decide for themselves and if they know what to look for, see exactly how OSAS is defended .

Click to expand...

Uh huh. This is a very poor attempt at the logical fallacy called "poisoning the well" and may also qualify as something of a Strawman. It's amazing to me that you think anyone will be taken in by your rather transparent antics here.

Kenny'sID said:

Over the years, on this subject, I've learned not to expect answers to certain questions, just a reaction, and I already have yours.

Thanks for the productive conversation.

Click to expand...

Uh huh.

Ronald said:

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast." Eph. 2:8, 9

Click to expand...

Hi Ronald

You write:
<<
Salvation is a gift. Therefore, faith itself is a gift, it has to be, it is part of salvation, part of God's grace.
>>

setst RE:
What you are saying above is that we are saved so we can believe. . .

All the Scriptures in the Bible state we receive salvation by faith. All of them. I did provide some of these Scriptures for you. For instance:

Romans 5:1-2 (WEB)
5 Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; 2 through whom we also have our access by faith into this grace in which we stand. We rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

You will not find one Scripture that states that God saves us so we can believe.

Ronald writes:
<<
God opens your eyes, lifts the veil so you can see. He enables us to have faith in varying degrees.

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.” Gal. 5:22, 23
>>

setst RE:
These are the fruits (gifts) of the Spirit to those already saved - Paul is talking to Spirit Filled believers.

How do we know this? Because the Spirit is only received by faith, and the gifts of the Spirit are for those already saved:

Regeneration of the indwelling Spirit only by faith...

Acts 5 (WEB) 32 We are His witnesses of these things; and so also is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.

Galatians 3:2 (NIV) Bolding mine… 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?

Ephesians 1 (WEB) 13 in whom you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation—in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a pledge of our inheritance, to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of his glory.

Acts 2 (WEB) 38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Ronald writes:
<<
>Faith here, is the part of the list of the fruit of the Spirit, that grows in the Christian. The Spirit is given to us, without which you could muster faith unto salvation.
>>

setst RE: The fruits of the Spirit are manifest in those who are already believing Christians. The Spirit was not even given to believers in the Old Testament because Christ had not been glorfied. How did they repent and believe in the Old Testament without having received the Spirit?

John 7:38-39 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.”
39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus wasn’t yet glorified.

Ronald writes:
<<
It is the same for everything else on the list. Jesus says, My peace I give to you, not the peace that the world gives.
>>

setst RE: Jesus gives peace to His disciples. Why? Because they keep His words; they believe in Him: See: John 14:24-30 (The verses you quoted from).

Ronald writes:
<<
“For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,” 1 Cor. 12:8, 9
>Of the spiritual gifts, faith is given. So it varies with the individual, one has more wisdom, maybe less faith; one is given the gift of healing.
"As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions." Rom. 14:1 Oops!
>>

setst RE:
1 Cor 12:8-9 is again referring to Spiritual gifts, including faith to some (not all), to carry out those gifts to those already saved.

1 Corinthians 12:8-9 (WEB)
8 For to one is given through the Spirit the word of wisdom, and to another the word of knowledge, according to the same Spirit; 9 to another faith, by the same Spirit; and to another gifts of healings, by the same Spirit

Since the Spirit is only giving faith to some in the body of Christ, does that mean all the others are saved without faith?

OR is the Spirit giving a measure of faith to those already saved by faith as a Spiritual Gift to carry out a purpose?

You also quote Rom. 12:3-8. This again has to do with Spiritual Gifts of the Spirit to those already saved and indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Remember, the Holy Spirit only indwells those who believe.

Ronald writes:
<<
Grace is unmerited favor - a gift.
>>

setst RE: I agree. That is why God accredits righteousness to us as a gift to those who believe. I provided the Scriptures.

God's word does not contradict itself.
You can't say you are saved so you can believe by perverting the meaning of the Passage, when God's word clearly states we are saved by faith, and only gain access to God's grace by faith.

You have to show me by Scripture that the faith to be saved is a gift of God, otherwise those are just your words, not God's words. But you can't, because if you did find such Scripture then God's Word would contradict itself. Which means God's Word is not true.

