2 Timothy 3:16

[seebs]

There is an interesting point about this; several translators believe that it is more accurately translated as

"Every Scripture inspired by God is also ..."

 

[Mr.Cheese]

That is a legitimate possibility.
"Every" can also mean "all." The conjunction can mean "and" or "also."

The state of being verb "is" must be supplied.

 

[Matthew]

That is a legitimate possibility.

All you have shown is that the words in themselves can be interpreted that way. You have not shown that the words when in 2 Tim 3:16 can be interpreted that way.

 

[Mr.Cheese]

What are you talking about?

What seebs posted is a completely legitimate translation. As far as I can see, the only difference between one and the other is the pronoun and the conjunction.
I'm at a complete loss to see what you are trying to say. In fact, my Greek-English New Testament offers that as an alternative translation.

 

[seebs]

And, if that's what it says, it implies strongly that we must distinguish between "Scripture inspired by God" and "other stuff we collect and study", at least to some extent.

 

[Mr.Cheese]

Unfortunately, Greek is ambiguous in a lot of cases. It is very sensitive to context, syntax, and grammar. You have to consider all three in translating it. This passage isn't a tricky one to translate because your options get narrowed down pretty well. But the pronoun and the conjunction are a toss up. The pronoun can mean every, each, all, and any. The conjunction can have several usages. When it comes to translating this passage, there is more than one way to translate the phrase legitimately. Granted, a few words being changed raises the issue of which interpretation is the most valid. Therein lies the greatest difficulty and responsibility in translating. Sometimes, most often, the different possibilities are insignificant. Other times that is not the case. All I have said here is that the possible translation you mentioned is a legitimate translation. Interpretation aside, it is a good translation.
Ok. I said this wasn't a tricky passage. There is no state of being verb. You have to supply it somewhere. Is it "All scripture is..." or "Inspired by God is...?"
Since I'm not getting graded on this I'm not going to fry my brain over it.


Now that I read my previous post it seems a little grumpy. That would have been my irritation at the registrar's office. I'm usually not grumpy.

 

[Matthew]

What are you talking about?

What seebs posted is a completely legitimate translation. As far as I can see, the only difference between one and the other is the pronoun and the conjunction.

One would need to make an argument that in this case both of these changes are probable.

I'm at a complete loss to see what you are trying to say. In fact, my Greek-English New Testament offers that as an alternative translation.

Argument from authority. (There are other authorities that say that that translation is not probable.)

And, if that's what it says, it implies strongly that we must distinguish between "Scripture inspired by God" and "other stuff we collect and study", at least to some extent.

Provided that there are no other scriptures, you are correct.

As for Mr. Cheese's last argument, I will have to check it out.

 

[filosofer]

Originally posted by Mr.Cheese
Unfortunately, Greek is ambiguous in a lot of cases. It is very sensitive to context, syntax, and grammar. You have to consider all three in translating it. This passage isn't a tricky one to translate because your options get narrowed down pretty well. But the pronoun and the conjunction are a toss up. The pronoun can mean every, each, all, and any.

Well, not exactly. While the adjective (not, pronoun) can have those meanings, there is another factor to consider: How does the word in Greek (PAS/PAN) relate to the Greek article or lack of the article, in this case with GRAFH? What difference does it make when the noun it modifies is in the plural? And how does that relate to whether it can mean "all" (inclusively) or "every" (distributively) or even "whole" (as a unit)? There is a significant difference in meaning.

The conjunction can have several usages. When it comes to translating this passage, there is more than one way to translate the phrase legitimately. Granted, a few words being changed raises the issue of which interpretation is the most valid. Therein lies the greatest difficulty and responsibility in translating. Sometimes, most often, the different possibilities are insignificant. Other times that is not the case. All I have said here is that the possible translation you mentioned is a legitimate translation. Interpretation aside, it is a good translation.

"sometimes, most often" - is that a "perhaps maybe almost assured?

Ok. I said this wasn't a tricky passage. There is no state of being verb. You have to supply it somewhere. Is it "All scripture is..." or "Inspired by God is...?"
Since I'm not getting graded on this I'm not going to fry my brain over it.

But that isn't what makes this a "tricky" passage. That is common (standard) Greek practice.

Now that I read my previous post it seems a little grumpy. That would have been my irritation at the registrar's office. I'm usually not grumpy.

That's okay we all have those kinds of days.

But the key is whether is it "all day" or "every day" !

I will continue this dialog on this passage, if you desire. We can examine some of the other passages where PAS/PAN is used with and without the article. Then we can see what some of the implications are for translation of those passages as well as for this one.

 

[Mr.Cheese]

LOL.
Darned if that isn't an adjective.

When I started looking into the verse I stopped myself and said, "I don't have to turn this in."
I guess if the adjective is predicative then we have our state of being verb. But I'm not even gonna look up to see if that's a possibility. I'll be doing plenty of this in two days.
I think maybe I'll kind of go to bed, sort of.

 

[Susan]

I personally believe that all Scripture is God-breathed, and that everything that the passage says that the Bible is suitable for, it is indeed suitable for.

However, different Scriptures are for different situations and to be read in their proper context. This is not "making the context the final authority," it is simply using the appropriate book/chapter/verse for the appropriate reason. IOW, you do not use a hammer to comb your hair or learn about history from the study of a mathematics text.

Therefore, for example, using, say, Leviticus and Deuteronomy as THE example for the Christian life rather than the books more suited to this purpose (John, Romans, Galatians, Ephesians among others) would lead to a disaster.

This is not to say that Leviticus and/or Deuteronomy is/are not relevant or God's Word (it is/they are both relevant and the Word of God): it is only to say that if *we base all of our teachings for Christian living* on Leviticus and Deuteronomy alone, we become the imitators of some of the oldest heretics known to Christianity.

 

[Mr.Cheese]

Hmm...
This is teaching me to pay more attention before I open my mouth. What seemed like no big deal now may be beyond my current knowledge of syntax.
There is no article on the noun or the adjective so that doesn't help at all.
I don't see how this could be predicative. But could the participial phrase be a nominative compliment? We could supply a state of being verb in this case and come up with "Every scripture is inspired by God and..."
Is it also possible to make the whole beginning phrase the subject and come up with "Every scripture inspired by God is..." To me it seems the state of being verb belongs between the two nominatives.
Mr.Cheese is going to go read up on syntax now.