2 Questions

stranger · Oct 8, 2007

Kristos said:
Awefully long answer for a simple question. So basically, you are saying the God could not redeem the world with out creation of "evil'?

It's a long answer because so many people do not understand it ,and believe otherwise ... you did not offer a reason for asking it ...

But you are very much mistaken, I am not saying anything, simply showing you the scriptures of God which say this to see if you agree that this is what they are saying...

squint · Oct 8, 2007

stranger said:
Exactly, God created it all, light and darkness... the light succeeds in convincing all creation to love through Jesus Christ, the darkness though first convices all the world [a a very few God needs

God is not in "need."

as priests afterward to redeem th rest] that sin is the best way of life, and glorfies God by failing, showing god is not only right , but that no other way is right...

Thus God needs both Jesus and Satan to prove to craetion that He isthe only god, the one true God of all...

God is not in need nor does He need. God does not "need" any-thing.

And if He failed to save all creation He would show He was not the one true god at all but that there was a basis for following Satan eternally ... clearly that cannot happen , God cannot not be God...

All creation then, including created Satan, must be saved in the end else God has failed to show that He is God ..

Patent baloney. Satan is a temporal tool. When God is finished using it, it will be put away forever like a common garden tool in the infamous Lake, just as scriptures present.

and indeed Jesus says that all will accept him as lord , so obeyting him in love to God and all men , and so be saved :-

There is no scripture stating Satan will "love" God or be saved and many to the contrary.

Revelation 5:13 And, every created thing which was in heaven, and upon the earth, and under the earth, and upon the sea, and, all the things in them, heard I, sayingUnto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb, be the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the dominion, unto the ages of ages!

Death is a power that will not be changed, but eradicated. Many things are specifically set for eternal destruction. This present earth for example, so there are specific scriptural exceptions to that statement.

God has both the will and the ability to save all men to the spirit, he just never has said that he will do it in this earth, quite the contrary. only few find the narrow strait way required of saints in this earth and the many are saved later [Rev 7:9-10]

All mankind are Gods offspring. There will be no "party in heaven for just you and the few" whilst the balance of your fellow man are set aside. That is another "universalist fantasy" designed by the clergy thereof to keep you coming.

Who can withsatnd the will of God to save all men, no-one , He has the means simply by being right and allowing all craetion to come to see that ...

Isaiah 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

God has only to let men see that sin fails them and they will look to |Him in his ever-enduring mercy... it is not that hard for God to give Satan enough rope to hang himself, to give him the whole world to control and then show that His truth takes everyone back, proving that Satan is not the god of men at all [2Thess 2:4] ... so men must put up with Satan for lord for a while, trapped in sin until death releases them ... it is important than that God does this first , because it is only Satan who prevents men seeing God's truth ... living by love, not dying because of sin...

The entire plan was set in great detail long before it came to be. Satanic salvation was never in the plan.

The resistor was made to be tossed away like the pathetic sockpuppet it is.

enjoy!

squint

armothe · Oct 8, 2007

stranger said:
I have never suggested that God can sin, where did you get that idea from ???

Your translation of the word 'evil' as 'wickedness' in the Isaiah 45 passage has the verse stating:

"'The One... causing wickedness...I am the Lord who does all these things"

Wickedness is sin. By translating the above as wickedness instead of using calamity makes God the cause of wickedness/sin.

-A

stranger · Oct 8, 2007

squint said:
God is not in "need."
God is not in need nor does He need. God does not "need" any-thing.

I never said that God had a need , you made that up my friend... Sadly however we do not have a different set of words for things about God in English, so if you take things literally you will certainly misunderstand both me and the scriptures , God is not a man , nor like a man, men are like God in having the deepest respect for love , but the world robs us of manifesting it...

One can however see that the creation is a necessity , one could view it analagously as God showing through love that He is right and showing through failure of evil that He is not wrong , that there is no other way than love... but it is only fallible words, yoy can either pick them apart easily , or look for the meaning in them ... they are only words , and words which evolvved in THIS world , about this world, not in description of God... it would be surprising then if anyone could understand about God from our specialised words of this world, and indeed the scripture explains why so few do understand Him :-

1 Corinthians 2:14 [KJV]But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Corinthians 2:14 [Rotherham] But, a man of the soul, doth not welcome the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto him, and he cannot get to know them, because, spiritually, are they examined;

Patent baloney. Satan is a temporal tool. When God is finished using it, it will be put away forever like a common garden tool in the infamous Lake, just as scriptures present.

Please stop being so rude , If you have no desire to discuss without disrespect then please go somewhere else because there is no place for it here and you have agreed to treat other's words with respect in coming here, please honour that commitment or leave...

Satan is indeed the created tool of God, as is mankind , as are the angels, but He could not be the God of love if He simply disposed of them when it was finished ... if you took the triouble to look at what your beliefs in this matter are based upon, instead of relying on the dubious translation of one word 'aion' in Greek, 'olam' in Hebrew , then you would change your mind about who to believe, the original authors of the scripture , or the somewhat biased translators of it ...

