2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

BNR32FAN · Oct 12, 2018

LightLoveHope said:
I spent 2 years discussing with a group who had changed all the meanings of the words of scripture. That way they could have a different faith with the same bible. It was odd discussing with them, because their answer was to repeat the words with their meaning, as if this changed the truth. The real trouble was they had invented another reality, and stayed there by changing language.

The definition of insanity is when you make reality fit your world rather than your world fit reality. But what happens when you are a true legalist, ocd where a thought is sin, and just one sin condemned them to not be forgiven by God.

How do you cope with this level of guilt? You leave the faith, but cannot survive outside faith. You then change the faith so your guilt is ok, and you can live with yourself. It is one solution to ocd self condemnation, but not a good one.

Then they tried to convince me they were sane, and ended up condemning me to hell.
Once people as so dependent of their model above reality, there is no discussion.

Yes I agree I actually blocked FG2 for a couple months but unblocked him because I wanted to be able to expose his errors so that others may see the bigger picture of God’s Word.

BNR32FAN · Oct 12, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
I'm talking about the 'early church'. Did you not read the quote from Wikipedia that I shared?

How do you know that? Did you take a survey, or know someone who did?

And do you not believe the warning in Scripture by Paul in Acts 20:29?

Actually I gave an excellent example of Acts 20:29 when I mentioned Nestorius and how the church handled the situation. I didn’t see your quote from Wikipedia. Please include the link.

BNR32FAN · Oct 12, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Let's be clear here. Believing that any believer can end up perishing is NOT believing Jesus. How is that different from not following Jesus?

I've never even suggested that about you. I'm only pointing out that by believing that a believer can perish is directly in conflict with what Jesus said.

This is a description of Jesus' sheep. NOT a condition for becoming His sheep.

Here's the problem with your very narrowly forced 'meaning' to v.27:
Jesus spoke of people who "believed for a while and then fell away" in Luke 8:13. So here is a clear example of one of His sheep who followed for a while and then ceased.

So don't give me this nonsense that v.27 is a condition for being His sheep. It's a general description in a point in time. Jesus wasn't speaking of a lifetime commitment in order to be His sheep. Which seems to be your opinion.

Luke 8:13 proves that your "understanding" of John 10:27 is false.

Luke 8:13 completely supports our interpretation of John 10:27. Those people did believe but they didn’t continue to believe. They didn’t abide, they didn’t continue to follow. Luke 8:13 specifically says they did believe and the result of their turning away was the same result in John 15:6. They withered and dried up resulting in death. I don’t see how Luke 8:13 can in any way support your interpretation of verse John 10:27. They did believe but they do not receive salvation.

LightLoveHope · Oct 12, 2018

BNR32FAN said:
Luke 8:13 completely supports our interpretation of John 10:27. Those people did believe but they didn’t continue to believe. They didn’t abide, they didn’t continue to follow. Luke 8:13 specifically says they did believe and the result of their turning away was the same result in John 15:6. They withered and dried up resulting in death. I don’t see how Luke 8:13 can in any way support your interpretation of verse John 10:27. They did believe but they do not receive salvation.

Reading what you wrote about "salvation" it made me think of a unusual phrase.
That they might become one as we are one.

You could think this is a union related to spiritual oneness like a super spiritual zapping.
But once we as a people understanding love, sharing, intimacy, boundaries, respect where we walk literally as brother and sisters sharing our lives, there is a true oneness. In this place this is the Kingdom of heaven. If maintained it becomes eternal and literally salvation.

To those whose experience is very limited and personal, cutoff and isolated, faith is such an intellectual assent, so salvation becomes this assent because surely it could mean nothing else.
So I can see how interpretation of these concepts are totally molded by where one is and where one has got to. This always constrains how we share and what it means. I could not convey these ideas to my relatives, because it is about something and a way of living they do not know.

God bless

FreeGrace2 · Oct 12, 2018

LightLoveHope said:
Hi Free,

You know my position.

Jesus says this

Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.
Matt 5:6

If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work.
1 cor 3:12-13

If the foundation has been lost, then nothing remains.

I find it rather instructive that you would say this right AFTER quoting 1 Cor 3:12-13.

You think the foundation can be lost. However, you failed to keep reading (a common problem among those of your ilk).

14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

Here is an easy to follow color coded explanation of these 2 verses:
The green words in v.14 refer to eternal reward for service.
In v.15, the red words refer to LOSS of reward because of lack of service or faulty service. The blue words indicate very clearly that even though the believer will suffer loss of eternal reward, he WILL BE SAVED.