Ronald writes:
<<
EVERYTHING THAT IS GOOD COMES FROM GOD AND THEREFORE A GIFT.
YOU CANNOT DO ANYTHING WITHOUT HIM, OR IN OTHER WORDS, YOU CAN DO NOTHING GOOD WITHOUT HIM.
>>

setst RE: I agree that everything good comes from God; however, even the wicked can do good things:

Matthew 7:11 (WEB) If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

Regarding Salvation, Scripture states you must believe to receive the GIFT of God's righteousness and salvation:

Romans 4:4-5 (NIV) Bolding mine… 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Ronald writes:
God does ALL good works through us. He gets the credit.
"for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." Phil. 2:13
"I can do all things through Him who strengthens me." Phil. 4:13

setst RE: The “good works” God prepared for us to do is only accomplished when, by faith, we obey that same Spirit of God we received by faith.

Romans 8:12-13
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Galatians 5:24-25 (WEB)
24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let’s also walk by the Spirit.

Galatians 6:8 (WEB)
8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption.
But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

Galatians 5 (WEB)
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you won’t fulfill the lust of the flesh.

Therefore, regeneration and eternal life is God’s work in those who, by faith, obey His Spirit that indwells the believer. This is regeneration – only by faith.

To do the good works that God created us for, we must, by faith, be in Christ, which is to be obedient to His Spirit who lives in us by faith to be saved. We saw the Scriptures. And that is why we must work out our salvation with fear and trembling (living by God’s Spirit in us). By so doing, God is working out His will in our lives.

Philippians 2:12-13 (WEB)
12 So then, my beloved, even as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God who works in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure.

For God to work out His good pleasure, you must obey the Spirit of God that lives in you with fear and trembling.

Ronald said:

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast." Eph. 2:8, 9


Oh my...
>"this" or "that" in various translations represents our salvation.
Salvation is a gift. Therefore, faith itself is a gift, it has to be, it is part of salvation, part of God's grace. God opens your eyes, lifts the veil so you can see. He enables us to have faith in varying degrees.

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.” Gal. 5:22, 23

>Faith here, is the part of the list of the fruit of the Spirit, that grows in the Christian. The Spirit is given to us, without which you could muster faith unto salvation. It is the same for everything else on the list. Jesus says, My peace I give to you, not the peace that the world gives.

“For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,” 1 Cor. 12:8, 9
>Of the spiritual gifts, faith is given. So it varies with the individual, one has more wisdom, maybe less faith; one is given the gift of healing.
"As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions." Rom. 14:1 Oops!

”For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith. For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith; if service, in his serving; or he who teaches, in his teaching; or he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.” Rom. 12:3-8

Grace is unmerited favor - a gift.
Spiritual Faith is a gift - given in varying proportions according to His purpose.
Physical Life, food, everything on the planet with all the animals, plants, trees, God's creation is a gift. My dog Lulu is a gift - a wonderful creature, loyal, happy to see me always. But her faith had to grow, through trust in me feeding her, loving her. But that faith can fail, it is conditional, if I stop feeding her or don't come home or die.
People have faith in things and other people based on conditions, facts or history, whatever. We have faith that the sun will rise, because it has before on schedule. A child has faith in his parents to care for him because they care for him. Other children don't. We trust each other, depend on each other, but human faith is fragile, conditional and it can fail. The kind of faith God gives is spiritual, not generated by ourselves
Spiritual Life is a gift.
Of the Spiritual gifts, faith is one.
EVERYTHING THAT IS GOOD COMES FROM GOD AND THEREFORE A GIFT.
YOU CANNOT DO ANYTHING WITHOUT HIM, OR IN OTHER WORDS, YOU CAN DO NOTHING GOOD WITHOUT HIM.

God does ALL good works through us. He gets the credit.
"for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." Phil. 2:13
"I can do all things through Him who strengthens me." Phil. 4:13

Click to expand...

Do we need to be do good in order to get to heaven or can we pretty much do nothing after we're saved, as long as we have faith?

aiki said:

Context determines what sort of "falling away" is in view. I have yet to see an instance in Scripture where a "falling away" is clearly from a genuinely saved condition.

Click to expand...

Hi Aiki,

You write:
<<
Context determines what sort of "falling away" is in view. I have yet to see an instance in Scripture where a "falling away" is clearly from a genuinely saved condition.
>>

setst RE:

God places the responsibility on the Christian to remain faithful and to be overcomers to receive eternal life...