The word 'aion' is where we get the 'aeon' from, it means and age , not an infinite time , but just a long finite time ... Thus the 'ages of the sges' menas what it says, a finite sequence of ages to the end of time...

The truth established by obseravtion and deduction in Physics is that what we call time is neither fixed nor infinite , not even the same for everyone, but just very closely so... most men then think that they know what time is, but it can be shown quite straightforwardly and exactly that the common view of time, as assumed by Newton, and infinite stream of past and future, just isn't possible ...

Time was then created at the creatio of space, they are one thing, inseparable, time is a phenomenon of space , not independent of it ... time will thus also end when God destroys the universe and creates a new heavens and earth... it seems that time will exist finitely in the new universe too, but this time men will come to live righteously, not in sin ... thus God saves a few as priests and kings from this earth only to have them ready , it does not mean they are the only ones saved, just the firts of many, indeed their role is specifically as priests and kings , to rule perfectly and misister perfectly in the new earth to billions resurrected at the second resurrection...

But anyway Satan also is resurrected and set loose in the new earth kingdom to trial men as he did in this earth , God's tool is still of use to God in the new earth :-

Revelation 20:3 and cast him into the abyss, and fastened and sealed it over him,that he might not deceive the nations any more, until the thousand years, should be ended: after these, must he be loosed for a short time.

Why would God use Satan to perfect the love of the many in the new earth if they were condemned for sins in this earth, the scripture says if men turn from evil then they will live for their righteousness, not be condemned for past sins [Ezek 18:21]

God also says the trial by fire is PRECIOUS because it perfects love, so that is the purpose of the lake of fire , a loving purpose by a loving God ... and who is being perfected in it, Satan and the most evil men of all time , but god has removed those less evil, there is no-one left to prey upon, to benefit from, they all make their own lives a misery, it is not hard to seewhy God's plan works once He has removed the vulnerable, the simple, those easily preyed upon... evil is seen not to benefit the evil any more when those whom they preyed upon are not available and they just get preyed upon themselves... God's mercy extends to the ned of time, it does not end with the lake of fire ... but there is no more way out in death, and no hell any more, this is the final trial of evil and love to see which one these evil men and Satan accept in the end...

Inevitably satan's suppost dwindles to nothing, and he sees he is no god at all, and returns to do homage to Jesus and the Father as the prodigal son of God... just as Jesus says ALL created things will fo himage to him as their Lord, obeying his command to love God and love others...

So please read this scripture this time, read what it says in Jesus' own mouth , I canot seriously post it again and have you ignore that it does show that Satan, as a created being will accept Jesus as Lord, all that is required to be saved, redeemed to spirit :-

Revelation 5:13 And, every created thing which was in heaven, and upon the earth, and under the earth, and upon the sea, and, all the things in them, heard I, sayingUnto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb, be the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the dominion, unto the ages of ages!

You hasve been misled by the poor translations we have of scripture... just do the work and recover the original meaning of 'aion' , the clue is in our usage of the word 'aeon', an age, a long ,but finite, period of time ...

Death is a power that will not be changed, but eradicated. Many things are specifically set for eternal destruction. This present earth for example, so there are specific scriptural exceptions to that statement.

The universe was apparently created from nothing at all ... its energy and eventually matter and people, borrowed from the gravity which we observe as a force ... so there is no problem with God's detroying every 'thing' that is matter or energy , they simply return to the nothing they came from... and God can create a new earth and destroy it the same way , this time making it righteous, loving, and saving many instead of just the few [saints at death , not sinners at death] who found the strait narow way in this earth , as He explaisn in scripture, first the few [Rev 7:3-8 sealed into sainthood by grace, departing iniquity through spirit baptism] then the many [Rev 7:9-10] by works in the righteous new earth when hell gives up ALL its dead , even the dead Satan :-

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, and, death and hades, gave up the dead that were in them; and they were judged, each one, according to their works

I do not see how you ignore all this scripture, on what basis do you dod so ?

All mankind are Gods offspring. There will be no "party in heaven for just you and the few" whilst the balance of your fellow man are set aside. That is another "universalist fantasy" designed by the clergy thereof to keep you coming.

You are contradicting yourself, universalists , of which I am not one , believe as I do, that all men must be saved if God is to show himself loving, so everyone joins in glorying God, not just the few who are first because God requires the priests and kings at the beginning, not part wya through setting up the righteous kingdom on earth for all men

As for filling pews in churches and raking money out of people who blindly follow sinner priesthoods of this earth, being badgered into saying they believe creeds devised by men under thraets of terrible ends if the y donn't, when they have NOT been baptised to know all truth in this life as promised by jesus [John 16:13], I think that you will find that universalists are a tiny church , and that they have made many mistakes by not reproving from all the non-scriptural mistakes in christian doctrines...

How could universalists believe they were the few saved, please think before writing, universalists central belief is that everone is saved !

Perhaps you will look at the meaning of the original words now you see that you can make mistakes , and set the record straight about what the original scripture says about what men call eternity.... there simply is no evidence in scripture or the world for infinite time... it is then a misub=nderstanding of the past that became a mistranslation that has led a billion men astray from God's truth...

stranger · Oct 8, 2007

armothe said:
Your translation of the word 'evil' as 'wickedness' in the Isaiah 45 passage has the verse stating:

"'The One... causing wickedness...I am the Lord who does all these things"

Wickedness is sin. By translating the above as wickedness instead of using calamity makes God the cause of wickedness/sin.