You believe though the foundation has gone, and the work is burnt up, something of value remains.

Yes, I do believe that. The "something of value" that remains is one's eternal salvation.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 12, 2018

BNR32FAN said:
“What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? can that faith save him?”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:14‬ ‭

Brother FG2 says James is saying can that faith save him from being a hypocrite.

No, I never said that. Please read my posts before making such mistakes.

I said that a faith WITH works/deeds will save him from being a hypocrite. Do you see the difference?

He claims James is not talking about salvation.

There is no mention of salvation. And James was writing to saved people.

This truly baffles me because anytime the word “saved” is mentioned in the Bible without reference to what someone is being saved from it is referring to salvation.

Well, this is just an opinion. Nothing to back it up.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 12, 2018

I asked:
"And where do you read that?"

This is just so typical of your side. You can't provide any evidence for your claims.

To say it's in the Bible is nothing other than a cop-out. As you well know.

If it was, you'd have at least provided a citation of where to find it. But you didn't.

BNR32FAN said:
What is your definition of follow?

How does this question have any relevance to what I asked? And how come you just don't answer my questions, and then expect me to answer all of yours?

My definition is follow Jesus’ teachings and example.

““Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:5-6‬

I agree.

Hence faith without works is dead and useless.

But you misunderstand this to mean it won't save one's sorry soul from hell.

In fact, a faith without works (evidence) is useless for demonstrating (showing) another person your faith.

Read 2:18 and you'll see that is exactly the point James was making.

But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds. Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds." NASB

I will note that a number of translations erroneously put the quote marks only around the first part, which is: "you have faith; I have deeds."

However, if the "someone" only says that, what follows doesn't make any sense if spoken by another person. It makes perfect sense for the "someone" to say the whole verse.

So, 2:18 indicates that the ONLY WAY for another person to see our faith is by what we do, or by our works/deeds.

The branch withers into a dead stick with no life in it.

Taking metaphors and figures of speech farther than intended is quite dangerous.

Salvation is not received by those who turn away, do not produce fruit (works), do not repent of sin, do not abide, do not remain, do not endure, do not follow (present tense), do not believe (present tense).

This statement is a clear indication that you don't even understand how to be saved.

How sad.

Here is a list of verses about how to have salvation/eternal life.

Salvation:

Mark 16:16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Acts 11:14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'

Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 10:9, 10 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Eternal Life:

John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

You gave me a "list" of how salvation is "not received". You're looking at it from the wrong direction. You need to look at it from the right direction. How to HAVE salvation.

And all of these verses tell us how salvation and eternal life is RECEIVED; by faith in Christ.

And you'll NEVER find ANY verse that tells us how salvation or eternal life can be taken away, because it CAN'T be.

Because Jesus SAID: I give them (believers) eternal life, and they shall never perish.

That ends all debate.

Those who continue to believe that salvation can be lost are simply arguing with the Savior. And He always wins.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 12, 2018

BNR32FAN said:
Luke 8:13 completely supports our interpretation of John 10:27. Those people did believe but they didn’t continue to believe.

But that doesn't have any relevance to John 10:27.

They didn’t abide, they didn’t continue to follow. Luke 8:13 specifically says they did believe and the result of their turning away was the same result in John 15:6.

Well, not quite. 10:27 has no metaphors of a farmer burning unproductive branches.

And Luke 8:13 says NOTHING about losing salvation. What they lost was their faith.

They withered and dried up resulting in death.

Again, if your warped misunderstanding of John 15:1-6 were correct, then Jesus COULDN'T HAVE SAID what He did in 10:28. Not possible.

I don’t see how Luke 8:13 can in any way support your interpretation of verse John 10:27. They did believe but they do not receive salvation.

You failed to explain HOW 8:13 is in any way related to 10:27. When will you provide one?

8:13 is about people who believed for a while and then fell away from their faith.

Please note that Luke did not mention salvation. Though he did in the previous verse.

Again, John 10:27 is a descriptive statement of WHAT Jesus' sheep (believers) do.

But this is a general description, because we KNOW that some don't continue to follow Jesus, from Luke 8:13.

Do you understand the difference between a FACTUAL statement and a POLICY statement?

Well, I'll give you a clear example, to help you grasp the concept better.

