2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

LightLoveHope · Oct 11, 2018

I have a simple question.
A brother says, I am the authority on scripture. I know the truth.
Do not listen to Jesus, it does not apply to you.

Of what value is it discussing interpretation with such as these?
They will claim the Holy Spirit, and everything else, but Jesus simply
says they are not my sheep. It becomes quite simple from then on.

BNR32FAN · Oct 11, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
And you choose to disbelieve these warnings. Well, they occurred.

When did I say I disbelieve these warnings? Now your just putting words in my mouth. Don’t you believe that Jesus’ church will prevail over the gates of hell? Nowhere does the Bible say the majority of the church will fall away.

LightLoveHope · Oct 11, 2018

BNR32FAN said:
There’s still hope for them. They need prayers.

Amen. God bless you.

BNR32FAN · Oct 11, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Don't you understand that there was no such thing as a unified "Christianity" after the 1st Century? Romanism totally perverted the gospel and added works to faith for salvation and even sold "indulgences".

Rome was not in control of the church and was faithful to the gospel until the 6th century.

Actually I need to reiterate on that but I don’t have time right now.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 11, 2018

LightLoveHope said:
I listened to a lecture on the accuracy of scripture. It turns out we have so much early church documentation and commentaries, you could reconstruct the bible from the commentaries and quotes. The difficulty is there are simply not enough scholars to handle the material.

Within all that documentation and commentaries, we learn that very many of these "early church fathers" failed to understand or even accept the clear principle of grace; that salvation cannot be earned nor deserved. That is why there is no action that man can do to have salvation, nor any action that man can do to lose salvation.

And what we are not doing, is confessing our sins to each other.

1 John 1:9 isn't about confessing to each other. It's confessing before God, who ALONE forgives and cleanses/purifies us. Just read all of 1 John 1 and count the times John mentions "fellowship". 4 That's HOW the believer has fellowship with God; through confession of sin.

James spoke of confession to each other when we offend others. That was not for the forgiveness that God gives and cleanses us from.

If anything we are no way sincere enough about our failings and dealing with them. So a group who want to go even further into ignoring sin and being reprobate and anarchistic, they are the corrupting influence on the faith. Ironic those that want to claim corruption are the corrupters.[/QUOTE]

FreeGrace2 · Oct 11, 2018

BNR32FAN said:
So they sold everything they owned because they didn’t believe?

Did you not ever read the account in Acts 5? Sure seems so. I am repeatedly amazed by your lack of knowledge regarding the Bible.

They LIED to the Holy Spirit about the amount they received from the sale of their property and told Peter they got less than they did.

They wanted everyone to think they gave all they got for the land, but they held some back. And they suffered the discipline called the "sin unto death" for it. 1 John 5:16

FreeGrace2 · Oct 11, 2018

BNR32FAN said:
No I completely agree with this. His sheep undoubtedly do follow but they follow (abide) until the end not just for a little while.

And where do you read that?

FreeGrace2 · Oct 11, 2018

LightLoveHope said:
Oh no. You say you have a doctorate. This is worse than I thought.

Well, this is interesting. One of your posts seemed to insinuate that I had no training in college. Now you say this "is worse than" you thought. Seems I can't win, huh.

Kinda like the Republicans in front of Dems.

What was your discipline?

Let's not get into the weeds here, ok? This is totally irrelevant. What is your height and weight? lol

By the way you are not believing what it is plainly saying.

That is exactly what the far left Dems do. Transfer their own sins on the Republicans.

It's YOU who does not believe what John 10:28 plainly says: recipients of eternal life (which is WHEN they believe from John 5:24, 6:47 and 1 John 5:13) shall NEVER PERISH.

Yet, you always include conditions to be met in order for recipients of eternal life to never perish.

Jesus's sheep listen to Him, follow Him and know Him.

Yes, Jesus described WHAT His sheep DO, not HOW to become sheep.