-A

It makes no difference my friend... wickedness is only wicked because it causes hurt and calamity [usually in other people, so the wicked mostly ignore it because they imagine that they gain from other people' loss through their sin ]

It makes no differenece how one translates it [so long as one does not misrepresent the sense of it] , translation is NEVER perfect ...

what matters is the statement by God that the good and evil of this world are both created by Him for His purpose apparent here...

that God is NOT even aiming at avoiding suffering , He even chastens His sainst and pure Jesus to perfect their love, men who suffer unjustly then , for sake of love, for sake of God...

Why is God not evil then for bringing suffering on all men, even Jesus,? ... because He does it to show that he is right about love, that it is the only way out of mortality to perfect love... to become spirit and be free of death completely then one must suffer, whether now or later, one must also stop sinning and love instead of all sin...

This is God's truth in scripture, it is not taught in 'christian' churches for obvious reasons, they would be emmpty and make no money for the sinner priests to get overweight off as the poor continue to die every day by the tens of thousands ... well God allows this evil religion to exist for a while [Rev 13:3-8] ,Satan's rather crude mockery of a christ figure and the false goispel of redemption of sinners as sinners with no more effort required than to put money in the box every Sunday..

God on the other hand does tell us that sinners cannot be taken by Jesus at his return despite what sinners teach, and that all those who truly name Jesus Christ are sealed into deoparting from all sin, becoming saints durig their life, ceasing to be sinners after spirit baptism...

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Matthew 7:23 And then will I[Jesus] profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

For all the soothsayings of sinners dressed up in churches and all the bimpressive regalia nd rituals, the task of those who jesus will actually take first is to depart from sin, not to believe in what sinners teach in churches...but to believe what the saints above teach and God teaches them in spirit baptism promised to them all by Jesus [John 16:13]

armothe · Oct 9, 2007

stranger said:
Why is God not evil then for bringing suffering on all men, even Jesus,? ... because He does it to show that he is right about love,

That's right, but God causing suffering is not sin. There is a difference - and this difference is relevant to the original question.

Did God create evil?

If you are talking about sufferings, calamities, ill-fortunes then yes, God created evil.

If you are talking about evil in the sense of sin and wickedness then no, mankind brought that about on their own due to their ability to make their own choices and either external or internal temptations.

When you say "all evil" is created by God - that includes wickedness & sin - which makes it an untrue statement because God does not create wickedness & sin.

-A

squint · Oct 9, 2007

stranger said:
I never said that God had a need , you made that up my friend...

Well, you could go back and actually READ what you wrote....you said it twice in the post I responded to, that God NEEDS or NEEDED....and that is assuredly NOT the case now is it???

Sadly however we do not have a different set of words for things about God in English, so if you take things literally you will certainly misunderstand both me and the scriptures , God is not a man , nor like a man, men are like God in having the deepest respect for love , but the world robs us of manifesting it...

And you can launch into some long and ridiculous diatribe on the matter, but the fact is YOU presented that God NEEDED to "do" (X...) and I pointed out that God is not in "need" nor does He "need" to do "anything."

One can however see that the creation is a necessity , one could view it analagously as God showing through love that He is right and showing through failure of evil that He is not wrong ,

And again, you are presenting that God "needed" to "create." God does not NEED to do anything. When a "necessity" is placed as something God MUST do, then you again have created a God who is "impelled" by what HE MUST do, when that is simply NOT the case.

IF God does "anything" He does not do so out of "need" or "needing" to do same.

that there is no other way than love... but it is only fallible words, yoy can either pick them apart easily , or look for the meaning in them ... they are only words , and words which evolvved in THIS world , about this world, not in description of God...

Sorry kid. The presentation of a NEEDY GOD is not in the cards of Sovereignty.

it would be surprising then if anyone could understand about God from our specialised words of this world, and indeed the scripture explains why so few do understand Him :-

I will not be understanding of anyone or anything who presents a "needy" God. Needy (gods) are made up (gods) by "needy" people.

1 Corinthians 2:14 [KJV]But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Well, there is scripture, and THEN there is what is reflected "in" people by those same scriptures eh?

Please stop being so rude ,

Ah, you don't like it when your religious positions are questioned eh? Well, that's a reflection as well isn't it?

If you have no desire to discuss without disrespect then please go somewhere else because there is no place for it here and you have agreed to treat other's words with respect in coming here, please honour that commitment or leave...

Well, the fact that you have DODGED a point made to you A FEW TIMES now about there not being ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE that presents "specifically" SATANIC SALVATION, I can certainly understand your "offense" can't I???

Satan is indeed the created tool of God, as is mankind , as are the angels, but He could not be the God of love if He simply disposed of them when it was finished ...

We can come back to "mankind" as a created tool later, but that presentation is also quite FALSE.

And why CAN'T God put THE DEVIL away PERMANENTLY??? Because that doesn't conform with some pollyanna view of "love" that you have in your own head???