1 Timothy 4 16 Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.

2 Timothy 4:7-8
7 I have fought the good fight. I have finished the course. I have kept the faith. 8 From now on, there is stored up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will give to me on that day; and not to me only, but also to all those who have loved his appearing.

Revelation 2:10-11 (WEB) 10 Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies. He who overcomes won’t be harmed by the second death.

God places the responsibility on Christians to repent from their fallen condition or be lost...

Revelation 2:4-7 (WEB) 4 But I have this against you, that you left your first love. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen, and repent and do the first works; or else I am coming to you swiftly, and will move your lamp stand out of its place, unless you repent. 6 But this you have, that you hate the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of my God.

Revelation 3:2-5 … 2 Wake up, and keep the things that remain, which are about to die, for I have found no works of yours perfected before my God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If therefore you do not wake up, I will come as a thief, and you won't know what hour I will come to you. 4 Nevertheless you have a few names in Sardis that did not defile their garments. They will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes will be arrayed in white garments, and I will in no way blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

God places the responsibility on each person to strive hard to enter the narrow door to be saved...

Luke 13:22-24 (WEB) Bolding mine … The Narrow Door
22 He went on his way through cities and villages, teaching, and traveling on to Jerusalem. 23 One said to him, “Lord, are they few who are saved?”
He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter in by the narrow door, for many, I tell you, will seek to enter in, and will not be able

Aiki writes:
Most SAL proponents go to Hebrews 6:4-6 as an example, but it is fairly easy to argue that a saved person is not actually described in the passage.

setst RE:
Hebrews 6:4-6 (WEB)
4 For concerning those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify the Son of God for themselves again, and put him to open shame.

The persons described here are those who repented and partook of the Holy Spirit. Only those who believe receive the Holy Spirit.

Galatians 3 (WEB) Bolding mine… 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us. For it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree,”[a] 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Christ Jesus; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

This is describing someone who was saved.

Verse 5 states that these persons fell away.

Fell away from what?

Verse 5 continues that such who fall away and then try to repent are like making Jesus be crucified all over again. So, before falling away, the crucifixion of Jesus was sufficient for their initial repentance.

Aiki writes:
Some also resort to Galatians 5:4. But this, too, does not have anything to do with the loss of salvation.

setst RE:
Galatians 5:3-4 (WEB)
3 Yes, I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 You are alienated from Christ, you who desire to be justified by the law. You have fallen away from grace.

Paul is addressing those who were faithful in the Church at Galatia, but they then became deceived into thinking they had to obey the law too. Paul is warning them against falling away.

Here are some of many other Passages written to Christians warning them about falling away from the faith...

Those who have the indwelling Spirit must obey the Spirit to be saved:

Romans 8 (NIV)
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Galatians 5 (WEB)
24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let’s also walk by the Spirit.

Galatians 6 (WEB)
8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap Eternal Life.

You can be saved by faith, but be severed from Christ if you do not stand firm in the faith - the possibility of losing ones salvation is very real, that is why we must fear God...

Romans 11 (WEB) Bolding mine… 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.” 20 True; by their unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by your faith. Don’t be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God didn’t spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 See then the goodness and severity of God. Toward those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 They also, if they don’t continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

You can be blotted out of the Book of Life if you do not remain faithful, therefore God places the responsibility on Christians to remain victorious...

Revelation 3:5
The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the Book of Life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels.

The next Passages are speaking to "brothers" warning them from becoming hardened by sin. "WE" must hold fast firm to the end.

Hebrews 3:12-14 (WEB) Bolding mine 12 Beware, brothers, lest perhaps there be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God; 13 but exhort one another day by day, so long as it is called “today”; lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm to the end

Hebrews 10:35-36 (WEB) 35 Therefore do not throw away your boldness, which has a great reward. 36 For you need patient endurance so that, having done the will of God, you may receive the Promise.

Paul compares Timothy to other Christians who have fallen away, warning Timothy not to be like them.

1 Timothy 1:18-19 (WEB) 18 This instruction I commit to you, my child Timothy, according to the prophecies which led the way to you, that by them you may wage the good warfare; 19 holding faith and a good conscience; which some having thrust away made a shipwreck concerning the faith.

In later times some will fall away from the faith and be lost.

