• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
  • We hope the site problems here are now solved, however, if you still have any issues, please start a ticket in Contact Us

  • The rule regarding AI content has been updated. The rule now rules as follows:

    Be sure to credit AI when copying and pasting AI sources. Link to the site of the AI search, just like linking to an article.

A North African (Cyprianic) proposal for ecclesiology

Status
Not open for further replies.
I have been attempting a compromise solution between Catholic and Orthodox ecclesiology, and I believe I may have found one.

The compromise is based upon what I understand to be North African ecclesiology, largely Cyprian, although some Augustine is also considered.  The benefit I see in this approach is the unique position of the North Africans in that their approach to the Scriptural witness is Western, and so is in agreement with Rome on matters of interpretation and the historical witness of Roman primacy, while at the same time addressing similar concerns as the east in regard to the equality of bishops and conciliarism.

The North African ecclesiology is premised upon the Petrine foundation of the Church.1  Peter is the rock of Matthew 16:18 and on Peter Christ builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep (John 21:17).2 However, the passage speaks not merely to the prestige of the Roman see, but to the honor of all bishops.3 The form of this authority is the power to bind and loose and the remittance and retention of sins, as well as the administration of the sacramental life of the Church.4

While the other apostles were of equal power and authority with Peter, by means of Christ's commission and Holy Spirit (John 20:21-23)5, yet so as to maintain order, this authority finds it's source in Peter.6 The Throne of Peter is the uniting power of the episcopate (established by and on Christ) and is shared by all of the bishops.  While the source of this power finds its locus in the bishop of Rome as the See of Peter par excellence,7 yet all bishops are equal in all aspects of honor and authority to the bishop of Rome.8 For even as the Holy Spirit and the Son find their source in the monarchy of the Father, and yet are one with the Father and are equal in power and honor, so too are the bishops, for while they are many, yet they are one,9 for all bishops sit upon the Throne of Peter, but the Throne of Peter is one.10 From this source proceeds all of the episcopate, in a partnership of honor and power, and by it the episcopate is one and undivided.

Out of this one episcopate, we can see the development of two aspects of the shared Petrine office that bishops partake of.  These two aspects are episcopal privilege and episcopal duty.  In matters that do not touch upon bonds of concord and the sacramental unity of the Church, the bishop should have freedom to exercise their pastoral office over the People of God assigned to them.11 Episcopal duty is the preservation of those bonds of communion and sacramental unity of the Church,12 and thus episcopal privilege ends where it infringes upon episcopal duty.13 This duty is extended not only to the communion between bishops,14 but also on a local level between a bishop and his presbyters and deacons, and indeed between all of the people of God, particularly those the bishop has pastoral responsibility for.15

From the principle of a single episcopate proceeds also the principle of the Church being one,16 even as the Father is the source of the Son and the Holy Spirit, yet the divine essence is one.  The Church is founded upon the bishops and is controlled by the same.17 They are the Church who are united to their priest, the flock which adheres to its pastor.  Thus, the bishop is in the Church and the Church in the bishop, and whoever is not with the bishop is not in the Church.  The Church is catholic and one.  It is not divided nor can it be dissected, but is connected and bound together by the coherence of it's bishops with one another.18

This locus of unity among the episcopate, the bishop of Rome, must not operate with insolence or arrogantly assume authority for himself over his fellow bishops.19 To operate in resistance to this partnership of bishops is to cut himself off from the unity of love and estrange himself from his brethren, making him a rebel against the sacrament and the faith of the Church.20 Instead, the bishop of Rome must operate in conjunction with the college of bishops and not in resistance to the councillar authority of the episcopate.  Safety is found in the consent of the universal Church, whose voice is found started in regional councils and established in plenary councils of the Catholic Church under the direction of our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ.21

In the face of unrepentant Papal abuse, either in practice or doctrine, and where this had been brought to his attention by responsible members of the hierarchy (just as St. Paul reproved St. Peter to his face), a regional council would call upon the episcopate requesting a general council in order to hear its petition and for redress of grievances.  Such a council would then weigh the petition and render verdict.  In the case where judgement is passed against a Pope, it would be declared that the Roman See was vacant and a new bishop would be selected.
 