We certainly have a superabundance of SCRIPTURE that does present the putting away of EVIL which is of course OF THE DEVIL. So you can "ascribe" that TOOL as being a TOOL but you INSIST that TOOL must be SAVED??? lol

if you took the triouble to look at what your beliefs in this matter are based upon, instead of relying on the dubious translation of one word 'aion' in Greek, 'olam' in Hebrew , then you would change your mind about who to believe,

Don't try that absurdity on me. I believe that ALL mankind are SAVED and all devilkind are going to the pits of the Lake of Fire....AND both "fates" will be PERMANENT...

So what's your BEEF?

the original authors of the scripture , or the somewhat biased translators of it ...

People who gripe about "original authors" usually want to be their "own" authors of scripture "rather than" what we have. The "eternal damnation" scriptures ARE that...sin, evil and death will not be getting a "for the ages" reprieve and then a "change" at the end. Those things are taking an ETERNAL bye bye...

The word 'aion' is where we get the 'aeon' from, it means and age , not an infinite time , but just a long finite time ... Thus the 'ages of the sges' menas what it says, a finite sequence of ages to the end of time...

Not so, but that is what the "clergy" of "christian universalism" is feeding the masses presently, and that presentation is provably and patently FALSE.

For example, we KNOW that "death" is A POWER, and DEATH will NOT be any longer. Death will not be CHANGED...but ERADICTATED...so welcome to your first (ages of the ages) EXCEPTION....

Same with this present world...it will be NO LONGER. It will not be "recycled" and "reconstituted" into some other thing, but utterly destroyed by FIRE forever...

So you already have a couple of obvious exceptions to the rule.

The truth established by obseravtion and deduction in Physics is that what we call time is neither fixed nor infinite , not even the same for everyone, but just very closely so... most men then think that they know what time is, but it can be shown quite straightforwardly and exactly that the common view of time, as assumed by Newton, and infinite stream of past and future, just isn't possible ...

And whatever that has to do with this conversation is only known to you.

Time was then created at the creatio of space, they are one thing, inseparable, time is a phenomenon of space , not independent of it ... time will thus also end when God destroys the universe and creates a new heavens and earth...

Well well. And here I thought you were saying it was only for "an age or two?" You mean there actually is PERMANENT DESTRUCTION??? Imagine that???

it seems that time will exist finitely in the new universe too, but this time men will come to live righteously, not in sin ...

Oh? What gives you this idea?

thus God saves a few as priests and kings from this earth only to have them ready , it does not mean they are the only ones saved, just the firts of many, indeed their role is specifically as priests and kings , to rule perfectly and misister perfectly in the new earth to billions resurrected at the second resurrection...

What makes you so sure that those same "billions" won't be in the "first" resurrection?

Christian Universalist "clergy" are STILL just as their counterparts, SELLING the "YOU GET YOUR REWARD" and the "OTHER NON-BEE-LIEVERS" arrive "later" story...

Sorry, I'm not patting myself on the back in that fashion.

But anyway Satan also is resurrected

Uh, NO, Satan is NOT "resurrected" but is "let loose" from his prison prior to utter destruction.

Rev. 20
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

and set loose in the new earth kingdom to trial men as he did in this earth , God's tool is still of use to God in the new earth :-

Uh, NO, if you bothered to read the account "after" his loosing, you will find the devouring and the Lake as being Satan's PERMANENT fate.

Why would God use Satan to perfect the love of the many in the new earth if they were condemned for sins in this earth,

Never said any of mankind are condemned for sins. He who commits sin is OF THE DEVIL so it is obviously the DEVIL who presently SINS in the flesh of all mankind, Gods offspring, under which we are ALL presently "suffering."

the scripture says if men turn from evil then they will live for their righteousness, not be condemned for past sins [Ezek 18:21]

Now that depends on "which" men we are talking about now doesn't it? Even Satan is called a "man of sin."

God also says the trial by fire is PRECIOUS because it perfects love, so that is the purpose of the lake of fire , a loving purpose by a loving God ... and who is being perfected in it, Satan and the most evil men of all time , but god has removed those less evil, there is no-one left to prey upon, to benefit from, they all make their own lives a misery, it is not hard to seewhy God's plan works once He has removed the vulnerable, the simple, those easily preyed upon... evil is seen not to benefit the evil any more when those whom they preyed upon are not available and they just get preyed upon themselves... God's mercy extends to the ned of time, it does not end with the lake of fire ... but there is no more way out in death, and no hell any more, this is the final trial of evil and love to see which one these evil men and Satan accept in the end...

And again you have concocted a very "elaborate" fairy tale which does not exist.

There is NO NEED for "people" to be tossed into the Lake of Fire for "purifying." The CROSS took away SINS from MANKIND forever...never to be seen again...by His One Offering ALL mankind were made PERFECT FOREVER...

So Christian Universalist fairytales on this matter are FALSE. So NO, you will not have your little party with Jesus while the rest of humanity fries in the Lake of Fire...sorry to inform you of this matter.