When coming out of a restroom in a restaurant there is a sign on the door that says:
Employees WILL wash their hands

Now, is that a statement of FACT (that every single employee DOES wash their hands) or is that a statement of POLICY of the restaurant?

I hope you have the sense to realize that the sign is NOT a statement of FACT but a statement of POLICY.

In the same way, John 10:27 is a statement of POLICY. iow, what believers are supposed to do; listen and follow Jesus.

But since my explanation and example refutes your theory, I don't expect a retraction from you any time soon.

But go ahead and engage with these 2 different statements and prove that 10:27 is a statement of FACT, in spite of Luke 8:13, which proves that v.27 CANNOT be a statement of fact, but rather is a statement of policy.

LightLoveHope · Oct 12, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
I find it rather instructive that you would say this right AFTER quoting 1 Cor 3:12-13.

You think the foundation can be lost. However, you failed to keep reading (a common problem among those of your ilk).

14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

Here is an easy to follow color coded explanation of these 2 verses:
The green words in v.14 refer to eternal reward for service.
In v.15, the red words refer to LOSS of reward because of lack of service or faulty service. The blue words indicate very clearly that even though the believer will suffer loss of eternal reward, he WILL BE SAVED.

Yes, I do believe that. The "something of value" that remains is one's eternal salvation.

"a common problem among those of your ilk"

I know exactly this point. What Paul is commenting on is if people build on the foundation, they will be saved, not if they dig up the foundations and dump it all.

And I have no clue if that is possible, because this is Paul talking about believers and though they fail and build badly, still the Lord will have mercy on them.

And maybe everyone who keeps the faith, no matter how badly is saved.
Maybe all the sheep who truly were converted, born again enter heaven.
I do not know and it simply does not bother me.

What does bother me is what you are doing as a result of these ideas.
Taking believers and disowning them, which is a total contradiction to your
whole moral reasoning. Oh these poor lost believers, still the Lord cares for
them, but you guys, are so evil, you will burn......
See the irony. You play on our love and openness and try and get the knife
in. But it does not work if we spot what you are doing. Bit like an own
goal. How can a loving, caring sheep betray his fellow brother and sisters
like this? Because he is not what he claims to be.

Our ministry is simple, love all, witness to the light and show the light Jesus
has planted in us. If you want to join, amen, if you want to destroy, we know
who you are. God bless you, and may His peace come to rule your life, Amen.

LightLoveHope · Oct 13, 2018

I was praying this morning about some believers who spend their time searching how to confront other believers with their legalistic error. This is not a bad aspiration.
It becomes a delusion when it becomes ones faith and all one does.

Jesus called us to be light in the darkness, love shinning in a place where there is no purpose or direction and people are empty without connection. And the light is our love, our sincere commited love of Jesus, love of life, love of others. It is always tempered by our knowledge of our own weaknesses and struggles, so as a meek servant we offer up what we can to those we meet.

And here lies the challenge, to walk in the light and not be distracted by attacks or issues outside of following Jesus.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 13, 2018

LightLoveHope said:
And maybe everyone who keeps the faith, no matter how badly is saved.

After all the outright clear and solid proof from Jesus' own words you still say "maybe"???

How is that trusting in Jesus?

Maybe all the sheep who truly were converted, born again enter heaven.
I do not know and it simply does not bother me.

This identifies 2 of your problems.
1. ignorance or simply disbelief of God's Word
2. lethargy regarding God's Word

What does bother me is what you are doing as a result of these ideas.

Yes, you are bothered by the truth. And that is quite odd.

Taking believers and disowning them, which is a total contradiction to your
whole moral reasoning.

Once again, you are making absolutely no sense.

I have never "taken believers". And I've never "disowned" any of them.

Oh these poor lost believers, still the Lord cares for
them, but you guys, are so evil, you will burn......
See the irony.

No, I see only great confusion in your thinking. Or maybe emotion. I can't tell the difference.

You play on our love and openness and try and get the knife in.

What in the world are you talking about?

But it does not work if we spot what you are doing.

Well, since I haven't EVER "taken believers", nor have I EVER "disowned them", nor have I tried to "get the knife in" (whatever that may mean), it seems you haven't yet spotted what I am doing. Which is defend the truth of Scripture. Which you clearly don't like.

Our ministry is simple, love all, witness to the light and show the light Jesus
has planted in us.

And yet, your ministry includes NOT believing what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life; that they shall never perish, because you don't believe that, from your emotional approach to the Bible.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 13, 2018

LightLoveHope said:
I was praying this morning about some believers who spend their time searching how to confront other believers with their legalistic error. This is not a bad aspiration.
It becomes a delusion when it becomes ones faith and all one does.

