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3 People Groups Going into the Lake of Fire

aiki

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Do God's warnings produce "craven fear"?

Only in those who don't know Him as their Heavenly Father.

If there, is that what they'd be there for?

Certainly, the wrath of God is intended to propel the unrepentant, unsaved sinner toward God. But the believer ought to have boldness in the day of judgment (1 John 4:16-17), being the redeemed, adopted, justified, sanctified child of God that s/he is.

Perhaps I should be asking ...

Do you see any dire warnings directed
at everyone in the 4 gospels?

In the Gospels, the atoning work of Christ had not yet been accomplished. Christ's warnings were never to a saved audience but only ever to those who might, after his sacrificial work at Calvary, enter into God's kingdom.

Do you see any dire warnings directed
at church members in the NT epistles?

The "dire warnings" you want to direct at believers are, I believe, actually directed at false converts, or the unsaved, not at genuine, born-again people. And sometimes you are reading into verses a saved-and-lost construction, pushing the meaning of a verse farther toward your SAL view than it ought to go.
 
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Kenny'sID

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W/O me going and reading it again ...
IMO, almost anything could make a shallow
intellectual believer fall away from any kind
of true and real belief system.

IOW, casual belief is easily cancelled.

"No root" would equate to a shallow root system, so yes, shallow.
 
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BCsenior

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Well gee, I can always count on this forum to make me feel as though there is NO hope for my salvation. I don't know why I'm drawn to browse the posts.
Why is there no hope for your salvation
from what you read here?
I assure you that is not what is intended.

I am trying to help you in your salvation,
which is a process ... not hinder it.

E.G. I have a full page of NT verses, which say:
the believer must ENDURE in his/her faith
until the end of life ... to gain eternal life!
 
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BCsenior

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The "dire warnings" you want to direct at believers are, I believe, actually directed at false converts, or the unsaved, not at genuine, born-again people.
Okay, you believe that N. A. churches are filled with people who are NOT born-again.
(Because they ARE filled with people who are
involved in habitual sin, including pastors.)
 
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Kenny'sID

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"...the word you render "cowardly" (deilos) is actually a term broader in its meaning, including "fearful" or "timid" and, by implication, "faithless."

As you can see here, I did not write, "cowardly means lack of faith." I wrote instead that the Greek term "deilos" has a broader meaning than that which the OP had allowed.

That is exactly what you wrote. You said the broader meaning of Coward included "fearful" or "timid". It's right there in black and white.

But forget that for the moment and tell me what part of any of that implied "faith"? It appears you pulled the so called fact of "coward" meaning "faith" right out of thin air with nothing whatsoever to back it up.

What makes "coward" really mean "faith" as you are claiming it does?
 
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Kenny'sID

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It never ceases to amaze me that people insist they understand when they don't. Did you notice that right in that verse it says " these have NO ROOT"? What does that mean to you. Can a tree grow with no roots? It may look normal, standing there for awhile, even get rained on and suck some water, but it won't really survive long without roots. Belief is a a word that can mean different things to people. It varies in substance. Belief can be weak or based on little knowledge - yet one can say, "Yah sure I believe in Jesus ... He was a good man, spoke wonderful words and He was a loving person ... I would like to be like Him ... but the Bible was written by man, has been changed and so what do we know for sure? I doubt He was capable of dying for everyone's sin or that He rose from the dead, but I believe what He said was good for us to follow ... so I go to Church and ... It just makes feel good about myself..."
Does this person have any roots?
WOULD you say he believes FULLY?

You must believe that Jesus died for our sins and rose on the third day according to the scriptures. And your faith in Him will be tested as plants with no or shallow riits are.
Belief goes so far on our own strength, but IF you have the Holy Spirit, it goes all the way.

Of course a tree can't grow or even stand without roots, that's why it fell away.

It must be pointed out my questions weren't answered, and that's fine, but still, that tells me you refuse to answer them because it will show you up as wrong.

Always the way with these arguments.
 
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Kenny'sID

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Well gee, I can always count on this forum to make me feel as though there is NO hope for my salvation. I don't know why I'm drawn to browse the posts.

What is your hope based on?

I would hope you were drawn here because you want true hope not just something that looks good. If you disagree with anything said here, why not say so, discuss it and give us a chance to show you it's biblical? I can only think of one reason you'd rather not do that.
 
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BCsenior

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Bravo, guys, for sticking up for Scripture,
and for what true saving faith really is!


And, believe me, it has nothing to do with
the false "grace-only" doctrine,
which is from the very pits of hell,
and which is so prevalent these days.

Pastors preach it mainly because
it's so popular ... keeps the folks
and their tithes comin' back.
 
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setst777

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Only in those who don't know Him as their Heavenly Father.