Have you ever gone up to a dog that does not know you and
tried to tell it what to do? It will just run away.

Totally irrelevant to this discussion.

You have said Jesus's sheep can ignore Him, rebel against Him, and
go their own way. That is not what it says. It simply says the sheep
of Jesus listen to Him, follow Him and know Him.

Where did I ever say any of this?

When I read the sermon on the mount my heart rejoiced. No matter
how difficult I want to follow this guy and understand His words.

Very nice. But why don't you believe what Jesus said in John 10:28.

Does not sound like this is you? And surprisingly we do not agree.
The great thing about this, it is your loss not mine.

What is my "loss", exactly? I have no idea what you are insinuating.

I had a long conversation with a guy who denied the sermon on the
mount applied to believers. Funnily this meant he was not a sheep.
So I hope you are a sheep, but your fruit will tell me......God bless

Since we don't know each other and will probably never meet this side of eternity, you'll never see my fruit.

But I'm curious. You judge someone of not being a sheep of Jesus because he misunderstood who the sermon on the mount was for.

But you don't even believe the clear words of John 10:28 about recipients of eternal life.

Are YOU a sheep, since you don't believe what Jesus IN VERY PLAIN WORDS said?

Wouldn't seem so, according to your logic and judgment of others.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 11, 2018

BNR32FAN said:
What verses say they infiltrate the church. If I’m not mistaken the verses you quoted said they left the church not infiltrated.

Well, not it's real clear that you DON'T read my posts. Explains a lot.

Acts 20:29 - I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock.

2 Tim 4:3,4
3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers (savate wolves) to say what their itching ears want to hear.
4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 11, 2018

BNR32FAN said:
Rome was not in control of the church and was faithful to the gospel until the 6th century.

Actually I need to reiterate on that but I don’t have time right now.

No need. Wrong again. Rome was selling indulgences by the 2nd Century.

This from Wikipedia:
Indulgences were introduced to allow for the remission of the severe penances of the early Church and granted at the intercession of Christians awaiting martyrdom or at least imprisoned for the faith.[3] They draw on the treasury of meritaccumulated by Christ's superabundantly meritorious sacrifice on the cross and the virtues and penances of the saints.[4]They are granted for specific good works and prayers[4] in proportion to the devotion with which those good works are performed or prayers recited.[5]

You tell me WHEN was the "early church".

FreeGrace2 · Oct 11, 2018

BNR32FAN said:
When did I say I disbelieve these warnings? Now your just putting words in my mouth. Don’t you believe that Jesus’ church will prevail over the gates of hell? Nowhere does the Bible say the majority of the church will fall away.

Are you not aware of 1 Tim 4:1?

BNR32FAN · Oct 11, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Did you not ever read the account in Acts 5? Sure seems so. I am repeatedly amazed by your lack of knowledge regarding the Bible.

They LIED to the Holy Spirit about the amount they received from the sale of their property and told Peter they got less than they did.

They wanted everyone to think they gave all they got for the land, but they held some back. And they suffered the discipline called the "sin unto death" for it. 1 John 5:16

I was going by memory on that one because I didn’t have time to double check I thought they sold everything they had not just a property. Im sorry that was my mistake.

LightLoveHope · Oct 11, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
You judge someone of not being a sheep of Jesus because he misunderstood who the sermon on the mount was for.

Your manner suggests to me you see me as your opponent.
If you listen to Jesus and follow Him like I do, there is something in you that is steering your approach. I am happy to have fellowship with brothers or sisters in Christ.
Do you believe we should listen to all Jesus's words and obey them, including the sermon on the mount?

I ask this because listening to Jesus, I need to know if you are a sheep or not?
Your approach suggests to me you do not believe you are a sheep.

I judge no one, it is Jesus's words that judge people.