Jesus called us to be light in the darkness, love shinning in a place where there is no purpose or direction and people are empty without connection. And the light is our love, our sincere commited love of Jesus, love of life, love of others. It is always tempered by our knowledge of our own weaknesses and struggles, so as a meek servant we offer up what we can to those we meet.

And here lies the challenge, to walk in the light and not be distracted by attacks or issues outside of following Jesus.

What has been totally left out of your appeal here is knowledge; epignosis. It means full knowledge. Intimate knowledge, not just superficial head knowledge.

I've shown eternal security from very clear verses, and yet you still won't believe them, by your use of "maybe" in your previous post twice, no less.

All that you've written here is in the Bible. But you purposely leave out portions that you simply don't like because they offend your emotions.

LightLoveHope · Oct 13, 2018

Hi Free,

You have a problem. Are you aware of that?
You really think a belief in the magic wand of security, will transform my experience of Christ.
I have this security, but not like you describe.

Why do people want powerless security?
Imagine I face a dilemma. I am a fixed personality, apparently unable to change, no matter what is going on around me. So I struggle in faith for change, yet it seems powerless to work and I stay imprisoned and persecuted by my own conscience. Maybe I ignore this reality and compromise and pretend it is ok. A blow comes, I am shattered. I leave the faith.
Later I come out of the haze and return to the faith I had before. Except now a clearer revelation comes to me. I can stay as I am, it is ok. I got it wrong, I am secure as things are, no struggle, no trials, relief, exhilaration. But this is the point, it is security with no power or change.

This is not Jesus who I met or the gospel of life He brings. He brings resolution and transformation into His likeness through a walk, fellowship, love, repentance, grace, meekness, forgiveness, mercy and much more.

What I have described above is not my walk but the apparent walk of many caught
in a form of faith, where they believed yet it was a surface social faith. The revelation
that Christ loves them despite their state, is the first revelation of redemption.
The next is brokenness, and repentance. It is this that starts the work of transformation,
dying to the world and living to love and the Kingdom.

But without transformation it is all pointless. It is like a bucket full of dirty water knowing it could be clean, hearing the words of promise, claiming them, but never being cleansed and purified. There are many who live this life, on the edge of faith and love but never able to take the plunge and let go.

LightLoveHope · Oct 13, 2018

A side note. I have gone to church my whole life but yet not really part of a church.
I was not discipled or taught how I believe, the Lord taught me through life, preaching and His word. I do not have loyalty to a particular theology, though my heart is protestant, evangelical, charismatic. I support and love any who praise Jesus and His Lordship, listen and follow Him.
So it is not something someone has taught me, like a set of doctrines or views that I have just accepted, this is where my heart is and what my heart sings Praises to the my Lord Jesus Christ about.

I do get discouraged and wander in focus, but when I return it is like drinking the waters of life and I want to drink more and rejoice in the very essence of the Lord.

So when someone comes with their life and conviction, if it is less than the work the Lord has done within me and does not match His word, it is like dust in the wind. But I am always open and want to understand share and bless where I can to His glory. Amen

BNR32FAN · Oct 13, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
I find it rather instructive that you would say this right AFTER quoting 1 Cor 3:12-13.

You think the foundation can be lost. However, you failed to keep reading (a common problem among those of your ilk).

14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

Here is an easy to follow color coded explanation of these 2 verses:
The green words in v.14 refer to eternal reward for service.
In v.15, the red words refer to LOSS of reward because of lack of service or faulty service. The blue words indicate very clearly that even though the believer will suffer loss of eternal reward, he WILL BE SAVED.

Yes, I do believe that. The "something of value" that remains is one's eternal salvation.

But this passage is limited to those who are building on the foundation of Christ not someone who has turned away from Christ.

“According to the grace of God which was given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder I laid a foundation; and another buildeth thereon. But let each man take heed how he buildeth thereon. For other foundation can no man lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. But if any man buildeth on the foundation gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay, stubble; each man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it is revealed in fire; and the fire itself shall prove each man’s work of what sort it is. If any man’s work shall abide which he built thereon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as through fire.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3:10-15‬

BNR32FAN · Oct 13, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
I asked:
"And where do you read that?"

This is just so typical of your side. You can't provide any evidence for your claims.

To say it's in the Bible is nothing other than a cop-out. As you well know.