Inevitably satan's suppost dwindles to nothing, and he sees he is no god at all, and returns to do homage to Jesus and the Father as the prodigal son of God... just as Jesus says ALL created things will fo himage to him as their Lord, obeying his command to love God and love others...

Oh? Where is THAT PART again? Didja just MAKE IT UP out of thin air???

So please read this scripture this time, read what it says in Jesus' own mouth , I canot seriously post it again and have you ignore that it does show that Satan, as a created being will accept Jesus as Lord, all that is required to be saved, redeemed to spirit :-

I'd be quite content to believe that IF IT EXISTED somewhere other than your own particular FANTASY...

Revelation 5:13 And, every created thing which was in heaven, and upon the earth, and under the earth, and upon the sea, and, all the things in them, heard I, sayingUnto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb, be the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the dominion, unto the ages of ages!

With "exceptions" as "specifically noted."

You see "SATANIC SALVATION" does not exist anywhere "specifically" for Satan or his devils. We do have specific scripture for that NOT being the case.

You hasve been misled by the poor translations we have of scripture... just do the work and recover the original meaning of 'aion' , the clue is in our usage of the word 'aeon', an age, a long ,but finite, period of time ...

Uh, NO...there just happens to be NOT ONE SPECIFIC SCRIPTURE that grants SATAN OR DEVILS salvation...and MANY that state quite the opposite.

The universe was apparently created from nothing at all ... its energy and eventually matter and people, borrowed from the gravity which we observe as a force ... so there is no problem with God's detroying every 'thing' that is matter or energy , they simply return to the nothing they came from... and God can create a new earth and destroy it the same way ,

You know, out of one side of your mouth you preach salvation for "all created things" and then out of the other you OPENLY CONCEED that many things will be PERMANENTLY destroyed....

So which IS IT?

sniping the balance of this post to see if you step up to the plate of truth on these matters...

enjoy!

squint

squint · Oct 9, 2007

armothe said:
That's right, but God causing suffering is not sin. There is a difference - and this difference is relevant to the original question.

Did God create evil?

Look, God can "create" ANYTHING and not be the SAME AS that which HE created...and that includes EVIL...get it?

You seem to have an incessant desire to blame "mankind" and their "choices" for EVIL as if it just popped up all of it's own accord, and to "exonerate" "your version" of God for some reason....

God could have certainly created mankind PERFECT ENOUGH to NOT SIN now couldn't HE have? (uh, see Jesus for an example.)

enjoy!

squint

stranger · Oct 9, 2007

armothe said:
That's right, but God causing suffering is not sin. There is a difference - and this difference is relevant to the original question.

Did God create evil?

If you are talking about sufferings, calamities, ill-fortunes then yes, God created evil.

If you are talking about evil in the sense of sin and wickedness then no, mankind brought that about on their own due to their ability to make their own choices and either external or internal temptations.

When you say "all evil" is created by God - that includes wickedness & sin - which makes it an untrue statement because God does not create wickedness & sin.

-A

Again, there is no indication whatever that the popular largely 'Western' myth that mankind is not determinate is true, certainly the bible says otherwise in unambiguous ways... pouring pagan myths into christian religion is popular ever since the Roman take-over ,but it simply makes the religion false... Mankind is not independent of God and thus our choices are not, nor is there any evidence that our choices are random , so they are not independent from observational data ... there simply is no justification for this pagan [Greek?] myth that has however taken over the whole structure of society and religion ... God has said who will be saved first by means of His giving all truth to the ones He chose beforehand, and not giving it to others , there is absoilutely nothing men can do to change that , all the choices we make are moved by the spirit for good or evil .. so the world is simply God's demo that He is right, it is not up for debate or for anything to go wrong at any stage :- Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? Why would you believe Greek myths in philosophy and reject the scripture ? All God does is present men with His truth, it is enough to determine their will to love .. God is not forcing anyone, He just knows that if told the truth these men will become loving...it is determinate then , not free, not random...

armothe · Oct 9, 2007

squint said:
[/i][/b] Look, God can "create" ANYTHING and not be the SAME AS that which HE created...and that includes EVIL...get it?[/quote]

Sounds like we both agree that God is neither evil nor performs wicked acts.

-A

armothe · Oct 9, 2007

stranger said:
Again, there is no indication whatever that the popular largely 'Western' myth that mankind is not determinate is true,

The bible supports predestination in a limited sense. There were some people who were predestined towards a cause - but that hardly speaks for every person that ever existed. So no, the Bible does not support a universal predestination of mankind.

-A

stranger · Oct 9, 2007

armothe said:
The bible supports predestination in a limited sense. There were some people who were predestined towards a cause - but that hardly speaks for every person that ever existed. So no, the Bible does not support a universal predestination of mankind.

-A

I think you missed the point, if the few are predestinated to be the only ones taken first, then the many are equally predestinated not to be first [but to be saved later as Jesus says Rev 7:9-10]

armothe · Oct 10, 2007

stranger said:
I think you missed the point, if the few are predestinated to be the only ones taken first, then the many are equally predestinated not to be first [but to be saved later as Jesus says Rev 7:9-10]

I would say thats an assumption. But I'm looking at this from an entirely different perspective, so I can see why you would believe that.