1. Cyprian Epistle 68:8 - Peter … on whom the Church was to be built

2. Cyprian; On the Unity of the Church (First version) Paragraph 4 - The Lord says to Peter: "I say unto thee, that thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17]

3. Cyprian; Epistle 26:1 - Our Lord, whose precepts and admonitions we ought to observe, describing the honour of a bishop and the order of His Church, speaks in the Gospel, and says to Peter: "I say unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church…”

4. Cyprian; Epistle 72:7 - But it is manifest where and by whom remission of sins can be given; to wit, that which is given in baptism. For first of all the Lord gave that power to Peter, upon whom He built the Church, and whence He appointed and showed the source of unity-the power, namely, that whatsoever he loosed on earth should be loosed in heaven. And after the resurrection, also, He speaks to the apostles, saying, "As the Father hath sent me, even so I send you. And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and saith, unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: whosesoever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whosesoever sins ye retain, they are retained." Whence we perceive that only they who are set over the Church and established in the Gospel law, and in the ordinance of the Lord, are allowed to baptize and to give remission of sins; but that without, nothing can either be bound or loosed, where there is none who can either bind or loose anything.

5. Cyprian; On the Unity of the Church (Second version) Paragraph 4 - …to all the apostles, after His resurrection, He gives an equal power, and says, "As the Father hath sent me, even so send I you: Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they shall be remitted unto him; and whose soever sins ye retain, they shall be retained;" … Assuredly the rest of the apostles were also the same as was Peter, endowed with a like partnership both of honour and power

6. Cyprian; On the Unity of the Church (First version) Paragraph 4 - although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was [i.e., apostles], but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair.

7. Cyprian; Epistle 44:3 - know that we have exhorted [those travelling to Rome] to acknowledge and hold the root and matrix of the Catholic Church
Also Epistle 51:1 - know at once that you held communion with [the Roman bishop], that is, with the Catholic Church
Epistle 54:14 - the throne of Peter, and to the chief church whence priestly unity takes its source; and not to consider that these were the Romans whose faith was praised in the preaching of the apostle

8. Cyprian; On the Unity of the Church (Second version) Paragraph 4 - Assuredly the rest of the apostles were also the same as was Peter, endowed with a like partnership both of honour and power; but the beginning proceeds from unity.

9. Cyprian; Epistle 51:24 - there is one Church, divided by Christ throughout the whole world into many members, and also one episcopate diffused through a harmonious multitude of many bishops
Also Cyprian; On the Unity of the Church (Second version) Paragraph 5 - The episcopate is one, each part of which is held by each one for the whole

10. Cyprian; Epistle 39:5 - There is one God, and Christ is one, and there is one Church, and one chair founded upon the rock by the word of the Lord

11. Cyprian; Epistle 71:3 - In which behalf we neither do violence to, nor impose a law upon, any one, since each prelate has in the administration of the Church the exercise of his will free, as he shall give an account of his conduct to the Lord

12. Cyprian; Epistle 51:24 - since the apostle admonishes that we should mutually sustain one another, and not withdraw from the unity which God has appointed, and says, "Bearing with one another in love, endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace."

13. Cyprian; Epistle 51:21 - While the bond of concord remains, and the undivided sacrament of the Catholic Church endures, every bishop disposes and directs his own acts

14. Cyprian; Epistle 68:8 - while the Church, which is Catholic and one, is not cut nor divided, but is indeed connected and bound together by the cement of priests who cohere with one another

15. Cyprian; Epistle 5:4 - I made up my mind to do nothing on my own private opinion, without [the Presbyters and Deacons] advice and without the consent of the people

16. Cyprian; On the Unity of the Church (First version) Paragraph 4 - a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church

17. Cyprian; Epistle 26:1- the Church is founded upon the bishops, and every act of the Church is controlled by these same rulers

18. Cyprian; Epistle 68:8 - they are the Church who are a people united to the priest, and the flock which adheres to its pastor. Whence you ought to know that the bishop is in the Church, and the Church in the bishop; and if any one be not with the bishop, that he is not in the Church, and that those flatter themselves in vain who creep in, not having peace with God's priests, and think that they communicate secretly with some; while the Church, which is Catholic and one, is not cut nor divided, but is indeed connected and bound together by the cement of priests who cohere with one another.

19. Cyprian; Epistle 70:3 - For neither did Peter, whom first the Lord chose, and upon whom He built His Church, when Paul disputed with him afterwards about circumcision, claim anything to himself insolently, nor arrogantly assume anything; so as to say that he held the primacy, and that he ought rather to be obeyed by novices and those lately come.

20. Cyprian; Epistle 51:24 - He then who neither maintains the unity of the Spirit nor the bond of peace, and separates himself from the band of the Church, and from the assembly of priests, can neither have the power nor the honour of a bishop, since he has refused to maintain either the unity or the peace of the episcopate.

21. Augustine, On Baptism Book VII, CHAP. 1:1 - For although the Holy Catholic Church throughout all nations be fortified by the authority of primitive custom and of a plenary Council
Also CHAP. 53:102 - But the safe course for us is, not to advance with any rashness of judgment in setting forth a view which has neither been started in any regionary Council of the Catholic Church nor established in a plenary one; but to assert, with all the confidence of a voice that cannot be gainsaid, what has been confirmed by the consent of the universal Church, under the direction of our Lord God and Saviour Jesus Christ.
 