If it was, you'd have at least provided a citation of where to find it. But you didn't.

How does this question have any relevance to what I asked? And how come you just don't answer my questions, and then expect me to answer all of yours?

I agree.

But you misunderstand this to mean it won't save one's sorry soul from hell.

In fact, a faith without works (evidence) is useless for demonstrating (showing) another person your faith.

Read 2:18 and you'll see that is exactly the point James was making.

But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds. Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds." NASB

I will note that a number of translations erroneously put the quote marks only around the first part, which is: "you have faith; I have deeds."

However, if the "someone" only says that, what follows doesn't make any sense if spoken by another person. It makes perfect sense for the "someone" to say the whole verse.

So, 2:18 indicates that the ONLY WAY for another person to see our faith is by what we do, or by our works/deeds.

Taking metaphors and figures of speech farther than intended is quite dangerous.

This statement is a clear indication that you don't even understand how to be saved.

How sad.

Here is a list of verses about how to have salvation/eternal life.

Salvation:

Mark 16:16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Acts 11:14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'

Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 10:9, 10 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Eternal Life:

John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

You gave me a "list" of how salvation is "not received". You're looking at it from the wrong direction. You need to look at it from the right direction. How to HAVE salvation.

And all of these verses tell us how salvation and eternal life is RECEIVED; by faith in Christ.

And you'll NEVER find ANY verse that tells us how salvation or eternal life can be taken away, because it CAN'T be.

Because Jesus SAID: I give them (believers) eternal life, and they shall never perish.

That ends all debate.

Those who continue to believe that salvation can be lost are simply arguing with the Savior. And He always wins.

You quoted James 18 but he’s not finished with the message. Look at the context in verse 19 & 20.

“Yea, a man will say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith apart from thy works, and I by my works will show thee my faith. Thou believest that God is one; thou doest well: the demons also believe, and shudder. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith apart from works is barren?”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:18-20‬

James is not saying faith without works appears to be useless he says that it is useless and barren. That’s why he uses the example that even demons believe but that doesn’t save them. The demons fell from heaven because of their disobedience. They turned away from God and we’re eternally punished for it. That’s why James uses them as an example. Throughout verses 14-26 James’ message is continuously speaking about loss of salvation. That is why he started the subject in verse 14 with the question can that faith save him. He’s giving evidence that faith without works is not a saving faith. The demons were not kicked out of heaven for not appearing to have faith. They were kicked out for disobeying God and our fate will be the same if we also continue to disobey Him.

BNR32FAN · Oct 13, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Taking metaphors and figures of speech farther than intended is quite dangerous.

Ignoring them is also dangerous. Will I be condemned for my obedience to His Word or am I more likely to be condemned for disobedience? Simply believing without becoming a new creation, changing your life to serve God, and continuing to live the same sinful lifestyle will not result in salvation. A person living that kind of life does not have Christ in them. They think they have an easy ticket to heaven because they fail to understand the full message. Usually because they don’t desire to change their life. They desire to live the way they want not the way God wants. They still enjoy living in sin and don’t care enough about God to give up what they love so much. They love sin more than they love God. My brother has that problem and has even said well if God can’t accept me for who I am then I guess I’m going to hell then. He claims he believes but he still curses like crazy, always gets drunk, smokes marijuana, always lusting after other women even tho he’s married, is very hateful at times and quick to result to violence, he’s prideful and cannot endure even the smallest amount of disrespect. He’s even persecuted me when I tried to correct him by quoting the scriptures. I worry for him and keep praying that he will learn the truth before it’s too late. He believes that all he must do is believe that Jesus died for his sins and he will still be saved but there is no evidence of the Holy Spirit working in him. God please help him.

LightLoveHope · Oct 13, 2018

BNR32FAN said:
Ignoring them is also dangerous. Will I be condemned for my obedience to His Word or am I more likely to be condemned for disobedience? Simply believing without becoming a new creation, changing your life to serve God, and continuing to live the same sinful lifestyle will not result in salvation. A person living that kind of life does not have Christ in them. They think they have an easy ticket to heaven because they fail to understand the full message. Usually because they don’t desire to change their life. They desire to live the way they want not the way God wants. They still enjoy living in sin and don’t care enough about God to give up what they love so much. They love sin more than they love God. My brother has that problem and has even said well if God can’t accept me for who I am then I guess I’m going to hell then. He claims he believes but he still curses like crazy, always gets drunk, smokes marijuana, always lusting after other women even tho he’s married, is very hateful at times and quick to result to violence, he’s prideful and cannot endure even the smallest amount of disrespect. He’s even persecuted me when I tried to correct him by quoting the scriptures. I worry for him and keep praying that he will learn the truth before it’s too late. He believes that all he must do is believe that Jesus died for his sins and he will still be saved but there is no evidence of the Holy Spirit working in him. God please help him.