-A

squint · Oct 10, 2007

armothe said:
squint said:

[/i][/b] Look, God can "create" ANYTHING and not be the SAME AS that which HE created...and that includes EVIL...get it?[/quote]

Sounds like we both agree that God is neither evil nor performs wicked acts.

-A

Click to expand...

They call this observation one of [commission] OR [omisson] in the study of Theodicy (how can evil exist simultaneously with a theoretically Perfect God) and the later [omission] meaning that IF God Is Great Enough to intervene and DIDN'T then God remains implicated in any case.

Some forms of logic will lead to the conclusion that IF God wipes away every action of evil and makes good or even perfect come about by both the "making" and the "allowance" of EVIL, THEN God is completely exonerated and even HAILED for His Divine Brilliance.

So let's take this to practical applications....

Adversity (could mean also having evil placed upon us) FOSTERS HOPE to be formed "in us" by the use of that EVIL by God, so in this manner and matter, EVIL can legitimately be "used" as a TOOL to promote HOPE which is an Eternal Quality of God that He chooses to "share" with us via the tool of ADVERSITY or the use of an ADVERSARY.

Let's take another application...

Romans 11:32 SAYS that God bound ALL MANKIND to "disobedience" SO THAT He may have MERCY upon those same ALL.

So again, the use of "disobedience" which is Gods Own Binding that HE placed upon mankind, and that very real BINDING is and will be used BY GOD for and in the BENEFIT OF all mankind to actually "experience" DIVINE MERCY...and mankind in general will not while here DISCERN the difference between themselves and the DISOBEDIENCE that they have ALL surely been bound with....

They ALL will have a very pleasant surprise at the ending of their lives because they WILL experience DIVINE MERCY as a first hand experience....

WHEW!

Now, no matter how "good" of a choice you may "think" you make, the fact of the matters ARE that you and I have been bound by God in the FLESH with INDWELLING SIN which is OF THE DEVIL and this is simply a scriptural fact beyond any denial.

A child of God will ARRIVE into the TRUTH of this fact IF God grants them the gift of HONESTY...

And when you see and take hold of that GIFT of being personally HONEST...

THEN

You will know that YOU are not the SAME AS what you have been bound with in the flesh, NOR is any other person of MANKIND the "same as" what THEY have been bound with in the flesh.

At that time, IF God "allows" you as His Child to arrive in this life to that understanding you will be ENABLED to LOVE ALL YOUR NEIGHBORS as yourself, and QUIT BLAMING AND CONDEMNING THEM for their "bad choices" understanding that THE DEVIL is also working disobedience upon THEM ALSO as Gods offspring....

And this understanding is what I share, DAILY, with as many as I can...in the HOPE that HIS LOVE GROWS in "honesty" among all of us and in OPEN RESISTANCE TO the devil and his messengers who MANipulate our fellow man as SLAVES...

May you join in the sharing of honest love, gained hope, and the distribution of THE GOOD NEWS for all mankind....in anticipation for the DELIVERANCE of DIVINE MERCY....

Remember this, -everyone who dies is released from SIN....Romans 6:7

enjoy!

squint

stranger · Oct 10, 2007

armothe said:
I would say thats an assumption. But I'm looking at this from an entirely different perspective, so I can see why you would believe that.

-A

Please explain your perspective... my only assumption is the persistence of number of individulas... if I had ten marbles in a bag and am sure that Have taken out three, then I am equally sure that there are seven in the bag ... the only assumption is one we make without need to qualify it because we all make that assumption, do we not???

stranger · Oct 10, 2007

God could have certainly created mankind PERFECT ENOUGH to NOT SIN now couldn't HE have? (uh, see Jesus for an example.)

It wasn't the craetion of Jesus that caused him not to sin, but the spirit baptism ... note that Satan was alos not allowed to tempt Jesus until after his baptism of the spirit ... there is then precious trial of faith after baptism of the spirit, called by John the baptist 'baptism of fire' ... the perfection of love by adversity. the chastening by God of all whom He loves...

Now it is obvious that all men do NOT receive baptism of the spirit in this life since most men die without all knowledge of God's truth [John 16:13]

So men will be baptised after death who did not become saints in this life ... anyone who dies a sinner then is promised by God to come to know all truth after the second resurrection,[John 16:13]

but a sinner at death is not just , not perfected in love, not baptised with fire , before death ... ,thus it is God who decides who will be redeemed at Jesus' returmn and who will not, simply bt who He baptises now, who later ...

That is not to imply that all who are baptised of the spirit make it thRough trial of faith in life, there are many failures ... who are then even worse off than before they were baptised because they bel;ieve they know better than God even when they know all His truth...

Thus the trial of Jesus was a real trial , and God was truly pleased by his success in showing the way of love, rejecting all sin, which all men must tread eventually... the listake almost all men make is to think that all men must tread it in this life oR somehow mysteriously get 'mislaid' by God... or more bizarrely many believe that men can become eternal and continue 'forever 'rejecting God , that God would still be God if some of His craetion rejected Him and found another way of eternal life ...