As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.
John 12:47-48

LightLoveHope · Oct 11, 2018

encouraging or condemning

He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.
For there are many rebellious people, mere talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision group.
They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach--and that for the sake of dishonest gain.
Titus 1:9-11

The above is blunt. There is pure rebellion about not obeying Jesus and staying in sin, and simply not confronting individuals who desire to stay part of a fellowship yet live in sin. For me it is shocking people are teaching to ignore Jesus. They should be silenced
simply because Jesus himself says they are wrong and doomed to destruction.

The argument put forward is this is too condemning. But putting it simply, this is love,
holiness and purity. We are a holy people called to live righteous lives. Amen

FreeGrace2 · Oct 11, 2018

LightLoveHope said:
Your manner suggests to me you see me as your opponent.

I've been very straightforward with you. When you state error, I correct the error. My manner is straightforward. Some may call it blunt, but my concern is only for truth, which I find lacking in your posts regarding John 10:28, which you've made clear you don't believe those very clear and plain words about recipients of eternal life never perishing.

Why do you insist there are conditions for recipients to meet when Jesus gave NONE?

If you listen to Jesus and follow Him like I do, there is something in you that is steering your approach.

I cannot believe that you actually "listen and follow Jesus" as you claim, because you insist on inserting conditions for recipients of eternal life to meet when Jesus gave NONE.

I am happy to have fellowship with brothers or sisters in Christ.

There can be no fellowship when one believer only claims to listen and follow Christ but then out of the other side of their mouth don't believe what Jesus said.

Do you believe we should listen to all Jesus's words and obey them, including the sermon on the mount?

Of course I do.

I ask this because listening to Jesus, I need to know if you are a sheep or not?

I have believed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God (John 20:31) and that He died for my sins (1 Cor 15:3) and gives me eternal life (John 10:28) and as a result:
1. currently possess eternal life (Johbn 5:24)
2. WILL NOT be condemned (John 5:24)
3. have passed from (spiritual) death to (eternal) life (John 5:24
4. shall NEVER perish (John 10:28)

Therefore, I AM a sheep of Jesus. Do I follow Him perfectly? No. And neither do you.

But at least I DO believe everything He said, and not just some things and reject others, as you've made clear that you do.

Your approach suggests to me you do not believe you are a sheep.

You must be delusional then.

I judge no one, it is Jesus's words that judge people.

And the FACT that you don't believe His words in John 10:28 is quite telling about your own status as a sheep.

BNR32FAN · Oct 11, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
And where do you read that?

It’s in the Bible

LightLoveHope · Oct 11, 2018

My friend "free", I am just quoting Jesus.
I have to thank you for showing me John 28:27-28
It encourages my heart to know He knows me, and He knows we listen to Him and follow Him. As you seem to not be in agreement with me I know you do not.

Jesus tells me you will never listen to me, so God bless you, I wish you well, but I cannot really say anymore

BNR32FAN · Oct 11, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Well, not it's real clear that you DON'T read my posts. Explains a lot.

Acts 20:29 - I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock.

2 Tim 4:3,4
3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers (savate wolves) to say what their itching ears want to hear.
4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

Ok but we’re talking about all the churches here. They were all overtaken by apostasy? Because they all agreed on doctrine.

BNR32FAN · Oct 11, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Are you not aware of 1 Tim 4:1?

Where does it say the majority of the church will fall away in 1 Timothy 4:1? I can’t seem to find it.

BNR32FAN · Oct 11, 2018

LightLoveHope said:
My friend "free", I am just quoting Jesus.
I have to thank you for showing me John 28:27-28
It encourages my heart to know He knows me, and He knows we listen to Him and follow Him. As you seem to not be in agreement with me I know you do not.

Jesus tells me you will never listen to me, so God bless you, I wish you well, but I cannot really say anymore

You planted plenty of seeds brother. That’s all we can do. I’m sure God is pleased. Perhaps over time they will grow.

2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

Jesus leads us to life

He’s a Way of life

Jesus leads us to life

He’s a Way of life

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