The description of your brother reminds me of how I felt when I went to church as a youngster. I had a feeling that God was there, but I just needed to do enough and it was ok.
I was performing something, that I did not understand, like a magic formula, and that was enough.

Looking back at this I now see the problem. We are the product of our situation and circumstance. We see ourselves as immovable, because we try to do things, and how we react is out of our control. It is like we are slaves to things around us, though we do aspire to better things, nothing seems to work out. The feeling is this is us, take it or leave it.

It takes a big step to see, Jesus is saying I can set the prison free, that this situation is not who we are, but who we are in the world. And the first step is to become like a child, humble oneself and admit it is all a total mess, without hope.

This is hard because the world says you are a failure to do this, because there is no way back giving up on who one is. But the fantastic reality is, Jesus is saying He will build a new man inside us, and bring us into life, His life, which will go on for eternity. And we know this is true because it has happened to us who have walked this road, Amen.

Dear brother, I fear equally for your brother. I have a similar brother, though there is some stirring in his life. God bless you.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 13, 2018

LightLoveHope said:
Hi Free,
You have a problem. Are you aware of that?
You really think a belief in the magic wand of security, will transform my experience of Christ.

You've just pointed out where the problem lies. With you. For describing eternal security as a "magic wand". That is worse than dumb.

I have this security, but not like you describe.

I've described eternal security the way Jesus did: recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

How do you describe this security that you claim to have?

Why do people want powerless security?

What in the world are you babbling about? Who says (beyond you) that the believer's security is "powerless"? What kind of nonsense is that?

The power of the believer's security is nothing less than the POWER of the words of Jesus. Is that not enough for you? What is missing from THAT security?

Imagine I face a dilemma. I am a fixed personality, apparently unable to change, no matter what is going on around me.

I'm going to stop right here. This so-called dilemma that you describe doesn't exist. Your premise is phony.

What I have described above is not my walk but the apparent walk of many caught in a form of faith, where they believed yet it was a surface social faith. The revelation that Christ loves them despite their state, is the first revelation of redemption.
The next is brokenness, and repentance. It is this that starts the work of transformation,
dying to the world and living to love and the Kingdom.

What you have described is utter nonsense. Not even close to reality.

But without transformation it is all pointless.

At the moment of faith in Christ, the believer IS transformed into:
1. a child of God John 1:12
2. a new creation 2 Cor 5:17
3. given eternal life John 10:28

The only thing left to BE changed is the lifestyle of the new believer, which only occurs WHEN the new believer gets and stays in God's Word regularly, and begins to grow up spiritually. Which ONLY occurs WHEN the person regularly confesses their sins (1 Jn 1:9) which restores fellowship with God, and is filled with the Holy Spirit (Eph 5;18) and by this, does NOT either grieve (Eph 4:30) or quench (1 Thess 5:19) the Holy Spirit.

This is the transformation that is potential, and NOT GUARANTEED for any believer. It requires choices to make.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 13, 2018

LightLoveHope said:
A side note. I have gone to church my whole life but yet not really part of a church.
I was not discipled or taught how I believe

That is the job of the pastor, so your pastor gets an F for effort.

the Lord taught me through life, preaching and His word.

Why do you still not believe what He teaches?

[QUTOE] I do not have loyalty to a particular theology, though my heart is protestant, evangelical, charismatic.[/QUOTE]
You should be loyal to biblical theology, which you don't. And your admission to being charismatic affirms my claim that you are driven by emotions.

I support and love any who praise Jesus and His Lordship, listen and follow Him.

I love and praise the Lord Jesus Christ, and yet you have shown none of that towards me.

So it is not something someone has taught me, like a set of doctrines or views that I have just accepted, this is where my heart is and what my heart sings Praises to the my Lord Jesus Christ about.

I've shown you biblical doctrine which you've not believed.

2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

He’s a Way of life

He’s a Way of life

He’s a Way of life

Jesus leads us to life

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Jesus leads us to life

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Jesus leads us to life

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Jesus leads us to life

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