1 Timothy 4:1 (WEB) 1 But the Spirit says expressly that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons.

They can't fall away from a faith they never had.

Aiki writes:
In any case, it doesn't follow that if a letter is written to Christians it must therefore contain matters that pertain only to them. The "we" and "us" refer to those within the Church - but not necessarily as genuine members of it.

setst RE: The "we" or "us" is definitely written to those who are saved, warning them to remain faithful to be eternally saved. Notice the sobering reality that they can be lost if they do not remain faithful.

Hebrews 4:4
4 Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it.

Hebrews 4:11
11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.

Hebrews 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God... 35 So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded.

I am guessing you will explain away the clear message given in each of these Passages. However, I can read and understand communication enough to know what is actually stated in these Passages once I remove the blinders of deceit.

setst777 said:

Hi Aiki,

You write:
<<
Context determines what sort of "falling away" is in view. I have yet to see an instance in Scripture where a "falling away" is clearly from a genuinely saved condition.
>>

setst RE:

God places the responsibility on the Christian to remain faithful and to be overcomers to receive eternal life...

1 Timothy 4 16 Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.

2 Timothy 4:7-8
7 I have fought the good fight. I have finished the course. I have kept the faith. 8 From now on, there is stored up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will give to me on that day; and not to me only, but also to all those who have loved his appearing.

Revelation 2:10-11 (WEB) 10 Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies. He who overcomes won’t be harmed by the second death.

God places the responsibility on Christians to repent from their fallen condition or be lost...

Revelation 2:4-7 (WEB) 4 But I have this against you, that you left your first love. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen, and repent and do the first works; or else I am coming to you swiftly, and will move your lamp stand out of its place, unless you repent. 6 But this you have, that you hate the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of my God.

Revelation 3:2-5 … 2 Wake up, and keep the things that remain, which are about to die, for I have found no works of yours perfected before my God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If therefore you do not wake up, I will come as a thief, and you won't know what hour I will come to you. 4 Nevertheless you have a few names in Sardis that did not defile their garments. They will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes will be arrayed in white garments, and I will in no way blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

God places the responsibility on each person to strive hard to enter the narrow door to be saved...

Luke 13:22-24 (WEB) Bolding mine … The Narrow Door
22 He went on his way through cities and villages, teaching, and traveling on to Jerusalem. 23 One said to him, “Lord, are they few who are saved?”
He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter in by the narrow door, for many, I tell you, will seek to enter in, and will not be able

Aiki writes:
Most SAL proponents go to Hebrews 6:4-6 as an example, but it is fairly easy to argue that a saved person is not actually described in the passage.

setst RE:
Hebrews 6:4-6 (WEB)
4 For concerning those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify the Son of God for themselves again, and put him to open shame.

The persons described here are those who repented and partook of the Holy Spirit. Only those who believe receive the Holy Spirit.

Galatians 3 (WEB) Bolding mine… 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us. For it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree,”[a] 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Christ Jesus; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

This is describing someone who was saved.

Verse 5 states that these persons fell away.

Fell away from what?

Verse 5 continues that such who fall away and then try to repent are like making Jesus be crucified all over again. So, before falling away, the crucifixion of Jesus was sufficient for their initial repentance.

Aiki writes:
Some also resort to Galatians 5:4. But this, too, does not have anything to do with the loss of salvation.

setst RE:
Galatians 5:3-4 (WEB)
3 Yes, I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 You are alienated from Christ, you who desire to be justified by the law. You have fallen away from grace.

Paul is addressing those who were faithful in the Church at Galatia, but they then became deceived into thinking they had to obey the law too. Paul is warning them against falling away.

Here are some of many other Passages written to Christians warning them about falling away from the faith...

Those who have the indwelling Spirit must obey the Spirit to be saved:

Romans 8 (NIV)
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Galatians 5 (WEB)
24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let’s also walk by the Spirit.

Galatians 6 (WEB)
8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap Eternal Life.

You can be saved by faith, but be severed from Christ if you do not stand firm in the faith - the possibility of losing ones salvation is very real, that is why we must fear God...

Romans 11 (WEB) Bolding mine… 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.” 20 True; by their unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by your faith. Don’t be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God didn’t spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 See then the goodness and severity of God. Toward those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 They also, if they don’t continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

You can be blotted out of the Book of Life if you do not remain faithful, therefore God places the responsibility on Christians to remain victorious...