Certainly, the wrath of God is intended to propel the unrepentant, unsaved sinner toward God. But the believer ought to have boldness in the day of judgment (1 John 4:16-17), being the redeemed, adopted, justified, sanctified child of God that s/he is.

In the Gospels, the atoning work of Christ had not yet been accomplished. Christ's warnings were never to a saved audience but only ever to those who might, after his sacrificial work at Calvary, enter into God's kingdom.

The "dire warnings" you want to direct at believers are, I believe, actually directed at false converts, or the unsaved, not at genuine, born-again people. And sometimes you are reading into verses a saved-and-lost construction, pushing the meaning of a verse farther toward your SAL view than it ought to go.

Aiki,

Are the following Scriptures for Christians or Unbelievers? If written to the unbelievers, then why were the Epistles written to the Church?

2 Timothy 2:19 (NIV)
19 Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”

Romans 6:1-4 (WEB)
6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 May it never be! We who died to sin, how could we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him through baptism to death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life.

Ephesians 5:1-10 (WEB)
5 Be therefore imitators of God, as beloved children. 2 Walk in love, even as Christ also loved you, and gave himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling fragrance. 3 But sexual immorality, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not even be mentioned among you, as becomes saints; 4 nor filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not appropriate; but rather giving of thanks.
5 Know this for sure, that no sexually immoral person, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the Kingdom of Christ and God.
6 Let no one deceive you with empty words. For because of these things, the wrath of God comes on the children of disobedience. 7 Therefore don’t be partakers with them. 8 For you were once darkness, but are now light in the Lord. Walk as children of light, 9 for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth, 10 proving what is well pleasing to the Lord.

Galatians 5:16-24 (WEB)
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you won’t fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, that you may not do the things that you desire. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the deeds of the flesh are obvious, which are: adultery, sexual immorality, uncleanness, lustfulness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, strife, jealousies, outbursts of anger, rivalries, divisions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these; of which I forewarn you, even as I also forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s Kingdom.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith,[a] 23 gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts.
 
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aiki

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That is exactly what you wrote. You said the broader meaning of Coward included "fearful" or "timid". It's right there in black and white.

Well, there's nothing I can do about your reading comprehension, but I did not write "cowardly means lack of faith" as you said I had. I only pointed out that the word "deilos", translated "cowardly," has other meanings that the OP ignored.

But forget that for the moment and tell me what part of any of that implied "faith"? It appears you pulled the so called fact of "coward" meaning "faith" right out of thin air with nothing whatsoever to back it up.

??? Not following you here...You'll have to explain your thinking a bit.
 
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aiki

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Aiki,

Are the following Scriptures for Christians or Unbelievers? If written to the unbelievers, then why were the Epistles written to the Church?

Are you suggesting the Church does not have "tares" in it? It seems quite evident to me that it has always had false converts and outright non-believers in it ranks. Jesus mentioned them, as did the apostles. (Matthew 13:24-30; Matthew 7:21-23; Acts 20:29-30; 2 Peter 2, Hebrews 6:4-6, etc.) So, the Epistles were written to the Early Church, yes, but the Early Church was occupied - as the modern church is today - by "tares" as well as genuine believers. At times, what we read in Scripture addresses this reality.
 
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BCsenior

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... the Early Church was occupied - as the modern church is today - by "tares" as well as genuine believers. At times, what we read in Scripture addresses this reality.
It appears that I need to (again) post some NT verses, which clearly threaten LOSS of salvation
and also GAIN of eternal death (to believers).

Then, of course, we have many NT passages
written to the churches (wheat and tares),
which say that (habitual) sinners will NOT
be allowed into the Kingdom of God/heaven.

But, of course, you insist that true BACs
would never dream of being habitual sinners.
Paul in Romans 6 does NOT agree with you!
 
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BCsenior

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As Dave L said, "You do not understand the new birth!"
I understand it far better than both of you do!

Do you understand the 2nd Spirit baptism?
... which is second only in importance to
the 1st Spirit baptism (the new birth).

No ... do you understand anything?
How could you ... because ...
you don't have eyes to see and ears to hear.

When you hear (or are told) spiritual Truth,
the Holy Spirit CAN reveal to you that it is true,
but you need to have spiritual eyes and ears!

But, if He knows it's hopeless,
He doesn't waste His time.
 
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aiki

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It appears that I need to (again) post some NT verses, which clearly threaten LOSS of salvation
and also GAIN of eternal death (to believers).

Don't bother. You see in the verses and passages you cite what you want to see - even when it plainly isn't there.

Then, of course, we have many NT passages
written to the churches (wheat and tares),
which say that (habitual) sinners will NOT
be allowed into the Kingdom of God/heaven.