Satan would clearly have won his assertion if God were not able to save all creation, which is why the scripture says explicitly that every craeted being will accept Jesus' dominion, Jesus as their lord, and so obey him [unlike most christians today, who disobey him by sinnin, not loving, and still wildly pretend that he is their 'lord' ... Jesus commanded to be obeyed, not to be disobeyed , those who continue to sin will be rejected as he says very clearly ... but everyone starts afresh after death, death is freedom fRom sin, the wages of sin are paid in death ... there is nothing else to pay except the deep regret of repentance when one finds out how many people were hurt by one's sin besides oneself....

squint · Oct 11, 2007

stranger said:
It wasn't the craetion of Jesus that caused him not to sin, but the spirit baptism ... note that Satan was alos not allowed to tempt Jesus until after his baptism of the spirit ... there is then precious trial of faith after baptism of the spirit, called by John the baptist 'baptism of fire' ... the perfection of love by adversity. the chastening by God of all whom He loves...

Now it is obvious that all men do NOT receive baptism of the spirit in this life since most men die without all knowledge of God's truth [John 16:13]

While it is obviously true that not all mankind confess Jesus in this present life, I remain hardpressed to believe that there is a single individual who has not loved in some way and in some fashion, and IF that is the case, THEN that person knows God and is born of God...regardless of what they have painted across their lips regarding these matters. The only thing that counts is LOVE, and His to us is Love.

So men will be baptised after death who did not become saints in this life ... anyone who dies a sinner then is promised by God to come to know all truth after the second resurrection,[John 16:13]

And that presentation is merely that which is "in you" making your fellow mankind, those whom you have been commanded to love, counting sins against mankind. Sorry, that is not Gods Truth or His Way. God in Christ was reconciling the "world" unto Himself NOT COUNTING SINS against THEM. I sincerely hope you get this someday in this present life as Gods child, but I also understand the "resistance" that is in all mankind to believe or to accept that is the case. No, unfortunately just the opposite.

but a sinner at death is not just , not perfected in love, not baptised with fire , before death ... ,thus it is God who decides who will be redeemed at Jesus' returmn and who will not, simply bt who He baptises now, who later ...

Jesus died for ALL and by His One Offering ALL mankind were made perfect forever, even while in the process of being perfected, an ongoing working.

Only hypocrites and lawyers justify themselves in the name of Jesus and condemn other people as "sinners."

That is not to imply that all who are baptised of the spirit make it thRough trial of faith in life, there are many failures ... who are then even worse off than before they were baptised because they bel;ieve they know better than God even when they know all His truth...

Yes, sadly, those who do not love quickly fall into various types of mud. It is not my job to beat them.

Thus the trial of Jesus was a real trial , and God was truly pleased by his success in showing the way of love, rejecting all sin, which all men must tread eventually... the listake almost all men make is to think that all men must tread it in this life oR somehow mysteriously get 'mislaid' by God... or more bizarrely many believe that men can become eternal and continue 'forever 'rejecting God , that God would still be God if some of His craetion rejected Him and found another way of eternal life ...

My prior observations in this matter from scripture is that it is not mankind that sins, but the devil who has sway over the flesh and minds of those who do not know of differentiate themselves from that working and the workers of sin, the devil and his messengers. You are no exception, nor am I. But this does not make us or any person the "same as" them.

When the disciples asked Jesus this question about those who would not receive Him:

"Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?"

this was His response, and rightfully so:

"he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them."

Satan would clearly have won his assertion if God were not able to save all creation, which is why the scripture says explicitly that every craeted being will accept Jesus' dominion,

As pointed out to you repeatedly, there is no scripture that says specifically that Satan will "accept" Jesus and be "saved." And many of course present the opposite. That the "opposer" will be put away along with that entire class of resistors.

If you were allowed to perceive "THEIR WORLD" overlaid upon mankind you would stop condemning your fellow man.

Jesus as their lord, and so obey him [unlike most christians today, who disobey him by sinnin, not loving, and still wildly pretend that he is their 'lord' ... Jesus commanded to be obeyed, not to be disobeyed , those who continue to sin will be rejected as he says very clearly ... but everyone starts afresh after death, death is freedom fRom sin, the wages of sin are paid in death ... there is nothing else to pay except the deep regret of repentance when one finds out how many people were hurt by one's sin besides oneself....

Why is it you cannot divide your fellow man from what we are ALL bound with? Sorry, but that method still reeks of false judgment upon your neighbors.

enjoy!

squint

stranger · Oct 11, 2007

squint said:
While it is obviously true that not all mankind confess Jesus in this present life, I remain hardpressed to believe that there is a single individual who has not loved in some way and in some fashion, and IF that is the case, THEN that person knows God and is born of God...regardless of what they have painted across their lips regarding these matters. The only thing that counts is LOVE, and His to us is Love.

I would agree that God's law of love would apparenmtly not be totally silenced in anyone , not even in Satan himself , despite the inordinate powers of denial men have , ability to live in total paradox with our own deepest desire to love ... nevertheless it is the reality of love that distinguishes the saints, not deeply hidden desire to love that occasionally may surface..... the saints have to love continually and toward all men and toward God ... no sin at all any longer in their lives ... that is the differenece upon which Jesus divided men at his return...