Upvote 0

dignitized

Well-Known Member
Aug 5, 2005
24,931
759
✟29,618.00
>>>While the other apostles were of equal power and authority with Peter, by means of Christ's commission and Holy Spirit (John 20:21-23)5, yet so as to maintain order, this authority finds it's source in Peter.<<<

The authority of a bishop finds its source in Christ Jesus. Paul proves that by his very claims at apostleship.
 
Upvote 0

dignitized

Well-Known Member
Aug 5, 2005
24,931
759
✟29,618.00
I agree that Peter was first amongst the apostles but he was a first amongst equals.

As for the passage of Matthew - No I do not agree that peter is the rock upon which the church is built. I believe it was the faith and revelation given to peter by God the father (flesh and blood have not revealed this) that the church is built on. If the church, like any building is to stand or fall based upon its foundations I have to say that were the church in fact built upon peter, it would must needs fall. Peter was a human man with human failings - He was wrong repeatedly as scripture records. That is not a sure foundation. A sure foundation is that Revelation of peter. That Jesus Christ is the Messiah the Son of God and Satan cannot prevail against that truth :) Not then, not now, not EVER. :)

So I would have to say the order of authority would go - GOD - APOSTLES (with peter FIRST in dignity and precedence.)

I do not like to enter into Petrine debates they profit nothing and only serve to harden hearts against one another. :sigh:
 
Upvote 0
I agree that Peter was first amongst the apostles but he was a first amongst equals.

I said the same in my proposal.

On your concerns about the Petrine foundation of the Church, I have two points to make.

First, this proposal is intended to be a compromise solution between Catholics and Orthodox. Since Catholic ecclesiology is premised upon a Petrine foundation, I felt this was something that the Catholics could look to as a continuation of their own ecclesiology. This was an attempt to find a middle ground and not force one side or the other to surrender their beliefs unconditionally.

My second point is that the Matthew 16:18 is an intricate passage. We should not be so quick to throw away the obvious reference of naming Simon "rock" which is what Peter means, and and then saying that upon this rock Christ will build his Church. Next, one should ask why does Christ call Peter the rock? Is it not for his confession? Yes, indeed it is, thus it can be asserted that both is true, that the rock is Peter and his confession. I would not ask you to choose between the two options but to embrace a means of accepting both.
 
Upvote 0
Dear Br. Max,

Naturally, Peter and the other Apostles could only be foundational to the Church through the operation of the Holy Spirit. Forgive me for not making this explicit before, but I had assumed that this was generally understood. Of course Peter had the frailties of humanity, but he was also divinely commissioned and guided to lead Christs Church upon his departure.

As for you not exactly being under either, I must be confused, since I had associated your phrase "I believe it was the faith and revelation given to peter by God the father (flesh and blood have not revealed this) that the church is built on." with Peters confession of faith.
 
Upvote 0

dignitized

Well-Known Member
Aug 5, 2005
24,931
759
✟29,618.00
Squalid: When Christ commissioned Peter into his role in the church he did not commission a leader, he commissioned a servant. Peter, Lovest thou me? FEED my sheep. Peter was instructed to care for the sheep not to lead them.

We cannot forget that God is the shepherd - that HE will lead us beside the still waters. I do not see peter being asked to lead anywhere in scriptures. I see peter showing himself a leader, but No where in the scriptures is it stated that Peter was to lead.

I say I am not under either in that I am Neither Roman catholic, nor orthodox. (sorry for the confusion:))
 
Upvote 0
Dear Br. Max,

I believe we have reached a natural conclusion in our discussion. Thank you for helping me maintain a civil and irenic discussion.

I would add as a parting shot that the roles of leader and servant are not contrary to each other, and in fact are inseparably combined first in our Lord Jesus Christ, and subsequently in the Apostles he commissioned to guide the Church

Matthew 20:
25But Jesus called them to Himself and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those who are great exercise authority over them. 26Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you, let him be your servant. 27And whoever desires to be first among you, let him be your slave-- 28just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."
 
Upvote 0

dignitized

Well-Known Member
Aug 5, 2005
24,931
759
✟29,618.00
wanderer: :) of coure I agree that the best leader is a servent first :) St Francis was a prime example and one I hold dear to my heart.

I will give you that Peter was viewed as leader and rightly so, but it was not because of a God given mandate. The petrine ministry in the first centuries up until Sylvester was an exemplary one. Most of the problems come after Sylvetser accepts from Constentine the much discussed and debated "patrimony."

Tell me, have you ever read Dollingers the pope and the council? If you have not, I'm sure you would find it interesting :)
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.