And I respond by pointing out what I have already pointed out to you in this thread which is that genuine believers don't live comfortably in willful, habitual sin. Anyone who claims to be saved but carries on like the devil without pang of conscience, the conviction of the Spirit, and the discipline of God has never been saved. The Bible clearly spells out what things give evidence of genuine salvation and careless, persistent immorality is not one of them.

But, of course, you insist that true BACs
would never dream of being habitual sinners.
Paul in Romans 6 does NOT agree with you!

I know Romans 6 pretty well. No where in the chapter do I see Paul ever promoting a saved-and-lost doctrine. No where.
 
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BCsenior

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I know Romans 6 pretty well. No where in the chapter do I see Paul ever promoting a saved-and-lost doctrine.
Yes, but he is plainly warning everyone
in the Roman church that habitual sinning
without repentance leads to eternal death
.
Obviously, this applies to any BAC
who chooses to go down that road.
Which thou sayest is impossible!

From the context of the NT ...
I'm saying you have no eyes and ears!
 
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Ronald

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There are misinterpretations of the Bible that we are witnessing on this thread.
Here are truths that apparently some of you do not understand:
Christ died for our sins - all of them, past, present and future. Consider if He did not and only for past sins, we would have to ask numerous times a day, everyday to forgive each and every unloving action or thought. This is putting Him back on the cross for every passing fleshly selfish act.
God operates outside our time domain, in eternity. He sees all, therefore forgives all. We still sin and we still confess our sins to Him and each other because we STILL HAVE SIN THAT DWELLS IN THE MEMBERS OF OUR FLESH. BUT NEWSFLASH: OUR SPIRITS ARE PURELY CLEANSED FOR ALL TIME. Which means at any given moment, if you were caught off guard and were killed instantly before you had a chance to confess your last sin, your salvation is secure, you are saved_ because salvation/faith is a GIFT. It can't be earned and by the way, unbeknownst to many, it cannot be lost.
"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast," Eph. 2:8, 9
Not of yourselves! That means before we are saved AND after we are saved. Because God gives a gift, His gift is sealed, secure ... otherwise our faith would be threatened, weakened, by the idea that we could lose it and we could never know for sure.

"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." John 1:12
"There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death." Rom.8:1, 2

No condemnation means not just for prior sins, BUT FOR ALL SINS. WE ARE FREE FROM THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH - WE CANNOT FALL AWAY AND THEN DIE, WE ARE FREE OF THAT HAPPENING!
FREE MEANS FREE. WE DON'T KEEP PUTTING CHRIST BACK ON THE CROSS FOR EVERY SINGLE SIN AFTER WE ARE TRANSFORMED INTO A NEW CREATURE, BORN AGAIN. Of course we have some ignorant people who speak against "these born again Christians", who have no understanding of what that means. They are not secure, in fear and that leads to them pointing fingers at others in judgment.

"And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you,, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you."
This is security, it is a gift, a promise that we can depend on. It's a done deal!

"And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever - the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you." John 14:16, 17
God does things with perfection and purpose. He does not draw His sheep, cleanse them, give them a gift of salvation/eternal life, and dwells in them for a trial period to see if any sins turn up that would cause Him to evacuate. HE KNOWS THE BEGINNING FROM THE END. HE IS FAITHFUL!

"You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law ..." Gal. 3:1-3, 13
Shall I explain this passage? No, if you don't get it, you don't get it.

"For we know that if our earthly house of our tabernacle be dissolved, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal, in the heavens." 2 Cor. 5:1
We know this. It is not some shallow promise that maybe we'll make it, it is certain, WE KNOW.
"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the LORD." 2 Cor. 5:8
"But in keeping with His promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness." 2 Peter 3:13
"Jesus answered and said to him, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.'" John 3:3



Don't know about the rest of you, but I'm saved, my salvation is secure, the Spirit of God dwells in me. Christ has redeemed me - not just for past sins, for all time! And no one, no power, can snatch me out of the Father's hand.
This is not boasting, it is a fact for those who are born again. OSAS
 
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Ronald

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I understand it far better than both of you do!

Do you understand the 2nd Spirit baptism?
... which is second only in importance to
the 1st Spirit baptism (the new birth).

No ... do you understand anything?
How could you ... because ...
you don't have eyes to see and ears to hear.

When you hear (or are told) spiritual Truth,
the Holy Spirit CAN reveal to you that it is true,
but you need to have spiritual eyes and ears!

But, if He knows it's hopeless,
He doesn't waste His time.
Nice boys in the photo ... sad to think you are teaching them that if they receive Jesus as their LORD and Savior, that their salvation is not for certain, they can lose it. So by fleshy works and practice, they just may make it to heaven _ or not! Pathetic!
 
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