Revelation 3:5
The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the Book of Life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels.

The next Passages are speaking to "brothers" warning them from becoming hardened by sin. "WE" must hold fast firm to the end.

Hebrews 3:12-14 (WEB) Bolding mine 12 Beware, brothers, lest perhaps there be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God; 13 but exhort one another day by day, so long as it is called “today”; lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm to the end

Hebrews 10:35-36 (WEB) 35 Therefore do not throw away your boldness, which has a great reward. 36 For you need patient endurance so that, having done the will of God, you may receive the Promise.

Paul compares Timothy to other Christians who have fallen away, warning Timothy not to be like them.

1 Timothy 1:18-19 (WEB) 18 This instruction I commit to you, my child Timothy, according to the prophecies which led the way to you, that by them you may wage the good warfare; 19 holding faith and a good conscience; which some having thrust away made a shipwreck concerning the faith.

In later times some will fall away from the faith and be lost.

1 Timothy 4:1 (WEB) 1 But the Spirit says expressly that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons.

They can't fall away from a faith they never had.

Aiki writes:
In any case, it doesn't follow that if a letter is written to Christians it must therefore contain matters that pertain only to them. The "we" and "us" refer to those within the Church - but not necessarily as genuine members of it.

setst RE: The "we" or "us" is definitely written to those who are saved, warning them to remain faithful to be eternally saved. Notice the sobering reality that they can be lost if they do not remain faithful.

Hebrews 4:4
4 Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it.

Hebrews 4:11
11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.

Hebrews 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God... 35 So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded.

I am guessing you will explain away the clear message given in each of these Passages. However, I can read and understand communication enough to know what is actually stated in these Passages once I remove the blinders of deceit.

Click to expand...

We can quote the entire Bible and have quite a different perspective.
You seem to credit man as being solely responsible for his faith. You credit salvation and grace to God, but credit man for faith as if faith isn't part of God's gifts. I think that is your obstacle.
"No one can come to the Father unless He draws them". Simply, He enables us to believe. He removes the veil of blindness, orchestrates the events and people that lead you toward that special moment - a divine appointment. He draws you and gives spiritual vision.
Man cannot jumpstart this process by human faith, reasoning ... figure it out by all the rational or intellectual knowledge. It just is not possible BEFORE God removes your blindness.
HE ENABLES YOU TO BELIEVE, because we have a defect (our sin nature), simply a dead spiritual compartment - it is empty.
Faith comes by the WORD of GOD and so He draws us to His Word which has power, is sharper than a two-edged sword, able to penetrate ... even to divide soul and spirit. And that is what He does, separates (sanctified our spirit). He are not able to do this and so your faith is born and flourished by the power of God.
The power of the Word is responsible for your faith. The Bible says FAITH COMES BY THE WORD.
You are drawn to Jesus by God, NOT by your own will. We, as sinful creatures, have a propensity to rebel against God, push away from Him with hate and negativity.
You are chosen, elect, PREDESTINED TO BE transformed into the likeness of Jesus.
This drawing leads you to His Word.
He orchestrates the whole divine appointment.
His Word begins to penetrate and change you, enlighten you and you begin to believe.

So far, that's all God's doing, enabling you to believe.
Now along the way one can resist and reject Him initially; but if you are chosen and called, you will experience an inner battle going on. When we move closer to Christ, the enemy tries to thwart this event from taking place, putting doubts and lies in the way. Some describe this finally battle as being "dragged to the altar".
FAITH COMES BY THE WORD _ OF GOD
NOT THE WILL OF MAN.
THE ENTIRE PACKAGE IS A GIFT.
We as Christians are responsible for nourishing our faith, watering the seed, by reading the Word, cooperating with God's plan, practicing, attending church, praying, etc. We are commanded to love and encourage one another, obey and this is accomplished and everything else that is good by the LORD working in you.

So if you want to continue to hold to your view that faith is not a gift and does not come by God's power and His Word, and that He doesn't enable us to believe, He doesn't draw us and orchestrate the whole experience, in other words: He isn't the AUTHOR OF OUR FAITH ... you go ahead and keep your view. I'LL KEEP MINE. God is the Author of our Faith. I'm done here, God bless you and may He strenghten your faith.