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

And that presentation is merely that which is "in you" making your fellow mankind, those whom you have been commanded to love, counting sins against mankind. Sorry, that is not Gods Truth or His Way. God in Christ was reconciling the "world" unto Himself NOT COUNTING SINS against THEM. I sincerely hope you get this someday in this present life as Gods child, but I also understand the "resistance" that is in all mankind to believe or to accept that is the case. No, unfortunately just the opposite.

The reconciliation is acheievd progressively, only very few are saved at Jesus return, enough to make a perfect priesthood to continue the redemption in the kingdom come ... but one is not redeemed if one continues in sin, one must be baptised by fire to perfect one's love even after baptsm of the spirit, and all this during life before death , whether in this life before first daeth, or in the new earth before a second death to free one from sin yet again because one did not accept spirit baptism when given to all flesh [Joel 2::28]

Jesus died for ALL and by His One Offering ALL mankind were made perfect forever, even while in the process of being perfected, an ongoing working.

Only hypocrites and lawyers justify themselves in the name of Jesus and condemn other people as "sinners."

Maybe so, but i have never justified myself in any name , nor condemned any sinner ... simply pointed out what jesus has said, that he will reject thse who are still sinners by his return... it is not my judgment, it is his :-

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

My prior observations in this matter from scripture is that it is not mankind that sins, but the devil who has sway over the flesh and minds of those who do not know of differentiate themselves from that working and the workers of sin, the devil and his messengers. You are no exception, nor am I. But this does not make us or any person the "same as" them.

The devil tempts men, but it is men who do the sinning in response to that temptation, albeit they were lied to , or subtly decieved , promised lasting pleasure by implication which they never got , only hopeless addiction to more and more sin that only God can cure, when He will [not when we see , but when it suits God's plan for redeeming all creation]

When the disciples asked Jesus this question about those who would not receive Him:

"Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?"

this was His response, and rightfully so:

"he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them."

But most men are svaed through death and resurrection freeing them from sin nonetheless ... fire from God is simply God's answer to those who do not accept His truth AFTER spiriit baptism...

As pointed out to you repeatedly, there is no scripture that says specifically that Satan will "accept" Jesus and be "saved." And many of course present the opposite. That the "opposer" will be put away along with that entire class of resistors.

As I pointed out there is , and indeedmany such scriptures, and you have not cited any scripture that supports your claim , whereas I have cited mine three times , enough for anyone but you it would seem ...

If you were allowed to perceive "THEIR WORLD" overlaid upon mankind you would stop condemning your fellow man.

I have condemned no-one my friend, i am not the judge, Jesus is ... and I have simply pointed out what he says ...

Why is it you cannot divide your fellow man from what we are ALL bound with? Sorry, but that method still reeks of false judgment upon your neighbors.

Read it in your own bible my friend, it is not my judgment, but god's judgment , not voiced by me, but written long before I was born...

Please stop making this mistake over and over, we are discussing what God has had written, not ourselves...

accusing Jesus of false judgment is a road to nowhere... so rather read what he says and accept it and stoip projectng it onto me... I only pointed out what he says, i did not write it, did not make its judgment upon sinners...

armothe · Oct 12, 2007

stranger said:
Please explain your perspective...

It has more to do with eschatology than anything, and I believe discussion on the topic is currently banned. But it would reasonably explain why I don't believe every person is predestined, rather only the limited few mentioned in the Bible.

-A

armothe · Oct 12, 2007

squint said:
armothe said:

Adversity (could mean also having evil placed upon us) FOSTERS HOPE to be formed "in us" by the use of that EVIL by God, so in this manner and matter, EVIL can legitimately be "used" as a TOOL to promote HOPE which is an Eternal Quality of God that He chooses to "share" with us via the tool of ADVERSITY or the use of an ADVERSARY.

Click to expand...

Well, we are sort of on the main page. Except I believe God simply allows for wickedness, He doesn't cause it.
Here is a quick outline of my reasoning:

- God does not tempt man - James 1:13
- Satan is called "the tempter" - Mat 4:1, 3; Mk 1:13; 1 Corin 7:5; 1 Chron 21:1; 1 Thes 3:5
- Temptation also comes from our own lusts - James 2:14, 15; 1 John 2:16
- God never allows us to be tempted beyond our ability - 1 Corin 10:13
- Satan must request permission of God to come against us - Job 1:12
- The primary purpose of temptation, is to "perfect" us - Job 23:10; Jas 1:1-4
- We have the choice of what to do with each temptation - Jas 1:12; Revel 3:11
- Temptation can be overcome by faith - 1 Pet 5:9; 1 Jn 5:4
- Temptation can be overcome by God's Word - Mat 4; Luke 4
- Temptation can be overcome by prayer - Mat 6:13; Lu 22:40, 46
- Jesus was tempted in every way we are - Heb 4:15
- Jesus never yielded to temptation - Jn 8:29; 14:30; 2 Corin 5:21; Heb 4:15; 7:26; 10:7 1 Pet 2:22; 1:19; 1 Jn 3:5
- Jesus Christ is qualified to be an understanding Mediator - Heb 2:17,18

-A

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